127 réponses à ce sujet

[edgarcabrerauk]

flagondotcom wrote...

Zy-El wrote...

The patch team is working on the patch.  The DLC teams continue to develop and release DLC's.  You seem to think they only have 1 team of 3 programmers working out of a garage.  Bioware devs are working on the patch and new DLC's at THE SAME TIME.

And how do you know how long it would take to fix these bugs?  Are you a programmer?  Have you ever tried to debug someone else's code.  The majority of bugs are on the consoles.  A third party did the code conversion to the consoles - not Bioware.  It's hard enough fixing your own bugs, but it takes even much longer to fix someone else's bugs.  And then they have to get these bug fixes past $ony, Micro$oft and None-tendo. 

I'm a programmer.  The issue is not how many teams are working on what--I agree that not everyone working on DLC could be shifted to working on patches, since that's a "mythical man month" problem (not every programmer/developer has the right skill set to work on patches, and adding more people not familiar with the current code means that someone who *is* familiar will have to take time away from coding to explain what  parts of the code do...because code is *never* documented well enough.)

The majority of the bugs are *not* on the consoles.  There are *plenty* of bugs that are cross platform.

More importantly, some (most?) of the cross-platform bugs are likely not even in "programmer" code but rather in "game" scripts etc.  that logically have more in common with the things a DLC team would be working than they do with memory management/CTD issues.  Example 1:  Approval bugs in Awakening.  Example 2:  Stealing doesn't work properly in 1.03.  Example 3:  Trap detection is broken for the PC (but only the PC) in Origins.

Most importantly, there are a *long* list of non-gamebreaking but annoying bugs that are fixed through mods on PC...and even though I play on PC, why should I have to install all the mods in the world when the fixes are ALREADY KNOWN. 

I consistently bought DLC before 1.03, and even bought ME and ME2 (which I've not played), but will pay for no more BW products until they make a good-faith effort at fixing the bugs that already exist.

And Darkspawn Chronicles is nothing more than a "minimal effort for maximum reward" moneygrab.  The Mabari Chronicles will be next, since those could also be done with no voice actors and no new maps.

Not happy.

This member knows what he's talking about... and he knows (I think) that in a software development project, when the original developer/programmers should be fixing the product they've done and the original team is taken away  to create another product, it means that the priority is the new product... leaving the first one into the freezer... and according Mr. Woo words  there is not responsibility or whatsoever to patch a defective product...

FIY, Mr. Woo, the EULA stands purely to defend the creative work, because on the early days of software development, the source code was delivered and the client used to change it, usually against the developer... because 30 years ago, there was not copyright on software. the EULA enforces the final user to accept the product "as is" on the grounds to not to change and modify, it never states to accept a DEFECTIVE product " AS IS"... you don't have to be Sherlock to realise that, do you?

Modifié par edgarcabrerauk, 19 mai 2010 - 08:36 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

You know what. Bioware could really save us all some aggro and release an update to the toolset, so that the gods of the modding community can fix these problems within a day or week, that supposedly, are taking an entire development team months to fix.



Ok, so patches aren't profitable, they would rather spend their efforts working on crap DLC to release for more money. Fair nuff. Then at least update the toolset so those who care about the game they already own and want to play can fix the damned thing.



I mean, hell, it was like within a week someone had fixed the problem of the stealing bug.

[Haexpane]

edgarcabrerauk wrote...

  it never states to accept a DEFECTIVE product " AS IS"... you don't have to be Sherlock to realise that, do you?

Ever use a Windows PC or an Apple computer?   Then you already know what it means to be locked into defective software and have no power to do anything about it.

People complain like DAO is the only software to ever have a bug, that is laughably fanboish at best.

[edgarcabrerauk]

Haexpane wrote...

edgarcabrerauk wrote...

  it never states to accept a DEFECTIVE product " AS IS"... you don't have to be Sherlock to realise that, do you?

Ever use a Windows PC or an Apple computer?   Then you already know what it means to be locked into defective software and have no power to do anything about it.

People complain like DAO is the only software to ever have a bug, that is laughably fanboish at best.

As you know, MS and Apple release patches  in a timely manner...

I wish I can laugh at your "fanbosih" but it is pathetic...

Modifié par edgarcabrerauk, 19 mai 2010 - 09:22 .

[Zy-El]

edgarcabrerauk wrote...

Zy-El wrote...

The patch team is working on the patch.  The DLC teams continue to develop and release DLC's.  You seem to think they only have 1 team of 3 programmers working out of a garage.  Bioware devs are working on the patch and new DLC's at THE SAME TIME.

And how do you know how long it would take to fix these bugs?  Are you a programmer?  Have you ever tried to debug someone else's code.  The majority of bugs are on the consoles.  A third party did the code conversion to the consoles - not Bioware.  It's hard enough fixing your own bugs, but it takes even much longer to fix someone else's bugs.  And then they have to get these bug fixes past $ony, Micro$oft and None-tendo. 

Ehem, and it does seem that you are not a programmer either, not to mention the lack of knowledge in an software development organisation... first, its been mentioned in other posts, there is a team developing DLC and another team fixing patches... yes they work at THE SAME TIME with DIFFERENT PEOPLE AT DIFFERENT TASKS... capitols are just to remark, of course...

Yes, I know there are different teams assigned to different tasks.  Each team separate from another.

Second.On regards the third party code conversion, usually if you contract a company (BW contracting Edge of Reality) to wrap your product (DAO & DAA), that company is working with your product (BW product i.e. DAO&DAA) if the wrapping do not work, you (BW) must ask and pressure your contractor (Edge of Reality) to do it as it's been stated in a contract... you (BW) do not have to fix your contractor bugs (Edge of Reality)...

Did you ever consider perhaps that Edge of Reality is no longer on contract to Bioware and perhaps that is why Bioware is having so many problems fixing the bugs.  I said perhaps - as in conjecture.  If Bioware can hide behind the EULA, why not a third-party?  Somewhat fitting - wouldn't you say?

ah, just remember EA is not different of BW, EA is BW, if anyone here has the details on  that merging, the contractor agreement and the project reports of the different projects going on from EA/BW and third parties, please post them here.... but you cannot because of the NDA, which is a standard in the software industry. Of course I just talk based on the experience...  and it is sensible to talk with solid knowledge, but neither you nor me are employees of EA/BW

So far I only have knowledge of DAO & DAA on PC/PS3 and Xbox... if you mean  "None-tendo" as no entiendo=I do not understand, that pretty much explains your whole post.

Why are you taking this so personally?  I'm stating my opinion - we can agree to disagree and walk away peacefully. 

Modifié par Zy-El, 19 mai 2010 - 09:21 .

[edgarcabrerauk]

Zy-El wrote...

Did you ever consider perhaps that Edge of Reality is no longer on contract to Bioware and perhaps that is why Bioware is having so many problems fixing the bugs.  I said perhaps - as in conjecture.  If Bioware can hide behind the EULA, why not a third-party?  Somewhat fitting - wouldn't you say?

I wish I could, but as it is managed in the industry, the EULA is the last resort... and still it has to come under lots of checks..

ah, just remember EA is not different of BW, EA is BW, if anyone here has the details on  that merging, the contractor agreement and the project reports of the different projects going on from EA/BW and third parties, please post them here.... but you cannot because of the NDA, which is a standard in the software industry. Of course I just talk based on the experience...  and it is sensible to talk with solid knowledge, but neither you nor me are employees of EA/BW

So far I only have knowledge of DAO & DAA on PC/PS3 and Xbox... if you mean  "None-tendo" as no entiendo=I do not understand, that pretty much explains your whole post.

Why are you taking this so personally?  I'm stating my opinion - we can agree to disagree and walk away peacefully. 

In the same logic, what does affect you and the people who play the game with no problem, to try to enhance and request a better game??... do this change your life, or make you lesser?... instead, to make it more enjoyable and granting? 

Modifié par edgarcabrerauk, 19 mai 2010 - 09:56 .

[Raider777]

I think they are very greedy to be charging 40.00 for the awakening. I got it for 29.00 on an Amazon lightning deal and I think it is worth 20.00 at the most. It doesn't compare to the awesomeness of the two GTA4 DLC's, but it is still pretty fun.

[Funkjoker]

I'll always find it interesting to see that ONE MAN of the community fixes all the small and tiny bugs which won't be officially adressed ever! I'm talking about Qwinn's fix pack here:

http://social.biowar...m/project/2563/

By using communities' work in official patches they can focus on technical issues the community can't fix. I'm delighted to see what patch 1.04 will offer compared to Qwinn's fixes (apart from technical and gameplay issues)

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 19 mai 2010 - 10:15 .

[Cardantus]

Zy-El wrote...

Since Origins was released, there have been 5 DLC's (SP, RtO, WK, FPG, DC) and 1 expansion (Awakening). The only one of these products that lacked party interaction was the most recent - DC - which is in a class all its own being an alternative reality module. Origins was released in Nov 2009 and over the last 7 months, we've received 6 add-on products. Are we spoiled or what?

I don't know what their release schedule is. Could it be that they just release DLC's as they become ready? My point is: there may be no rythme nor reason for the order in which they release their products. So, to say that each product being released in a certain order indicates a change in the game's vision is somewhat premature.

Supposedly, there's an Awakening DLC with Leliana in it due next or soon after the next DLC.

I don't measure quality by the number of products released.  For one thing, the business model is clearly to release lots of little bits of content so that they can charge far more than they could get away with if they tried to sell that amount of content in a single package.  For another, the actual quality of these releases has been sorely lacking compared with the base game.  So yeah, forgive me for not feeling spoiled by the half-done attempts to cash in on a great original release.

Modifié par Cardantus, 19 mai 2010 - 10:33 .

[pvpgirl]

Zy-El wrote...


Supposedly, there's an Awakening DLC with Leliana in it due next or soon after the next DLC.

Great.  No really.  That's just super.  Bring back the character I liked the least as a party member for Awakening, then bring back my 2nd least favorite character in a dlc.  Nothing against you Leliana fans.  I just don't care for needy chicks.

[Zy-El]

Cardantus wrote...

Zy-El wrote...
Since Origins was released, there have been 5 DLC's (SP, RtO, WK, FPG, DC) and 1 expansion (Awakening). The only one of these products that lacked party interaction was the most recent - DC - which is in a class all its own being an alternative reality module. Origins was released in Nov 2009 and over the last 7 months, we've received 6 add-on products. Are we spoiled or what?

I don't know what their release schedule is. Could it be that they just release DLC's as they become ready? My point is: there may be no rythme nor reason for the order in which they release their products. So, to say that each product being released in a certain order indicates a change in the game's vision is somewhat premature.

Supposedly, there's an Awakening DLC with Leliana in it due next or soon after the next DLC.

I don't measure quality by the number of products released.  For one thing, the business model is clearly to release lots of little bits of content so that they can charge far more than they could get away with if they tried to sell that amount of content in a single package.  For another, the actual quality of these releases has been sorely lacking compared with the base game.  So yeah, forgive me for not feeling spoiled by the half-done attempts to cash in on a great original release.

Well, then you have the freedom to NOT buy them.  I'd prefer this system of deployment as opposed to waiting 2 years for DA2 and it containing a lot of material I don't want.  At least, with DLC, I can pick and choose which components I want to add to my gaming experience.  I don't know what you're looking for, but I'm happy with the products I've purchased.

[Zy-El]

edgarcabrerauk wrote...

Zy-El wrote...
Did you ever consider perhaps that Edge of Reality is no longer on contract to Bioware and perhaps that is why Bioware is having so many problems fixing the bugs.  I said perhaps - as in conjecture.  If Bioware can hide behind the EULA, why not a third-party?  Somewhat fitting - wouldn't you say?

I wish I could, but as it is managed in the industry, the EULA is the last resort... and still it has to come under lots of checks..

ah, just remember EA is not different of BW, EA is BW, if anyone here has the details on  that merging, the contractor agreement and the project reports of the different projects going on from EA/BW and third parties, please post them here.... but you cannot because of the NDA, which is a standard in the software industry. Of course I just talk based on the experience...  and it is sensible to talk with solid knowledge, but neither you nor me are employees of EA/BW

So far I only have knowledge of DAO & DAA on PC/PS3 and Xbox... if you mean  "None-tendo" as no entiendo=I do not understand, that pretty much explains your whole post.

Why are you taking this so personally?  I'm stating my opinion - we can agree to disagree and walk away peacefully. 

In the same logic, what does affect you and the people who play the game with no problem, to try to enhance and request a better game??... do this change your life, or make you lesser?... instead, to make it more enjoyable and granting? 

Oh, for sure!  The game works for me for the most part and I count my blessings that I'm one of the "few".  However, DA is not perfect and there are noticeable bugs in the game - particularly Awakening.  And I support your efforts to bring these points to Bioware's attention. 

I'm just tired of reading the blatent hostility (not by you) that some posters have expressed - that type of message does not go over well with anyone and detracts from the original intent of the message in the reader's mind.  Bioware devs are people too. 

[Zy-El]

mcomommy wrote...

Zy-El wrote...
Supposedly, there's an Awakening DLC with Leliana in it due next or soon after the next DLC.

Great.  No really.  That's just super.  Bring back the character I liked the least as a party member for Awakening, then bring back my 2nd least favorite character in a dlc.  Nothing against you Leliana fans.  I just don't care for needy chicks.

If there's one companion in the DLC, there may be more than one.  Awakening had 2 or 3 companions reappear plus a few NPC's.  You never know?  To make the DLC sell better, is Leliana more marketable than Zevran?   Or maybe have them both?  We can only hope. 

[Seifz]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

I'll always find it interesting to see that ONE MAN of the community fixes all the small and tiny bugs which won't be officially adressed ever! I'm talking about Qwinn's fix pack here:

http://social.biowar...m/project/2563/

By using communities' work in official patches they can focus on technical issues the community can't fix. I'm delighted to see what patch 1.04 will offer compared to Qwinn's fixes (apart from technical and gameplay issues)

It's not just one man.  If you look at the end of that page, you'll see that he consulted with a number of other community members.

That said, while his fixes are great for Origins, we still have nothing for Awakening.  BioWare needs to step it up.

[Haexpane]

edgarcabrerauk wrote...

 
As you know, MS and Apple release patches  in a timely manner...

I wish I can laugh at your "fanbosih" but it is pathetic...

If you consider Windows 7 a "timely patch" for the pathetic Windows Vista  you must be QWAZY!

Patches for WIndows VISTA were SLOW coming and the product was released DEFECTIVE BY DESIGN

Generation 1 iPhones are worthless.  Stop spouting falsehoods.

[Haexpane]

I'm down for some awakenings patches. I prefer the level 20-30 game over the level 1-20 game anyway.



They just need to fix the broken scaling so level 20-30 is actually challenging on the consoles

[Sebiale]

*hums the Jeopardy theme while he waits*

[Lux]

They seem to be too focused on revenue at the moment. Anyhow, I'll be getting Awakening when they finally get to fix it.

[Zy-El]

Bioware has to be focused on revenue - that's the main purpose of any viable company. The only time they'll give out anything for free is when it can lead to more sales. In order to survive, they have to make money. Therefore, it is in Bioware's best interests to make a better product. The fact that DA is Game of the Year gives more impetus to dedicate resources to this project and I'm all the more happy for it.



The patch is being worked on - be patient . . . and start a new character!

[Seifz]

Zy-El wrote...

Bioware has to be focused on revenue - that's the main purpose of any viable company. The only time they'll give out anything for free is when it can lead to more sales. In order to survive, they have to make money. Therefore, it is in Bioware's best interests to make a better product. The fact that DA is Game of the Year gives more impetus to dedicate resources to this project and I'm all the more happy for it.

But that's not true.  Take a glance at Neverwinter Nights.  They provided patches for that game years after its release.  Indeed, patch 1.69 came long after new copies of the game were taken off the shelves at most stores.  BioWare, before EA, was a fantastic company that actually supported is products.  Did they make money?  Yeah, lots of it.

The patch is being worked on - be patient . . . and start a new character!

It's been months since we've had any news at all, even a "we're still working on it" post.  I understand that console patches are few and far between due to restrictions set by Microsoft and Sony, but the PC platfom has no such restrictions.  There's no reason to make us wait 3+ months for one giant patch when they could be releasing smaller patches to fix the major, game-breaking bugs in Awakening.

There's no point in starting a new character when both campaigns are bugged to hell right now.

[Zy-El]

Seifz wrote...

The patch is being worked on - be patient . . . and start a new character!

It's been months since we've had any news at all, even a "we're still working on it" post.  I understand that console patches are few and far between due to restrictions set by Microsoft and Sony, but the PC platfom has no such restrictions.  There's no reason to make us wait 3+ months for one giant patch when they could be releasing smaller patches to fix the major, game-breaking bugs in Awakening.

There's no point in starting a new character when both campaigns are bugged to hell right now.

It was only a couple weeks ago that one of the Bioware people confirmed that they are working on a patch . . . so, it has not been "months" since we've heard any news.  And they just recently released a patch for PS3.  The PC platform has the fewest bugs among all the platforms so I can only speculate that it would not warrant as much priorty - my speculation.

It may not be possible to make "smaller" patch.  Some bug fixes may require fixes to other bugs beforehand.  It's not a simple case of "see a bug, squash a bug" to use an anology.  It's better to take out the "nest of bugs" from where they're spawning.  And as many of use know, there are quick fixes to a lot of minor bugs provided by the modding community (Qwinn's fixpack comes to mind).

I know, I know what you're going to say . . . Bioware should not be relying on 3rd party, player-programmers to fix THEIR bugs but that is what it is.  And we who play on the PC are forever grateful we do!! 

[Seifz]

Zy-El wrote...

Seifz wrote...

The patch is being worked on - be patient . . . and start a new character!

It's been months since we've had any news at all, even a "we're still working on it" post.  I understand that console patches are few and far between due to restrictions set by Microsoft and Sony, but the PC platfom has no such restrictions.  There's no reason to make us wait 3+ months for one giant patch when they could be releasing smaller patches to fix the major, game-breaking bugs in Awakening.

There's no point in starting a new character when both campaigns are bugged to hell right now.

It was only a couple weeks ago that one of the Bioware people confirmed that they are working on a patch . . . so, it has not been "months" since we've heard any news.  And they just recently released a patch for PS3.  The PC platform has the fewest bugs among all the platforms so I can only speculate that it would not warrant as much priorty - my speculation.

I have not played the game on the 360 or the PS3.  I can say with certainty that the PC version suffers from multiple, major, game-breaking bugs.  Companions with impossible quests, a completely broken reputation system, and plot encounters that never happen are just some of them.  I needed to use the debug console to finish the game properly.  That is entirely unacceptable.

Regardless of the number of bugs that each platform might suffer from, the PC is the easiest to develop patches for, by far.

It may not be possible to make "smaller" patch.  Some bug fixes may require fixes to other bugs beforehand.  It's not a simple case of "see a bug, squash a bug" to use an anology.  It's better to take out the "nest of bugs" from where they're spawning.

The bugs that affect Awakening are almost all scripting errors.  In many cases, we saw similar scripts working flawlessly in Origins.  For instance, I was able to obtain the Origins party members in any order without ruining the reputation system.  This is not the case in Awakening.  I'm not talking about hard-to-fix engine bugs, here.

And as many of use know, there are quick fixes to a lot of minor bugs provided by the modding community (Qwinn's fixpack comes to mind).

Qwinn's fixes don't apply to Awakening.  Indeed, he has said that he won't support Awakening unless BioWare pays him to do so.  As far as I know, there is no similar pack for Awakening.

I know, I know what you're going to say . . . Bioware should not be relying on 3rd party, player-programmers to fix THEIR bugs but that is what it is.  And we who play on the PC are forever grateful we do!! 

It's still wrong.

[Zy-El]

Seifz: I agree with all your points.



However, I'd like to say that it is easiest for modders to fix bugs on the PC because they have the toolset available to them which the console users do not. PC's being programmable are a boon and bane. You mention a lot of game-breaking bugs that prevent you from playing Awakening. I have not encountered any of them that I could not work around and I did so without using the console. The problem with PC's is that everyone's configuration is different and therein lies the complexity of trying to create a patch that will work for everyone.



Patch 1.03 works for me and yet it does not work for a large number of players. The devs working on the patch have a very hard task before them as do the testers.

[Seifz]

Zy-El wrote...

Seifz: I agree with all your points.

However, I'd like to say that it is easiest for modders to fix bugs on the PC because they have the toolset available to them which the console users do not. PC's being programmable are a boon and bane. You mention a lot of game-breaking bugs that prevent you from playing Awakening. I have not encountered any of them that I could not work around and I did so without using the console. The problem with PC's is that everyone's configuration is different and therein lies the complexity of trying to create a patch that will work for everyone.

Patch 1.03 works for me and yet it does not work for a large number of players. The devs working on the patch have a very hard task before them as do the testers.

No, that isn't an accurate statement.  It's true that everyone has different hardware and software.  It's also true that the bugs I'm writing about shouldn't be affected by these differences.  Remember, we're talking about scripting bugs.  I'll give a few examples, and I'll try to avoid spoilers.

1.  If you don't complete the three main quests in a specific order, you will recruit companions that instantly receive +100 approval.  However, they're listed at +100 (Neutral), do not have any of the bonus skills, and do not share their personal quests with the player.  The only way to fix this problem is with the debug console.  This bug affects Justice, Sigrun, and Velanna.

2.  The plot encounters for Lilith the Merchant and Velanna's clan do not trigger properly.  Not recruiting Lilith prevents the player from completing the Trade Must Flow quest, an integral part of preparing for the end game and necessary for earning the The Enduring Vigil achievement.  Not encountering Velanna's clan blocks the player from completing her personal quest.  Both encounters are spawnable with the debug console, but there is no other fix.

3.  There is a less common bug that traps players in the marsh, near the dragon encounter.  Loading an old save and playing the area again does not fix the problem.  I was not victim to this bug, and I do not know what causes it, but again it's fixable only through the debug console.

In all three cases, we're talking about bugs in the game scripts.  The scripts should function the same for everyone, regardless of hardware and software configuration (the exceptions being an unsupported operating sytem, such as Linux, and third-party mods).  These are the same sorts of bugs that Qwinn was able to fix for Origins.  We shouldn't need to rely on altruism from Qwinn and other community members to make the game playable.  And again, I don't know of any community fixes for Awakening that don't involve "play the game in this specific order and avoid these quests" or the debug console.

Truly, I don't care about the 360 and PS3 versions of the game.  I purchased a PC game and I expected the same level of support that BioWare has shown for previous PC games.  If they cannot deliver that level of support to the console players because of some Sony and Microsoft roadblocks, I shouldn't have to suffer for it.

[RhemaThomas]

Pentier wrote...

So here we are 2 months after the release of Awakening and there still has been no patch to fix major game breaking issues plus the many quest bugs that makes them impossible to complete.  Intsead we get two fluff DLC (both the Feast day DLC's. You have to pay for them both so it counts as two) and chronicles where you get to play as a faceless Darkspawn.  The same Darkspawn they've spent the whole making as repulisive and unsympathetic as possible.  All in a game supposedly about roleplaying and player choice. 

Am I the only one who is seriously dissappointed in Bioware's priorities.  Maybe instead of working on more ways to bilk us of more money they should reassign the DLC to work on the patch then I might feel a little more inclined to buy the DLC when it did come out.  

/end rant

Am i the only one who feels like this?

I too am very disappointed with Awakening. Origins was great, but Awakening is not only plagued with bugs (ala the 1.03 patch) it also is not as fun as Origins. At least, not to me. I find myself just being hopelessly thrown around in every fight. Not that the fights are difficult so much, but that I can't seem to even get to swing a sword. I am constantly being tossed around or knocked down. Granted, I am the tank and that is my job, so to speak, but it would be nice to be able to swing my sword once or twice between knock downs. (sigh).

On a lighter note, I love Mass Effect (1 & 2) and find them far superior in stability and fun. Again, though, I did enjoy Origins, but due to all the bugs and crashing with the 1.03 patch, I am unable to play it either. I do wish they would fix what they have as I will not buy any more DLC for Dragon Age until they get the dang thing stable. It is a nightmare trying to play at this time (yes, tried all the suff found here to stabilize it, no luck).

So, to the OP, yes I feel the same. I do hope they fix it soon.