268 réponses à ce sujet

[adam_grif]

The system I proposed is mainly to permit people who want to play Paragades and not take a penalty to their ability to persuade. If necessary, the Paragade will be limited to using the Paragon persuade if Paragon is currently higher or Renegade persuade if Renegade is currently higher on some dialogue wheel choices.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I think the real issue lies deeper than what can be resolved with any of the currently proposed fixes.



That is to say, the idea that there are tough situations that force you to choose between two things, but then if your points are high enough you get the best of both worlds. Not being able to charm/intimidate people wouldn't be a problem, except that charm/intimidate magically make your problems up and disappear. I think Tali's loyalty mission was the worst, where you can just shout the admiralty board into submission or make an empassioned speech and get everybody onside with you.



The sollutions to these problems should be more like the Wrex family armor out than the other uses. Where you have to personally gain the trust and loyalty of people, or have something that you went out of your way to get, to solve the issues. You get an extra option based on your actions or a relationship you have with characters.



But if they have to keep doing it the way they're doing, I'd simply prefer it like I said - single persuation meter, skillpoint investments. The way you propose is a step up from the current situation, but it's a bit complicated (as in, some people will have trouble understanding it unless it's transparently explained in the game), and it seems more like sticking a band-aid on a problem that needs surgery to fix.

[Ecael]

adam_grif wrote...

The system I proposed is mainly to permit people who want to play Paragades and not take a penalty to their ability to persuade. If necessary, the Paragade will be limited to using the Paragon persuade if Paragon is currently higher or Renegade persuade if Renegade is currently higher on some dialogue wheel choices.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I think the real issue lies deeper than what can be resolved with any of the currently proposed fixes.

That is to say, the idea that there are tough situations that force you to choose between two things, but then if your points are high enough you get the best of both worlds. Not being able to charm/intimidate people wouldn't be a problem, except that charm/intimidate magically make your problems up and disappear. I think Tali's loyalty mission was the worst, where you can just shout the admiralty board into submission or make an empassioned speech and get everybody onside with you.

The sollutions to these problems should be more like the Wrex family armor out than the other uses. Where you have to personally gain the trust and loyalty of people, or have something that you went out of your way to get, to solve the issues. You get an extra option based on your actions or a relationship you have with characters.

If you saved Kal'Reegar and gave Veetor to Tali (and talked to them both during the Tali trial), you get an extra option to [Rally the Crowd].

Also, Shepard's ability to Persuade with Paragon/Renegade depends on which admirals you've spoken to - his lines are different if you don't speak to them before leaving for the Alarei.

Wrex's loyalty is a little less complex than that, but it's still Persuasion based.

Modifié par Ecael, 06 juin 2010 - 02:28 .

[adam_grif]

If you saved Kal'Reegar and gave Veetor to Tali (and talked to them both during the Tali trial), you get an extra option to [Rally the Crowd].

5 playthroughs, and I never knew that.

[TelexFerra]

I always just Paragade my way out of that one.



Maybe on my next Shep I'll try that

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ecael wrote...

Also, Shepard's ability to Persuade with Paragon/Renegade depends on which admirals you've spoken to - his lines are different if you don't speak to them before leaving for the Alarei.

Really? How!?

Must replay ME2 now!

[Ecael]

Lizardviking wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Also, Shepard's ability to Persuade with Paragon/Renegade depends on which admirals you've spoken to - his lines are different if you don't speak to them before leaving for the Alarei.

Really? How!?

Must replay ME2 now!

When you talk to all the Admirals (and do all the Investigates), Shepard has enough information to essentially expose the Admiralty Board for playing politics by using Tali as a scapegoat.

Without doing that, Shepard just yells at them as Persuasion.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ecael wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Also, Shepard's ability to Persuade with Paragon/Renegade depends on which admirals you've spoken to - his lines are different if you don't speak to them before leaving for the Alarei.

Really? How!?

Must replay ME2 now!

When you talk to all the Admirals (and do all the Investigates), Shepard has enough information to essentially expose the Admiralty Board for playing politics by using Tali as a scapegoat.

Without doing that, Shepard just yells at them as Persuasion.

So does the amount of P/R demanded increase in order to save Tali from exile. or does the dialog when Shepard makes his speech get difrent? Or is it completly impossible to pull  it off without investigating?

[Ecael]

Lizardviking wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Also, Shepard's ability to Persuade with Paragon/Renegade depends on which admirals you've spoken to - his lines are different if you don't speak to them before leaving for the Alarei.

Really? How!?

Must replay ME2 now!

When you talk to all the Admirals (and do all the Investigates), Shepard has enough information to essentially expose the Admiralty Board for playing politics by using Tali as a scapegoat.

Without doing that, Shepard just yells at them as Persuasion.

So does the amount of P/R demanded increase in order to save Tali from exile. or does the dialog when Shepard makes his speech get difrent? Or is it completly impossible to pull  it off without investigating?

I've seen a YouTube video where Shepard does it without investigation.

It probably requires a higher amount of Paragon/Renegade than normal to do, as you mentioned.

[TelexFerra]

I never talk to the admirals and I always Paragon/Renegade it after the Geth controlled ship part.

[Ecael]

TelexFerra wrote...

I never talk to the admirals and I always Paragon/Renegade it after the Geth controlled ship part.

You got this kind of speech then (turn your volume down, video's kind of loud):

http://www.youtube.c...nChZaBQ#t=0m35s - Renegade Speech without Investigate

This is the other Renegade speech:

http://www.youtube.c...AFCf-jFY#t=0m45 - Renegade Speech with Investigate

Both are pretty good.

[Ecael]

Updated main post with yet another good idea:

Option 4: Hub Worlds - *NEW*

Why is it that only two squadmates are allowed to come with you on hub worlds? It certainly isn't a gameplay issue, since you're not actually fighting in the main hub areas. Why not have your other squadmates (that aren't following you) show up on their favorite spots on hub worlds with dialogue?

For example, Grunt (click for full image):


Not only can it add more dialogue between you, Grunt and other squadmates (making it even more interactive than regular banter!), you can immediately switch them before you head off to another mission instead of running back to the shuttle for the squad select screen.

[MrNose]

Ecael wrote...

Updated main post with yet another good idea:

Option 4: Hub Worlds - *NEW*

Why is it that only two squadmates are allowed to come with you on hub worlds? It certainly isn't a gameplay issue, since you're not actually fighting in the main hub areas. Why not have your other squadmates (that aren't following you) show up on their favorite spots on hub worlds with dialogue?

For example, Grunt (click for full image):


Not only can it add more dialogue between you, Grunt and other squadmates (making it even more interactive than regular banter!), you can immediately switch them before you head off to another mission instead of running back to the shuttle for the squad select screen.

Awww...  I suggested this once and everyone shot me down.  I think it would be a great way to allow BioWare to script character interactions by having your whole squad show up on hubworlds.

I would have them doing different things though, rather than have them all show up in one place.

Tali could be talking to Quarians on the Citadel, Miranda could be... at a bar?, Garrus could be chatting with CSEC, Legion investigating the Keepers.  This way when you talk to them, it would have some context with what they're doing.

Instead of having "talk to BLANK", you could have "call BLANK to DO SOMETHING".  I feel like this would allow people to make comments about Shepard, rather than themselves, I like seeing those.  For instance when you go to Afterlife and Miranda addresses you and asks if you're looking for some R&R.

[Ecael]

MrNose wrote...

Awww...  I suggested this once and everyone shot me down.  I think it would be a great way to allow BioWare to script character interactions by having your whole squad show up on hubworlds.

I would have them doing different things though, rather than have them all show up in one place.

Tali could be talking to Quarians on the Citadel, Miranda could be... at a bar?, Garrus could be chatting with CSEC, Legion investigating the Keepers.  This way when you talk to them, it would have some context with what they're doing.

Instead of having "talk to BLANK", you could have "call BLANK to DO SOMETHING".  I feel like this would allow people to make comments about Shepard, rather than themselves, I like seeing those.  For instance when you go to Afterlife and Miranda addresses you and asks if you're looking for some R&R.

Definitely. It would be reminiscent of the Camp area from Dragon Age.

Do you have a link of the thread/post you made? I'll link to it on my main post to give proper credit.

[Ecael]

I found Doctor_Jackstraw's thread on the topic, but I couldn't find yours, MrNose.

http://social.biowar...3/index/2754991

Unless you are Doctor_Jackstraw, in which case saying this would be redundant.

[TelexFerra]

I like the new idea

[TelexFerra]

We have crew conflict scenes, but why can't we have crew relation scenes where Shepard may or may not be involved.



What if after the Normandy loaded after a mission, we were treated to Jack and Miranda discussing their feelings about the mission, or perhaps even the romance between them (presuming neither one is the pursued LI)



Or what if Mordin learned about Thane's disease and spoke with him about finding a cure? Maybe Garrus and Tali want to have a chat about the good old days on the SR-1? What if there was a scene of Chakwas giving Joker his medicine while they discussed the status of the mission?



I believe there were scenes like this in KOTOR and KOTOR II, and they made the crew feel more like a cooperative, collaborative crew.

[Ecael]

TelexFerra wrote...

We have crew conflict scenes, but why can't we have crew relation scenes where Shepard may or may not be involved.

What if after the Normandy loaded after a mission, we were treated to Jack and Miranda discussing their feelings about the mission, or perhaps even the romance between them (presuming neither one is the pursued LI)

Or what if Mordin learned about Thane's disease and spoke with him about finding a cure? Maybe Garrus and Tali want to have a chat about the good old days on the SR-1? What if there was a scene of Chakwas giving Joker his medicine while they discussed the status of the mission?

I believe there were scenes like this in KOTOR and KOTOR II, and they made the crew feel more like a cooperative, collaborative crew.

We could see something like that in Mass Effect 3. Most of the recruitment missions and main missions ended in character debriefings, so I would think that there would be more squad meetings than usual in the next game.

I don't know how Omega-4 deaths will factor into that.

[sodacatkun]

great idea but bw wont do it

[Dracotamer]

I agree, This was missing from the game, even a simple version like Dragon Age: Origins would be great!

[adam_grif]

The other thing is that for important plot related missions, the thing you did at the end of ME2 with using the whole team should be the norm, not the exception. It would have been MUCH more intuitive to decide who to pick for which roles if you had a "trial run", so you'd get an early indication of which choices weren't good for specific roles.



And also it's much more believable that the whole squad is being used for something that way.

[Yana Montana]

Well, ME2 definitely lacked party banter. Look at the awesome job Devs did on Dragon Age! I want more interaction between our squadmates in ME3.

[CroGamer002]

Great ideas!

Too bad Bioware probably won't adapt it to ME3. :-(

[TelexFerra]

Yeh, they'll probably claim that people found the lack of 'annoying' squad banter fun, about just as fun as fans found the mining game.

[Ecael]

TelexFerra wrote...

Yeh, they'll probably claim that people found the lack of 'annoying' squad banter fun, about just as fun as fans found the mining game.

New in ME3:

Dialogue-mining Game!

I would totally rock at that...

[ciaweth]

Ecael wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

Yeh, they'll probably claim that people found the lack of 'annoying' squad banter fun, about just as fun as fans found the mining game.

New in ME3:

Dialogue-mining Game!

I would totally rock at that...

You would indeed.  Thanks for all this info, Ecael.