74 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

@ Lumikki

Of course the first shot takes the same time to aim. That's where rate of fire comes in, which is what I was talking about.

More on topic: The difference in terms of damage between revenant and vindicator isn't very big, neither between widow and viper. You'd be almost as effective with vindicator + viper as you would with revenant + widow, and for some people - depending on skill, playstyle etc. - the former might even be preferable.

Modifié par cruc1al, 19 mai 2010 - 08:19 .

[Lumikki]

Okey, I think I get it now. How ever, advance of faster fire rate between kills is only advance if player is able to aim faster than slower rate weapons fire rate is for first shot. Also advance of longer aim is only advance if the rate of fire isn't much slower than players ability aim. Meaning, the downtime for aiming doesn't come too long or short, based players aiming ability for first shot.

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 mai 2010 - 08:29 .

[SmokeyNinjas]

The Viper can already go toe to toe with the Widow on DPS but has alot more ammo & is a more versatile weapon.

The Vindicator may be able to hold its own against the Revenant when used at range but get up close with the Revenant & IMO it blows the Vindicator away while also having a much better ammo supply.

So for me on a solider Viper>Widow & Revenant>Vindicator.
Also slowmo Widow reloads are

[cruc1al]

SmokeyNinjas wrote...

Also slowmo Widow reloads are

There are no slomo reloads. Unless you use AR purely for reloading which you obviously shouldn't

[jaff00]

Go with the Widow. The revvy's a spray&pray piece of crap. The only situations where it does the job (ever so slightly) better than the vindicator are point-blank skirmishes and those aren't too frequent.

Plus, even at a range where the revvy will actually be spraying on target, most of the hits will simply be bodyshots whereas the vindicator's imba accuracy will allow for triple-headshot bursts with fairly little effort.

[Lucazius]

For a Soldier, Adrenaline Rush benefits more weapons with rapid fire rate, like the Revenant and the Viper. The Widow is cool, but you'll not 1shot tough enemies on insanity (like Collector Guardians, Harbinger, Mercenary Elites and Krogans) no matter how many upgrades/talents you have.

[tonnactus]

jaff00 wrote...

Plus, even at a range where the revvy will actually be spraying on target, most of the hits will simply be bodyshots whereas the vindicator's imba accuracy will allow for triple-headshot bursts with fairly little effort.

At "long range"(that dont really exist in Mass Effect 2 anyway) it is advisable to use the sniper rifle or the pistol. A medium range the revenant is accurate enough.

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...

@ JaegerBane

You've still got it backwards. The fact that Widow's rate of fire is lower means that you have to aim for longer than with Viper, whether you like it or not. And that you're aiming longer per shot means you have higher hit percentage. That fact alone narrows the DPS gap between the two weapons.

That's probably why I'm apparently getting it 'backwards' - you've taken a side effect of a slower rate of fire weapon and somehow attributing that to your own performance. This is logically no different to claiming guns with smaller clips are more accurate on the basis that you spend more time choosing your shots. It's flat out silly.

The rifles themselves do not affect how long it takes to aim. You may decide to take a risky shot or play it safe and spend more time lining it up at the cost of greater exposure to return fire - this is a choice you make irrespective of rifle, and to a certain extent, is academic in that enemies move and your scope wobbles when hit. Trying to claim that a lower rate of fire psychologically forces you to be more accurate and therefore it should be considered a point in the weapon's favour just illustrates that you're having a problem differentiating between cause and effect. I've no doubt the Widow will encourage good habits but ultimately that's something the player does. It's not like this mystical inferred accuracy disappears as soon as you use another rifle.

And frankly, claiming it 'narrows the DPS gap' is a pretty spectacular leap of logic that not only ignores the fact that you may miss with the Widow but also, bizarrely, assumes that you're missing more often than hitting with the Viper.

[JaegerBane]

jaff00 wrote...

Go with the Widow. The revvy's a spray&pray piece of crap. The only situations where it does the job (ever so slightly) better than the vindicator are point-blank skirmishes and those aren't too frequent.
Plus, even at a range where the revvy will actually be spraying on target, most of the hits will simply be bodyshots whereas the vindicator's imba accuracy will allow for triple-headshot bursts with fairly little effort.

There's so much wrong with this I'm not even sure where to start. The idea that short-range skimrishes only happen rarely in ME2 is hilarious, the fact that you apparently forget the Vindi runs dry after a few seconds is questionable and the idea that the Rev only works as a spray-and-pray is an old cliche that lost credence not long after ME2 came out.

The Vindicator is definitely a precision tool. Great for headshots, most definitely. It doesn't, however, have any endurance whatsoever, becomes clumsy in close range situations and it's effectiveness on bosses leaves a lot to be desired. They're two completely different rifles. At medium range the two weapons are very similar in effectiveness - what the Rev lacks in sheer per-shot damage it makes up for in the fact that it can keep firing for the same amount of time the Vindi would spend shooting two clips (and effectively ~47% of your total ammo). The Vindi is better at long range, but at short range the slow rof of the Vindi makes it virtually useless.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 19 mai 2010 - 10:56 .

[JaegerBane]

Omicrone wrote...
EDIT: Jaeger, I agree with you about Widow dealing more damage than some enemies have hit points, but the topic is about bosses/elites. In most cases they do survive 1 shot from the widow.

Well, realistically, how many bosses/elites in this game are so small that the recoil on the Viper is a major issue but have enough hitpoints to make Widow shots worthwhile? Even Harbinger doesn't last long against half a Viper clip.

[tonnactus]

And to add some thing in the comparison of the vindicator vs. revenant: The revenant has a higher armor multiplier then the revenant.All bosses seem to have more armor then shields/barrier.

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

cruc1al wrote...

@ JaegerBane

You've still got it backwards. The fact that Widow's rate of fire is lower means that you have to aim for longer than with Viper, whether you like it or not. And that you're aiming longer per shot means you have higher hit percentage. That fact alone narrows the DPS gap between the two weapons.

That's probably why I'm apparently getting it 'backwards' - you've taken a side effect of a slower rate of fire weapon and somehow attributing that to your own performance. This is logically no different to claiming guns with smaller clips are more accurate on the basis that you spend more time choosing your shots. It's flat out silly.

If it's flat out silly, then you're just not getting it.

My whole point is that with any skill level, your accuracy is better when you take time to aim. You can't disprove that. I'm not saying a slow firing weapon is somehow inherently more accurate than a fast firing one, that would be stupid. You can fire a fast firing weapon more slowly in order to hit better.

Differences in hit percentage are essentially multipliers to base DPS. Slow-firing weapons by definition take more time to aim, hence you're more accurate with them than by shooting fast with fast-firing weapon. Widow tends to have a higher hit percentage than Viper because Viper tends to be shot faster than Widow. If you disagree with this, I wonder what part of my argument you're having trouble with.

Modifié par cruc1al, 20 mai 2010 - 12:41 .

[SuperMedbh]

Interesting question, as I'm redoing my Soldier run right now. First time, I took the Widow, now I'm using the Revenant. The Widow has that "reach out and touch someone" utility. In short, for a fight in which you get to hunker down, it will kerpow most bosses. And if you run low on ammo (or don't care to waste a Widow shot on an easy opponent), your Vindicator will work terrifically at long range.



The Revenant is a completely different animal-- the playstyle comes closer to Vanguard than Infiltrator. But once you get close, wow! With Inferno Blast ammo, it quite literally melts high value enemies. Krogan battlemasters don't get close, Harbinger shuts up in no time. And if you do need to fight at range, the Viper does pretty well for itself. It's not the Widow (I don't care what DPS says, it's not). But it's darned good.



Bottom line, do you like close in fights or long range fights?

[RGFrog]

Agree with this. It is a whole different beast.

I don't usually choose the Rev. as I have an nearly impossible time controlling it. Mainly because I play most classes as a marksman from the back and rarely let the enemy get close to me (I throw squadies at them first).

The Vin. is a much better AR for me, than the Rev, and the Widow is a much better choice for as you said reaching out and touching someone.

However, you have me intrigued with the Inferno ammo... It's something I'm going to give a try! Thanks.

[Lucazius]

Here's some math why the Revenant is better than the Widow for a soldier:



Widow base damage: 368,3

With Hardened AR, you'll be able to fire one shot for 368,3 plus 100% bonus damage = 736,6



Revenant base damage: 21,3

While under hardened AR you'll be able to fire at least 20 shots for 21,3*20 damage plus the 100% bonus damage totalizing 852.



Anyway math doesn't apply to playstyle, both weapons are awesome, but the Revenant is better overall for the soldier.

[mosor]

SuperMedbh wrote...


The Revenant is a completely different animal-- the playstyle comes closer to Vanguard than Infiltrator. But once you get close, wow! With Inferno Blast ammo, it quite literally melts high value enemies. Krogan battlemasters don't get close, Harbinger shuts up in no time. And if you do need to fight at range, the Viper does pretty well for itself. It's not the Widow (I don't care what DPS says, it's not). But it's darned good.

Bottom line, do you like close in fights or long range fights?

Add kasumi's flashbang and energy drain (if fighting shielded enemies) and it's a slaughterfest with the revvy and inferno. Disruptor on geth kills them fast and geth have a good chance of collapsing even before they die using the rev.

Personally, I think a lot of people got shy on insanity to get up close and personal if they didn't have a way to recharge their shields (like using a sentinel or vanguard). You just have to be more brave with the revvy and it will work magic. Just think Scarface and yell "Say hello to my little friend!"

Modifié par mosor, 20 mai 2010 - 02:44 .

[JaegerBane]

cruc1al wrote...
My whole point is that with any skill level, your accuracy is better when you take time to aim. You can't disprove that. I'm not saying a slow firing weapon is somehow inherently more accurate than a fast firing one, that would be stupid. You can fire a fast firing weapon more slowly in order to hit better.

Differences in hit percentage are essentially multipliers to base DPS. Slow-firing weapons by definition take more time to aim, hence you're more accurate with them than by shooting fast with fast-firing weapon. Widow tends to have a higher hit percentage than Viper because Viper tends to be shot faster than Widow. If you disagree with this, I wonder what part of my argument you're having trouble with.

'Tends to be shot faster than the Widow' is the issue I'm taking excpetion to. While I've no doubt that to truly maximise the damage potential of the viper you need to take advantage of the rate of fire, most enemies in this game that are small enough for the recoil effects to adversely impact accuracy rate also have too little health for the massive damage per shot of the Widow to translate into a practical advantage.

Your supposition that since taking time to aim increases accuracy and the widow allows no other type of use relies completely on the idea that every enemy you kill would require the amount of damage per Widow shot to wipe out, and therefore the Viper would have to fire 4-5 shots to compensate. Not all enemies require 4-5 shots. The human-sized ones that do, tend to be accompanied by multiple backups who both require shooting (which would require popping behind cover, reloading and repeating) and potentially throw off your aim - therefore the assumption that simply by taking time to aim guarantees a hit to the extent that it should be incorporated into DPS levels lacks any level of practicality.

Bosses *would* require a lot more fire, most definitely... but bosses in this game tend to be substantially larger than your basic enemies. There isn't any issue at all with hitting 12 times in a row on something like Praetorian, and you'd be doing a hell of a lot more damage in the same time interval with the Viper. 

[HTTP 404]

I really like the widow for the soldier mainly because I like the assualt rifles. However if you get the revenant you probably will never use your pistol or your shotgun. The widow has great damage with a scope. Revenant is pretty good at mopping up baddies but the key is the move mid range to close to kill them fast.



I would recommend Revenant if you want to mop up the run of the mill enemies and the Widow for the tough enemies and bosses. The bottom line is whatever you feel is the best, try them both out (save)



All this is just my opinion, I notice people on this thread throwing out scientific experiments on weapons damage, firing rate, accuarcy, etc.

[Lumikki]

EA_BiowareAccount wrote...

I would recommend Revenant if you want to mop up the run of the mill enemies and the Widow for the tough enemies and bosses. The bottom line is whatever you feel is the best, try them both out (save)

Yeah, basicly it's more like playing style, how player wants to play.

When I look differences between viber and widow, it's the playing style. Meaning in widow you are alot behind cover and do fast high damage sniper shots. With viper you are alot more open to enemy fire, but you can act little bit like you would have machine gun in hand, but long distance one.

People here seem to look alot about DPS and even recoil/aiming. How ever, hardly no-one seem to look defence situations while using sertain weapons. Because other weapons allow you to be in cover alot more and still keep the high DPS than some others weapons. So, it's the style question, are you person who likes to go guns blazing in battle or are you person who looks more safer tactical solution to problem.

I allmost forgot. Also the situation defines what weapon to use. Like when there is enemies in long distance and they stay there. In this situation it's easy to snipe them down one by one from the cover. If there how ever is 10 husk running towards you, you pretty much can forgot the slow sniping and start using your high fire rate weapon. Meaning are the enemies staying in long distance and shooting you or are they trying to get in melee range. If they try to get on melee range then better fire rate weapon is better.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 mai 2010 - 09:48 .

[Omicrone]

JaegerBane wrote...

Bosses *would* require a lot more fire, most definitely... but bosses in this game tend to be substantially larger than your basic enemies. There isn't any issue at all with hitting 12 times in a row on something like Praetorian, and you'd be doing a hell of a lot more damage in the same time interval with the Viper. 

... and dying in the process cause you're staying out of cover for too long.

[cruc1al]

JaegerBane wrote...

'Tends to be shot faster than the Widow' is the issue I'm taking excpetion to. While I've no doubt that to truly maximise the damage potential of the viper you need to take advantage of the rate of fire, most enemies in this game that are small enough for the recoil effects to adversely impact accuracy rate also have too little health for the massive damage per shot of the Widow to translate into a practical advantage.

Your supposition that since taking time to aim increases accuracy and the widow allows no other type of use relies completely on the idea that every enemy you kill would require the amount of damage per Widow shot to wipe out, and therefore the Viper would have to fire 4-5 shots to compensate. Not all enemies require 4-5 shots. The human-sized ones that do, tend to be accompanied by multiple backups who both require shooting (which would require popping behind cover, reloading and repeating) and potentially throw off your aim - therefore the assumption that simply by taking timeto aim guarantees a hit to the extent that it should be incorporated into DPS levels lacks any level of practicality.

Bosses *would* require a lot more fire, most definitely... but bosses in this game tendto be substantially larger than your basic enemies. There isn't any issue at all with hitting 12 times in a row on something like Praetorian, and you'd be doing a hell of a lot more damage in the same time interval with the Viper. 

To the bolded parts-

1. Mob level enemies do require 4-5 shots, especially if you're not hitting the head all the time. Stronger enemies usually require at least double that.

2. I'm not saying taking the time guarantees a hit, I'm saying it increases the chances you'll hit. And I fail to see how it doesn't translate into any level of practicality. Really, what are you on about? Would you rather miss with the same percentage as you would with a fast-firing Viper? The point about Widow is that one shot is one kill for any mob-level enemy. Most don't even require AR. That translates directly into killing speed; it really doesn't matter if some of widow's damage is "wasted".

3. A hell of a lot more damage, huh? And this is based on personal experience? Check out my Sniper rifle anti-armor comparison (ymir mech). In my testing Widow was faster than Viper. Also note how I had to use medi-gel with the viper to keep up. Bosses, just like other enemies, tend to have weak spots. You're more likely to hit the weak spots with the slow-firing widow than with fast-firing viper.

Modifié par cruc1al, 20 mai 2010 - 10:29 .

[SmokeyNinjas]

cruc1al wrote...

SmokeyNinjas wrote...

Also slowmo Widow reloads are

There are no slomo reloads. Unless you use AR purely for reloading which you obviously shouldn't

Dam after my 1st solider run when i took the widow i got so sick of slowmo reloads that i decided i would never use the mantis or widow on the solider ever again<_<

But since you said there aint any slomo reloads i thought i would check it out again with the mantis & your right now when you fire in AR it wont even let you reload til AR is over WTF when did that change?

[mosor]

cruc1al wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

'Tends to be shot faster than the Widow' is the issue I'm taking excpetion to. While I've no doubt that to truly maximise the damage potential of the viper you need to take advantage of the rate of fire, most enemies in this game that are small enough for the recoil effects to adversely impact accuracy rate also have too little health for the massive damage per shot of the Widow to translate into a practical advantage.

Your supposition that since taking time to aim increases accuracy and the widow allows no other type of use relies completely on the idea that every enemy you kill would require the amount of damage per Widow shot to wipe out, and therefore the Viper would have to fire 4-5 shots to compensate. Not all enemies require 4-5 shots. The human-sized ones that do, tend to be accompanied by multiple backups who both require shooting (which would require popping behind cover, reloading and repeating) and potentially throw off your aim - therefore the assumption that simply by taking timeto aim guarantees a hit to the extent that it should be incorporated into DPS levels lacks any level of practicality.

Bosses *would* require a lot more fire, most definitely... but bosses in this game tendto be substantially larger than your basic enemies. There isn't any issue at all with hitting 12 times in a row on something like Praetorian, and you'd be doing a hell of a lot more damage in the same time interval with the Viper. 

To the bolded parts-

1. Mob level enemies do require 4-5 shots, especially if you're not hitting the head all the time. Stronger enemies usually require at least double that.

2. I'm not saying taking the time guarantees a hit, I'm saying it increases the chances you'll hit. And I fail to see how it doesn't translate into any level of practicality. Really, what are you on about? Would you rather miss with the same percentage as you would with a fast-firing Viper? The point about Widow is that one shot is one kill for any mob-level enemy. Most don't even require AR. That translates directly into killing speed; it really doesn't matter if some of widow's damage is "wasted".

3. A hell of a lot more damage, huh? And this is based on personal experience? Check out my Sniper rifle anti-armor comparison (ymir mech). In my testing Widow was faster than Viper. Also note how I had to use medi-gel with the viper to keep up. Bosses, just like other enemies, tend to have weak spots. You're more likely to hit the weak spots with the slow-firing widow than with fast-firing viper.

It's faster by a second, true. I just like the viper better because I don't mind wasting bullets on enemies that have have half health to finish them off. It really is a playstyle difference though. The viper does the job really well long distance. The widow is only better if you're great at shooting enemies dead without the AR turned on.

 For me, small enemies that like to strafe I'll miss often enough without the AR turned on, which makes the  widow really ineffecient in my hands.  With the Viper, I don't mind shooting a bullet to the body to stop them straifing and then go for the headshots. With the AR turned on, I usually kill with 3, sometimes 4 bullets (if I don't get a headshot) on low level enemies. Thats good enough for me.

On the other hand, I like being up close and personal on a soldier. Using the vindicator/widow and the odd time shotgun when enemies get really close makes me feel all I am doing is sniping. The revvy lets me change up my gameplan. I find it more fun than the shotgun. I can spray multiple enemies with inferno and make them all panic with it. It gives me the most versitility in playstyle.

[RGFrog]

SmokeyNinjas wrote...

Dam after my 1st solider run when i took the widow i got so sick of slowmo reloads that i decided i would never use the mantis or widow on the solider ever again<_<

But since you said there aint any slomo reloads i thought i would check it out again with the mantis & your right now when you fire in AR it wont even let you reload til AR is over WTF when did that change?

I think the time dialation only slows down your perception. If it takes a second to reload, then it still takes a second to reload in AR, just that second lasts 50% or 70% longer from Shep's point of view. This merely affords you the control time to ensure every shot you shoot durring that time dialation is accurate.

With AR, you could potentially make every shot from the Widow a headshot. So if you can get 3 shots off in a second and all three can be controlled within that game second (not the few seconds you experience in your chair), then the AR is doing one of it's jobs. Whereas without AR you may only be able to controll the muzzle rise enough to line up 1 of the 3 shots as a headshot.

However, with the widow or mantis where a reload can take longer, you may only get one shot off since game time is still the same, just your perception has slowed down. This is why it's not ideal to use AR for reloads as it still takes the same ammount of time and you lose all the potential for shot correction the slowdown allows for.

[OniGanon]

The best boss-killer short of a heavy weapon is the Viper. The only exception to this that I can think of is Scions because of their massive headshot flinching.

The Widow's strength is in quickly dispatching weaker enemies. Anything that survives one of its shots usually plays into the Viper's hands.

The Revanent or shotguns are handicapped by their range. Bosses are enemies you usually are forced to fight at a distance (Terminator, Thresher Maw etc), or are just the kind of enemy you don't want to fight close up anyway (YMIR, Praetorian).


As for Praetorians and cover, they along with YMIRs are usually best fought by placing cover between you and it and NOT being pressed against said cover. This way with fancy footwork you can be mostly safe from their fire while still being able to hit them. If you press yourself against cover, you can't attack them without your shields going down faster than you can say "OHSHI-"

Modifié par OniGanon, 20 mai 2010 - 07:27 .