182 réponses à ce sujet

[prizm123]

what if TIM knew about the Reapers before Sovereign and ME1 and everything he has done has been in preperation for their return to fight them? would that change anyone's mind?

[Arijharn]

That's an interesting thought I guess, but I'm not sure how that would change my view on him.

[Zulu_DFA]

prizm123 wrote...

what if TIM knew about the Reapers before Sovereign and ME1 and everything he has done has been in preperation for their return to fight them? would that change anyone's mind?

Mass Effect: Ascention clearly confirms that TIM had not known about the Reapers prior to the Battle of Citadel. And even for some time after that he continued to pursue his idee fixe of creating of super-biotic human. He sent a strike team to the Migrant Fleet to recapture Gillian Grayson about the same time Shepard was being blown up by the Collectors.

But by the time Shepard wakes up, that is in 2 years TIM knows an awful lot about the Reapers. More than Shepard, in fact, because everything Shepard reported to Anderson seems to have become known to TIM, but he hasn't been confining himself to just that. He reacts to this new information quickly and adequately and adds tons of new data to the pattern.

TIM is the right man for the job.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 mai 2010 - 09:39 .

[Mangalores]

When you tell them the Collector's are abducting colonists the Turian councillor says, "The Terminus Systems are outside our jurisdiction, your colonists knew this when they left Council space."  Which is politic for "Go **** yourself with a railway spike we aren't gonna do a thing."  You reinstatement is, as Anderson points out, symbollic, they may as well have given you a gold star.

So what? They don't give Spectres much help overall, they expect the Spectres to be capable to do much on their own. Giving someone back this title that only a handful of operatives get is a wee more than a gold star on the political front even if it is from a military perspective not the same as a cruiser squadron.

It's not their border, it's not even their colonies, they have no reason to take action beyond it being their people.

Countries and governments rarely wait until something spills over onto their territory. Human colonies are their border wether in their jurisdiction or not because they either want them in their jurisdiction or do the simple math that something beating up those human colonies will soon be beating up theirs. As the Alliance is the only human political entity its leadership claim will always be measured how well they can defend all humans regardless of stuff like borders => even if those verge colonies deny official membership with the alliance they are special interest to a political entity representing mankind in intergalactic affairs.

Could be, we don't know enough to be sure, but it sounds plausible at least.

Kaidan/Ash were official sent there so we actually know what their official mission was. The installment of defense systems is also pretty obvious and it's implausible that Anderson had some stashed away or could tell anyone in the Alliance to go out there and militarize a neutral colony. Even as Council member he wouldn't have authority to do so.

No if nobody stands up to act and speak for a group they give anyone who does the right to.  For example say you and 9 other people are trapped in a room.  While the other 9 are wailing about how they'll never get out and generally panicking you take charge and start organizing people to try and get out.  Now what gave you the right to do that?  The fact that nobody in the room took charge, and no legitimate authority from outside was present, is what gave you the right.

My point was more: They are not organizing anyone but themselves and they can't tell anyone but themselves. Having a right is thus meaningless because they are supposedly a covert terrorist organization who doesn't inform anyone of their doings either way or seek legitimization for their action. They obviously didn't seek legitimization for their criminal activities before the Collectors so it's kind of a loophole to use that threat post facto.

In your scenario my right would quickly evaporate if I'm a known mass murderer and use one or two guys in the room and get them killed without them having a say in what danger they are taking.

Alternatively, Batman.   What gives Batman the right to go out at night and beat the tar out of thugs and criminals?  The fact that nobody else can/will.

Watch the Dark Knight. It kinda boils down to him actually not having any such right. It's kinda a theme in that particular comic that it actually asks that question. But I get what you want to say.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Well, i'll blow up the base. every single time. I don't like cerberus to much, though i'm not a big fan about the ignorant ass council and the alliance either, but i'm picking the lesser of the two evils.

[SupidSeep]

I don't like Cerberus and I expect TIM to backstab anyone if it would get him what he wanted. However, I don't like wasteful destruction and blowing up the base is downright wasteful. So I save the base.

And since it's Cerberus and TIM who sponsored Shepard into getting to the base while the Council and Alliance sat on their hands and said Shepard made everything up about the Reapers, I rather give it to TIM.

And if the Council and Alliance have anything to say about it, I would simply tell them "You didn't bring me back from the grave to continue the fight. You didn't do anything worth squat about the kidnapping of human colonists. You didn't give me a new ship and resources to fight the Collectors. You better not expect me to give you anything from the Collector base if I don't want to."

Not denying there could be something bad about keeping the base - maybe the Reapers would still have some control of it. If the base do turn out to become dangerous I would nuke it in a heartbeat - but til then it's a potential asset that could be useful and turning it to scrap unnecessarily is utterly stupid and wasteful.

[DPSSOC]

Mangalores wrote...

When you tell them the Collector's are abducting colonists the Turian councillor says, "The Terminus Systems are outside our jurisdiction, your colonists knew this when they left Council space."  Which is politic for "Go **** yourself with a railway spike we aren't gonna do a thing."  You reinstatement is, as Anderson points out, symbollic, they may as well have given you a gold star.

So what? They don't give Spectres much help overall, they expect the Spectres to be capable to do much on their own. Giving someone back this title that only a handful of operatives get is a wee more than a gold star on the political front even if it is from a military perspective not the same as a cruiser squadron.

From a military perspective it's not the same as a pointy stick.  They're doing nothing, they're going to continue to do nothing, and the fact they gave you back your Spectre status is worth nothing because they demand you work in the Terminus where they have no authority.

Mangalores wrote...

Could be, we don't know enough to be sure, but it sounds plausible at least.

Kaidan/Ash were official sent there so we actually know what their official mission was. The installment of defense systems is also pretty obvious and it's implausible that Anderson had some stashed away or could tell anyone in the Alliance to go out there and militarize a neutral colony. Even as Council member he wouldn't have authority to do so.

Yes Kaidan/Ash were on an official mission but we're given no evidence that a previous investigation had been conducted.  It's entirely possible the Alliance was aware of the disappearances, wrote them off as pirates and slavers, and didn't investigate at all.  Then when they receive rumours that Cerberus is behind the abductions and Horizon is next, they send Kaidan/Ash there and that's the start, and end, of their investigation into the colonies.  Your theory could be right, and the Kaidan/Ash mission could have been the latest in a long investigation into the disappearances, but we don't know enough to be sure

Mangalores wrote...

No if nobody stands up to act and speak for a group they give anyone who does the right to.  For example say you and 9 other people are trapped in a room.  While the other 9 are wailing about how they'll never get out and generally panicking you take charge and start organizing people to try and get out.  Now what gave you the right to do that?  The fact that nobody in the room took charge, and no legitimate authority from outside was present, is what gave you the right.

My point was more: They are not organizing anyone but themselves and they can't tell anyone but themselves. Having a right is thus meaningless because they are supposedly a covert terrorist organization who doesn't inform anyone of their doings either way or seek legitimization for their action. They obviously didn't seek legitimization for their criminal activities before the Collectors so it's kind of a loophole to use that threat post facto.

True, but my comment was in response to someone asking what gave Cerberus the right, having the right may be meaningless for a covert criminal group but they still have it.

Mangalores wrote...
In your scenario my right would quickly evaporate if I'm a known mass murderer and use one or two guys in the room and get them killed without them having a say in what danger they are taking.

Probably yes, but until someone steps up to replace you, or kills you, what you do after taking charge isn't important.  You have the right to take charge and organize those people until someone takes it away from you either by competition (also asserting their right to take charge forcing a split in the remaining people) or force (bashing your head against a wall).

Mangalores wrote...

Alternatively, Batman.   What gives Batman the right to go out at night and beat the tar out of thugs and criminals?  The fact that nobody else can/will.

Watch the Dark Knight. It kinda boils down to him actually not having any such right. It's kinda a theme in that particular comic that it actually asks that question. But I get what you want to say.

Scene it, own it, love it.  I think though that we're viewing it in a different light.  To me the film shows that Batman has the right to do what he's doing because he can and will without opposition or competition (Harvey Dent says pretty much that durring the dinner scene).  Only when the Joker makes it dangerous to the people for him to have that right do they try to take it away.  So again Batman has the right until somebody has the balls to try and take it from him.

Ill admit my view is somewhat coloured by my bias that everyone has the right to do whatever they want including stopping people from doing whatever they want.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 24 mai 2010 - 06:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Loyalty to Cerberus seems counterproductive to me. It's a movement for a cause, and the people who join up (should) know that the cause (humanity) comes before the people (humans) in it. Being loyal to the cause, not the organization, is the better choice.

At the same time, Cerberus is sincere about the cause it advocates. For better and worse, it is honest: you can find some of what it does in the name of humanity abhorrent, but that doesn't negate the gains they have made.

Cererus is, for the most part, consistent, and so is TIM. It isn't a mercenary group out for money or power for power's own sake, and it isn't a KKK/Gestapo/definition-of-racist racist group which believes aliens are inherently inferior in capability and thought, thus justifying whatever. Cerberus is an ideological group that believes in human preservation and advancement at all costs. The obvious aspect of that is that they will do great things (sometimes great and terrible). The forgotten aspect is that they'll also willingly (prefer to, often) do less costly things. They don't do all costs all the time for the heck of it. If the costs outweight the benefit, then at all costs isn't called for.

As long as what you're doing is for the greater benefit of humanity, Cerberus will back you. TIM brought you back and throws everything behind you even if you hate his guts because Shepard is a symbol vital for humanity's advancement and defense against the Reapers. That's true regardless of the end-game ME2 choice, or whatever loyalty you have to Cerberus: putting the galaxy first as a tide to raise all boats is still advancing humanity just as surely as picking up humanity's boat alone.

But on the flip side, if you aren't advancing Humanity, or the time comes that risking you advances humanity more than what you're already doing (or, alternatively, not risking you endangers humanity more), then Cerberus will turn on you. But this is predictable.

So don't bother being loyal to Cerberus, or to TIM, because there's no point. They'll only appreciate you in so much as it makes you a more reliable (and useful) asset. If you want to keep a strong relationship with them, just be useful to them, and ideally be more useful alive than dead. That will get you more from them... like being brought back from the dead.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 mai 2010 - 06:47 .