171 réponses à ce sujet

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

lol, no. I didn't respond to it because I didn't feel like it. If you insist though I judge my opinion not just on what has been posted in this thread. In every thread where the subject has been brought up Fexelea has been the biggest piracy apologists on this forum. I don't need any further investigation to know where she stands nor do I need to give any credence to her side of the argument.
What she believes in and advocates is illegal so even if I were to agree with her, I would still oppose it. I don't believe in the kind of society where people can just break the law because they dissagree with it.

WTF? Prove those remarks. You can't.

The fact that you are incapable of thinking or understanding an informed market-based proposition is your own problem.

[Busomjack]

Alright Fexelea, my no responding to you rule is on hold once again.



We do see multi platform releases but most of these games are console-centric, meaning they were developed with the console in mind. That means PC games are deliberately being dumbed down for the sake of consoles. Who can blame developers for doing it though when the majority of their revenue comes from console sales?



Also, upgrading hardware is nothing new. Hell, it was a lot more expensive during the days of 3dFX when people needed to have SLI Voodoo 2's to run games like Unreal above 800x600 resolution. It wasn't cheap back then but PC games managed nonetheless. Console games have always been more profitable but PC games sold well enough that we still saw plenty of cool exclusives.

Not anymore... it really is a terrible tragedy.

[Busomjack]

Lol, I don't know what you're talking about Hydrated Jar. I already addressed your point about Rosen's article. I summed it up by saying that Epic Games has more credibility than Rosen due to their status as an industry giant that has actually sold millions of games and thus their justifications for their decisions matter since they effect gamers.

It is not MY opinion, I just happen to share their opinion.

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

Alright Fexelea, my no responding to you rule is on hold once again.

Translation: Alright Fexelea, I can't help but want to have some validity. (It isn't working)

Busomjack wrote...
We do see multi platform releases but most of these games are console-centric, meaning they were developed with the console in mind. That means PC games are deliberately being dumbed down for the sake of consoles. Who can blame developers for doing it though when the majority of their revenue comes from console sales?

That is a very valid point: yet it is not about piracy. It is about how the profit model is structured in different markets.

Busomjack wrote...
Also, upgrading hardware is nothing new. Hell, it was a lot more expensive during the days of 3dFX when people needed to have SLI Voodoo 2's to run games like Unreal above 800x600 resolution. It wasn't cheap back then but PC games managed nonetheless. Console games have always been more profitable but PC games sold well enough that we still saw plenty of cool exclusives.
Not anymore... it really is a terrible tragedy.

I don't care it isn't new. I got fed up of it, that's all.

And again, research. Get the numbers. Look at the financial statements for the big companies and come to your own conclusions on why what is happening, rather than buying a line that piracy is single-handendly destroying PC gaming. It's not true, just as Nintendo's claim to 50%-60% of the gamer market isn't true.

Modifié par Fexelea, 19 mai 2010 - 04:10 .

[DragonRageGT]

This B/S again?

90% of the games CD's sold in the streets or some stands around the world are for CONSOLES! They cost a lot more than their PC version and they're pirated a lot more. Too bad I don't own a console.



Oh, and SELLING illegal version of some products, that's piracy. Someone IS making money instead of the legal owners. File sharing is a whole different thing and some devs, like Stardock, have a much more realistic view of it and of how to make money out of it.

[Busomjack]

You're so cute when you try to get under my skin with your translations.

It is about piracy because there was a console market back in the 90's and early 2000's too and even despite it being more profitable it didn't stop developers from developing games for it. Even when consoles caught up with the Sega Dreamcast, and PS2 we still saw some of the greatest PC releases of all time and they were PC ONLY!

We can crunch numbers all day if you like. The only thing that matters in the end though is what the developers say. Unless you can prove they're lying, then the problem lies with piracy.

[Busomjack]

RageGT wrote...

This B/S again?
90% of the games CD's sold in the streets or some stands around the world are for CONSOLES! They cost a lot more than their PC version and they're pirated a lot more. Too bad I don't own a console.

Oh, and SELLING illegal version of some products, that's piracy. Someone IS making money instead of the legal owners. File sharing is a whole different thing and some devs, like Stardock, have a much more realistic view of it and of how to make money out of it.

File sharing itself is legal but sharing a copyrighted product is copyright infringement.  I haven't studied the legal definition of piracy but distrubting a copyrighted product through torrent is definetly illegal.

[Outamyhead]

BusomJack wrote...



"Hydrated Jar. Console games are easy to pirate however the PC gaming market is substantially smaller than the console market and thus piracy has a more adverse effect on the PC gaming industry. That is why we see almost no PC exclusives these days outside of strategy games and MMORPGs.



As an old school PC gamer I deeply DEEPLY resent what PC gamers have done to this market which I grew up loving and have fond, nostalgic memories for what it once was. The fact that they justify their criminal behaviour by blaming it on the developers is disgraceful."



actually when you compare PC format to say, one console on the Market, the PC Is making more money in games sales, it's not entirely the developers fault, look at Bungie, they were contractually bound to produce Halo for the XBox before the PC, even though they were planning to be PC exclusive...sometimes it's the console manufacturers fault for the state of the PC game industry.



Yet again your labeling a large gaming community with what is a minority of people, there are a number of things that could effect PC games sales, like the WoW addicts, the people that play sims and nothing else, or the people that have moved over to consoles, but this has all been pretty much foreseen with projective sales figures.

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

You're so cute when you try to get under my skin with your translations.

I'm always cute. And I have no interest in your skin. Or any other part of you, actually.

Busomjack wrote...
It is about piracy because there was a console market back in the 90's and early 2000's too and even
despite it being more profitable it didn't stop developers from developing games for it.

If you want to make a proposition which includes comparison of piracy rates and impact on profitability and therefore prospects, how about you do some research and include some data?

Busomjack wrote...
Even when consoles caught up with the Sega Dreamcast, and PS2 we still saw some of the greatest PC releases of all time and they were PC ONLY!

This is irrelevant as you are proposing it as anecdotal evidence without taking into account context, market segmentation, etc.

Busomjack wrote...
We can crunch numbers all day if you like.

That would be an integral part of arriving to an informed conclusion. You seem incapable of doing so.

Busomjack wrote...
The only thing that matters in the end though is what the developers say. Unless you can prove they're lying, then the problem lies with piracy.

This is fallacious reasoning. Developers are not at unison in their takes on this (see 3:34 Gabe "we don't worry about piracy", as it is the "result of bad service" ). The analysis of numbers reveals that when companies put forth the "piracy is destroying us!" claims their prospects are bogus. IE: 1 Download equals 1 lost sale?

Modifié par Fexelea, 19 mai 2010 - 04:33 .

[Busomjack]

Bungie's case was an exceptionally rare one and yes I don't deny that certain franchises have become very popular on the PC.

That however, is part of the problem.



The mighty PC that brought us the likes of Deus Ex, Morrowind, Fallout, Planescape Torment and so many other greats is now most famous for giving us a dollhouse simulator and a fantasy version of second life.

Is this really the future old school PC gamers such as myself envisioned when they grew up enraptured by the masterpieces of the past?

[The Grey Spectre]

Busomjack wrote...

RageGT wrote...

This B/S again?
90% of the games CD's sold in the streets or some stands around the world are for CONSOLES! They cost a lot more than their PC version and they're pirated a lot more. Too bad I don't own a console.

Oh, and SELLING illegal version of some products, that's piracy. Someone IS making money instead of the legal owners. File sharing is a whole different thing and some devs, like Stardock, have a much more realistic view of it and of how to make money out of it.

File sharing itself is legal but sharing a copyrighted product is copyright infringement.  I haven't studied the legal definition of piracy but distrubting a copyrighted product through torrent is definetly illegal.

Copyright infringement (file-sharing) is almost always a civil procedure (recovering damages, not punishing) because criminal prosecution requires proof beyond doubt, which can be difficult (such as the case when more than one person had access to the computer).

[Busomjack]

Well Fexelea, don't expect me to buy you a drink should we ever meet in person. Your loss...

Anyways, the reason why I am not actively researching your side of the argument is because I have no interest in hearing people try to justify a crime. As I have said earlier, piracy or copyright infringement or whatever you want to call it is ILLEGAL! Therefore even if I were to dissagree with the law I would still be opposed to breaking it. I don't believe in a society where people can just break any law they dissagree with. That mentality encourages anarchy and disorder.

Lastly, Gabe Newell is a pretty damn big hypocrite considering that his company Valve delayed Half Life 2 for an entire year due to a software leak.
He sure seemed to care about piracy back then. Valve has always tried to appeal to the counter culture crowd though so i can see why he'd say that from a business point of view.  Afterall, every "cool" gamer is a pirate, right?  They're stickin' it to the man!

Modifié par Busomjack, 19 mai 2010 - 04:41 .

[Busomjack]

The Grey Spectre wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

RageGT wrote...

This B/S again?
90% of the games CD's sold in the streets or some stands around the world are for CONSOLES! They cost a lot more than their PC version and they're pirated a lot more. Too bad I don't own a console.

Oh, and SELLING illegal version of some products, that's piracy. Someone IS making money instead of the legal owners. File sharing is a whole different thing and some devs, like Stardock, have a much more realistic view of it and of how to make money out of it.

File sharing itself is legal but sharing a copyrighted product is copyright infringement.  I haven't studied the legal definition of piracy but distrubting a copyrighted product through torrent is definetly illegal.

Copyright infringement (file-sharing) is almost always a civil procedure (recovering damages, not punishing) because criminal prosecution requires proof beyond doubt, which can be difficult (such as the case when more than one person had access to the computer).

heh, no kidding.  That is probably why so many PC gamers are pirates.  There is almost no risk of reprecussion.

[Busomjack]

Hey, I'm not letting console pirates off the hook.

It's just that PC gamers should show more responsibility since a smaller market means their actions speak with a much louder voice.

hehe, I bet Fexelea is writing some huge book filled with all these arcane references and Harvard law studies on how piracy is actually beneficial to the industry.
Too bad I'm not going to read any of them.

Modifié par Busomjack, 19 mai 2010 - 04:47 .

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

Well Fexelea, don't expect me to buy you a drink should we ever meet in person. Your loss...

Happily married. And I can buy my own drinks.

Busomjack wrote...
Anyways, the reason why I am not actively researching your side of the argument is because I have no interest in hearing people try to justify a crime.

My side of the argument? Justifying a crime? Have you read ANYTHING of what I have said?! I am not defending pirates. I am saying that what is hurting PC gaming is not pirates, and that users should have a look around and see how the world has changed in other ways. Instead of believing it is the pirate's fault, how about you do research and find out the reality of why companies steer towards consoles?

Busomjack wrote...
As I have said earlier, piracy or copyright infringement or whatever you want to call it is ILLEGAL!

Yeah? So? I haven't defended it in any way and I have no intentions of doing so.

Busomjack wrote...
Therefore even if I were to dissagree with the law I would still be opposed to breaking it. 

So? Irrelevant to my proposed stance...

Busomjack wrote...
I don't believe in a society where people can just break any law they dissagree with. That mentality encourages anarchy and disorder.

So? Irrelevant to my proposed stance...

Busomjack wrote...
Lastly, Gabe Newell is a pretty damn big hypocrite considering that his company Valve delayed Half Life 2 for an entire year due to a software leak.

So now you attack another developer because you don't like him? Please.

Busomjack wrote...
He sure seemed to care about piracy back then.

Again, we cannot know what he thinks. We have only what he told the press. Two very opposing views. You want the truth? Run the numbers yourslef.

Busomjack wrote...
Valve has always tried to appeal to the counter culture crowd though so i can see why he's say that from a business point of view.

This is your interpretation of their business practices for which you have what substantiation?

---
For the record, since you seem to be missing this key aspects:

1. I don't pirate
2. I don't endorse piracy
3. I don't justify piracy
4. I don't believe that piracy is the true reason why devs move towards console. After adequate research, it is simply a matter of profitability and investor prospects in the modern gaming market.
5. I don't think people's propositions should be dismissed on virtue of one's preconceptions. I believe analysis of the logic and self-conducted research is vital to reach intelligent conclusions.

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

hehe, I bet Fexelea is writing some huge book filled with all these arcane references and Harvard law studies on how piracy is actually beneficial to the industry.
Too bad I'm not going to read any of them.

Translation: I'm sure tired of getting pwned time and again, I'm going to pretend I don't read the responses in an attempt to retain some dignity.

[Outamyhead]

Jack there is a difference between fixing problems found from a leak, and not bringing out a product at all to a specific platform it was originally intended.



Gabe fixed the leak and was not contractually bound to shaft the fans, Epic released a console port to PC and blamed piracy on crappy sales results.

[AlanC9]

Fexelea, could you clarify point 4?

Fexelea wrote...

4. I don't believe that piracy is the true reason why devs move towards console. After adequate research, it is simply a matter of profitability and investor prospects in the modern gaming market.

Surely piracy counts when evaluating profitability. Are you saying that PC games would be unprofitable without piracy, so it doesn't matter if they are pirated or not?

[valkyrie0]

I tend to agree with Fexelea, the value proposition of consoles far outweigh piracy as a reason to move to console-exclusivity. The underlying systems in services like XBox Live and the PSN, the hardware standards of the consoles, the reduced cost of development time as a result, and the far greater consumer base makes consoles more attractive to develop for.

But my main point will be that just because the video game market is changing, doesn't mean it's bad. The video game industry will evolve to whatever the consumer pays for and PC, consoles, Facebook, etc, etc, it doesn't really matter, because the games are what are important, not the platform. So far, I'm not worried that games are losing quality, because the what's happening is the opposite.


P.S. The American Revolution began with people who broke laws they disagreed with, just a thought.

Modifié par polyorpheus, 19 mai 2010 - 05:29 .

[Fexelea]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fexelea, could you clarify point 4?

Fexelea wrote...

4. I don't believe that piracy is the true reason why devs move towards console. After adequate research, it is simply a matter of profitability and investor prospects in the modern gaming market.

Surely piracy counts when evaluating profitability. Are you saying that PC games would be unprofitable without piracy, so it doesn't matter if they are pirated or not?

Sure I can clarify

My main point is that piracy is not the driving force towards console development. This move is fueled by a convergence of external and internal factors, that relate to the market at large rather than the "lost sales to pirates" that some developers like to highlight as the main threat of the industry.
There are many factors to the current state: Modern game development demands a steep investment that is unproportional to a confined market in light of the size of the companies and the expected return on investment. It has gotten expensive to the point where one can no longer rely on pc-only as a source of income, as that fraction of the market just can't withstand the number of games that come out yearly. Consumer patterns have changed, and in addition to everything getting more expensive (from the salaries of your employees to the necessity to have a marketing/pr unit, to the changes in distribution and modern legality), big companies have an expectation of returns that include those seen on consoles.
So companies have choices:
*Go it solo and aim to be the market leader (or get into the top 3 if you expect to remain making AAA titles)
*Go it solo and make "smaller" games
*Partner with publisher and share those overheads
*Merge with publisher and expand repertoir to account for publisher expectations.

I think PC gaming is plenty profitable as it is. It is just harder and less profitable than console-friendly one. The driving factor is not the pirating, but the overall models, the market, the costs and the expectation of returns.