74 réponses à ce sujet

[Valdan777]

Which gun would you say is better for taking out the bosses and elites on insanity and why?

[Sand King]

Revenant: Non-stop barrage of death - Good for many enemys

Widow: Pinpoint accuracy one hit kill - Good for few enemys

[Spartas Husky]

Depends where the boss is, and how immidiate is hire fire.



Most of the times is Revenant.



....actually I dont remember using the widow for anything else beisdes ...a couple scions. Most scions actually appear rather close, or not far enough to capitalize on the widows dmg.

[Lumikki]

I can't say anything about the choise. How ever, ...



Heavy slow long distance one shot sniper riffles are good for taking down strong far target, while need to be in cover alot. Meaning you self would be under heavy fire or have light defence.

[cruc1al]

The DPS difference between revenant and vindicator is much less than the difference between widow and mantis. So I'd recomment widow + vindicator against bosses (depending on distance)

[mi55ter]

Apart from technical details, the feeling of power you get from winding up AR and letting go with the Revvy has to be felt to be believed.

I've found the Viper- Revvy combo to be quite handy for bosses. You can take something like a Scion out at long or short distance with those two.

[RGFrog]

Infiltrator, Assassin Cloak, Assassin personal, #4 AP , Kuwashii Visor, Sniper upgrades (5), sniper hs upgrade + widow

+ 75% + 15% + 75% (armor/health) + 10% HS + 50% + 50% HS  =  One shot kill, two if barrier or shield is involved.

So, cloak, zoom in for HS and kill. Granted, it's a lot slower than just full auto Rev, as you're limited to one shot every few seconds due to cloak cool down, but that's why you play infiltrator.

On a soldier, though, Rev. wins hands down. Especially with level 4 AP.

Modifié par RGFrog, 19 mai 2010 - 04:23 .

[PillarBiter]

Revenant, hands down. I use mantis for sniper needs and it does most of the job well. not so much on insanity, but rev makes up for it.

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...

The DPS difference between revenant and vindicator is much less than the difference between widow and mantis. So I'd recomment widow + vindicator against bosses (depending on distance)

I'm not really sure what this comparison is supposed to conclude, as the Viper's DPS is way ahead of the Widow. Ultimately if DPS is your deciding metric, Revenant + Viper combo sit way ahead of Vindicator + Widow.

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

The DPS difference between revenant and vindicator is much less than the difference between widow and mantis. So I'd recomment widow + vindicator against bosses (depending on distance)

I'm not really sure what this comparison is supposed to conclude, as the Viper's DPS is way ahead of the Widow. Ultimately if DPS is your deciding metric, Revenant + Viper combo sit way ahead of Vindicator + Widow.

You're right, I didn't think about Viper because I don't like using it. But Viper's DPS is ahead Widow only when firing at maximum fire rate with all shots hitting. Widow hits more reliably, and you get headshots more often, which gives widow a better DPS.

Modifié par cruc1al, 19 mai 2010 - 06:26 .

[RGFrog]

DPS is damage per second, not damage per shot. In a single shot Viper doesn't even come close to the Widow.

[cruc1al]

RGFrog wrote...

DPS is damage per second, not damage per shot. In a single shot Viper doesn't even come close to the Widow.

Yeah, one widow shot is 4.5 viper shots. If it takes just about 1 widow headshot to kill a merc without AR on, the time you need to be out of cover is as much as you need for aiming. If you're good, maybe 0.5-1 second. With the viper, 4 headshots would probably do the same job, but with maximum fire rate it's tough to achieve. That would also take 1 second. But in reality, more like 2-3 seconds with many shots hitting the body or not hitting at all.

Modifié par cruc1al, 19 mai 2010 - 06:43 .

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...
You're right, I didn't think about Viper because I don't like using it. But Viper's DPS is ahead Widow only when firing at maximum fire rate with all shots hitting. Widow hits more reliably, and you get headshots more often, which gives widow a better DPS.

Well, that's debatable at best - I'm not sure how you've decided a weapon with a slower rate of fire hits more reliably - logically the gun that shoots at the faster rate hits more often than the one that shoots more slowly. If I attack a target for the same amount of time with either rifle and miss four times in that interval, you can bet The viper will have done more damage than the widow.

Sure, you *have* to aim with more care on the widow... but whether you hit depends on your marksmanship, not the gun. That goes for both rifles.

Besides, on most bosses (which tend to be huge giant monster thingies) hitting them isn't that difficult. Damaging them is the important part.

It doesn't really make much sense to start trying to bring in accuracy into a discussion about DPS, anyway. DPS is measure of the damage potential, not player skill.

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

cruc1al wrote...
You're right, I didn't think about Viper because I don't like using it. But Viper's DPS is ahead Widow only when firing at maximum fire rate with all shots hitting. Widow hits more reliably, and you get headshots more often, which gives widow a better DPS.

Well, that's debatable at best - I'm not sure how you've decided a weapon with a slower rate of fire hits more reliably - logically the gun that shoots at the faster rate hits more often than the one that shoots more slowly.

No, logically it's just the other way around. The gun that shoots more slowly gives you more time to aim per shot, hence improving your accuracy.

JaegerBane wrote...

If I attack a target for the same amount of time with either rifle and miss four times in that interval, you can bet The viper will have done more damage than the widow.

I'm not talking about the absolute number of shots hit or missed. Why would I? What matters is how many shots hit per shots fired, because that translates into differences in damage done.

JaegerBane wrote...Sure, you *have* to aim with more care on the widow... but whether you hit depends on your marksmanship, not the gun. That goes for both rifles.

Viper requires much more skill to hit 100%, because it fires faster.

JaegerBane wrote...It doesn't really make much sense to start trying to bring in accuracy into a discussion about DPS, anyway. DPS is measure of the damage potential, not player skill.

While the latter statement is certainly true, IMO it doesn't make much sense to compare weapons based on their DPS on paper, because there are many other factors that affect how much damage you do with one weapon compared to the other. Accuracy is one of them, and it is not entirely dependent on player skill.

Modifié par cruc1al, 19 mai 2010 - 06:57 .

[Omicrone]

@JaegerBane: You're wrong there. Marksmanship plays a role but with the time dilation it's way easier to line up a single headshot than line up 4 in a row to maximise damage. That's mostly due to the whiplash effect a headshot has on a target. The force of the impact displaces their head and it's harder to score the next headshot unless you're a -really- good shot. DPS only comes into play on foes such as the Colossus where no single shot (apart from a heavy weapon) can equal sustained hits.

Modifié par Omicrone, 19 mai 2010 - 06:56 .

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...
No, logically it's just the other way around. The gun that shoots more slowly gives you more time to aim per shot, hence improving your accuracy.

That's pure nonsense. The weapon isn't 'giving' you more time to shoot. You're taking more time to shoot. The fact that the Widow doesn't allow use in any other way than patient head-shotting isn't a strength of the gun any more than the low ammo supply is a strength of the Cain.

I'm not talking about the absolute number of shots hit or missed. Why would I? What matters is how many shots hit per shots fired, because that translates into differences in damage done.

That's the issue, though. You speak as if the Widow somehow inherently allows you to hit with more shots. Whether you hit is dictated by whether your opponent is within the crosshairs, nothing more, nothing less.

Viper requires much more skill to hit 100%, because it fires faster.

But you don't need to hit 100%. Aside from the fact that not eveything in the game actually needs the full damage from a widow shot to kill (particularly when going for headshots) the viper's larger clip an larger margin for error makes it a much more practical weapon.

While the latter statement is certainly true, IMO it doesn't make much sense to compare weapons based on their DPS on paper, because there are many other factors that affect how much damage you do with one weapon compared to the other. Accuracy is one of them, and it is not entirely dependent on player skill.

I agree, it doesn't. The problem with comparing the Widow in any other arena is that the only thing it really brings to the table is single shot damage. One mistake, whether that be through impacts, obstacles or player error, and the average DPS of the widow goes down the toilet. It's an all or nothing weapon that absolutely, positively, *must* hit with every shot for it to remain competitive. And expecting to hit with every shot in a game like this just isn't sensible.

Infiltrators get something of a boost here, thanks to the slow down. But that's an advantage of the infiltrator, not the Widow.

[JaegerBane]

Omicrone wrote...

@JaegerBane: You're wrong there. Marksmanship plays a role but with the time dilation it's way easier to line up a single headshot than line up 4 in a row to maximise damage. That's mostly due to the whiplash effect a headshot has on a target. The force of the impact displaces their head and it's harder to score the next headshot unless you're a -really- good shot. DPS only comes into play on foes such as the Colossus where no single shot (apart from a heavy weapon) can equal sustained hits.

As I said, you don't necessarily need to constantly score headshots with the Viper. Not every enemy has enough health for the sheer damage of a widow headshot to be worth it's weight, and while you're sat reloading out of your ammo puddle, the Viper is still shooting at the rest of the guys wandering around.

Time dilation isn't a feature of either rifle, in any case.

[Omicrone]

In terms of gameplay, it's pretty simple to decide. If nobody's shooting at you and survivability isn't an issue - revenant will dish out more damage as long as you can afford to stay out of cover. If you're getting shot at, widow is a safer choice cause of the high dmg/survivability ratio. You pop out of cover, take the shot, deal huge damage in a very short time and avoid prolonged exposure simultaneously.

EDIT: Jaeger, I agree with you about Widow dealing more damage than some enemies have hit points, but the topic is about bosses/elites. In most cases they do survive 1 shot from the widow.

Modifié par Omicrone, 19 mai 2010 - 07:30 .

[tonnactus]

Omicrone wrote...

@JaegerBane: You're wrong there. Marksmanship plays a role but with the time dilation it's way easier to line up a single headshot than line up 4 in a row to maximise damage. That's mostly due to the whiplash effect a headshot has on a target. The force of the impact displaces their head and it's harder to score the next headshot unless you're a -really- good shot. DPS only comes into play on foes such as the Colossus where no single shot (apart from a heavy weapon) can equal sustained hits.

And this is the point of the thread.Bosses like geth primes or scions are easy to hit.It doesnt matter if someone use the viper or the widow in this cases.Both make equalliy fast work with those enemies.

[cruc1al]

@ JaegerBane



You've still got it backwards. The fact that Widow's rate of fire is lower means that you have to aim for longer than with Viper, whether you like it or not. And that you're aiming longer per shot means you have higher hit percentage. That fact alone narrows the DPS gap between the two weapons.



Of course I agree that Widow isn't as forgiving as Viper, because a shot missed costs much more damage than a shot missed with the Viper. But that doesn't change the fact that you're more likely to hit with the Widow than with the Viper, per shot. On the other hand, it's more difficult to use Viper to its fullest potential, because scoring continuous headshots at maximum rate of fire is practically impossible, while it's doable with the Widow.

[tonnactus]

cruc1al wrote...


Of course I agree that Widow isn't as forgiving as Viper, because a shot missed costs much more damage than a shot missed with the Viper. But that doesn't change the fact that you're more likely to hit with the Widow than with the Viper, per shot. On the other hand, it's more difficult to use Viper to its fullest potential, because scoring continuous headshots at maximum rate of fire is practically impossible, while it's doable with the Widow.

Its not that hard with adrenaline rush.

[cruc1al]

tonnactus wrote...

cruc1al wrote...


Of course I agree that Widow isn't as forgiving as Viper, because a shot missed costs much more damage than a shot missed with the Viper. But that doesn't change the fact that you're more likely to hit with the Widow than with the Viper, per shot. On the other hand, it's more difficult to use Viper to its fullest potential, because scoring continuous headshots at maximum rate of fire is practically impossible, while it's doable with the Widow.

Its not that hard with adrenaline rush.

Yeah I acknowledge that, but that's only for the duration of AR. Once it runs out, you're back to inaccurate mode.

[Omicrone]

tonnactus wrote...

Its not that hard with adrenaline rush.

Adrenaline rush =/= maximum rate of fire. That's what cruc1al was referring to. If you want to utilise the Viper to its fullest, you have to pop out of cover and empty a whole clip with every round being a headshot, time dilation or not. And that's quite a feat. With the widow you can do that because of the reload time and you don't have to rely exclusively on time dilation.

[tonnactus]

cruc1al wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

cruc1al wrote...


Of course I agree that Widow isn't as forgiving as Viper, because a shot missed costs much more damage than a shot missed with the Viper. But that doesn't change the fact that you're more likely to hit with the Widow than with the Viper, per shot. On the other hand, it's more difficult to use Viper to its fullest potential, because scoring continuous headshots at maximum rate of fire is practically impossible, while it's doable with the Widow.

Its not that hard with adrenaline rush.

Yeah I acknowledge that, but that's only for the duration of AR. Once it runs out, you're back to inaccurate mode.

Ok,back to the topic.Boss enemies like geth primes,harbringers and scions are not affected by the physic force of the sniper rifle even without adreanline rush,so viper and widow are not that far away.

[Lumikki]

cruc1al wrote...

@ JaegerBane

You've still got it backwards. The fact that Widow's rate of fire is lower means that you have to aim for longer than with Viper, whether you like it or not. And that you're aiming longer per shot means you have higher hit percentage. That fact alone narrows the DPS gap between the two weapons.

Sorry, I did not get this.

I play Infiltrator and when I used one shot sniper riffle this is what I do. I'm behind cover and then I start aiming while still in cover. When my aim is "about" okey, I zoom, what also takes me out of cover. Then I make final adjust what is very often minimal, takes maybe 1 second. Then I shoot. After shot is taken, I'm back to cover and waiting the sniper riffle reload. This means I do fast peaks from cover and fast one shot, then I'm back to cover.  I did leaved cloak out of this, because it's just extra damage and protection.

When I use Viper I do exactly same, but after first shot, I can't go back to cover, because one shot doesn't kill, I need to do like 2-4 shot usually. This means I'm little bit longer time out of cover. Other ways it's pretty same.

My point is there is no difference between aiming when the first shot is taken. Unless you are taking aiming different part of enemy body. Head shot is sometimes slower than body shot, but you need to know does enemy require head shot or is body shot enough.

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 mai 2010 - 08:20 .