64 réponses à ce sujet

[Rhys Cordelle]

Who doesn't?

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

You're assuming that Leliana had prior knowledge that Alistair was the last surviving son of Maric, and that you, who at the time of meeting her, barely knew Alistair, would become his lover.

No, I'm not actually.

Empress Celene (does anyone else think of Celine Dion when they type that?  I digress) was trying to make inroads into Ferelden, and is no fool.  She would not use only one method.  They infiltrated the Circle Tower before, in The Calling.  That is not going to work again.  But the Chantry would provide good cover.  Who would suspect a Chantry affiliate?  That would allow a person to move pretty freely in Fereldan society.  And Leliana never took vows, so she could easily leave her Chantry post as soon as something opportune came along.  At the time of the game, things in Ferelden are moving and she knows she is going to have to make a move one way or another.  Lo and behold she concocts a story about a vision, and ...

When you meet Leliana, you're just out of Flemeth's hut, post Ostagar. Seeing that at that time, no matter your origin, you as the Warden is known by next to no one.

When we meet her, she is in the presence of Loghain's men.  Whether she is just watching them, or with them, hard to say.

I think she could have been placed as a kind of "sleeper," and maybe had no specific target, simply to look for a way to move into power into Ferelden.  Celene would have known about Alistair I'm sure, but it's more likely she would have had Cailan in mind.  The fact that she comes across Alistair need not have been the plan at all, merely a happy chance.

[Rhys Cordelle]

Why would a spy lock herself away as a cloistered sister for so long if her objective was to obtain a position of power?



I think people are reading far too much into it.

[Addai]

Valentia X wrote...

Nah. The Guardian would have picked up on that **** pretty damn quickly.

The Guardian tells her that her vision was not sincere.  He didn't have to reveal everything.  And if this is a plot element for a continuation of the story, then he wouldn't have.  He doesn't reveal Morrigan's plan, either.

Granted, you don't have to take Leliana with you but we would have seen more of an indication that 'zomg ORLESIAN' biases. Plus, after what the Orlesian guards presumably did to her after Marjolaine framed her, I doubt she would have been in any sort of hurry back there.

It's possible her story about prison is only a story.  Or it's conceivable that it actually happened- that Marjolaine felt threatened by her and framed her just as Leliana says- and in prison, they broke her.  In steps Celene and says "I have a way you can redeem yourself."  Just like Loghain did with Jowan.

Plus this would all hinge on Leliana being able to get close to Alistair, which would be unlikely without the Blight, something I doubt would have been considered.

I'll go with the Occam's Razor answer for this one.

Again, you're assuming that Alistair is the target.  I'm not.

[Sarah1281]

The Guardian tells her that her vision was not sincere. He didn't have to reveal everything. And if this is a plot element for a continuation of the story, then he wouldn't have. He doesn't reveal Morrigan's plan, either.

Or that Alistair is Maric's if you don't already know and I think 'why are you pretending you're not an heir' is more of a difficult question then 'so you have survivior's guilt, huh?'

[Addai]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

Why would a spy lock herself away as a cloistered sister for so long if her objective was to obtain a position of power?

I think people are reading far too much into it.

She was in the cloister for two years.  That is deep cover, but not inconceivable for undercover operations.  She's an Orlesian, she is not going to be easily trusted among the nobles.  But if she's wearing a Chantry robe, that's a different story.

The fact that she is in Lothering could simply be game mechanics- you need a lockpicker soon out of Ostagar.  But someplace out of the way would be a good way to infiltrate Fereldan society.  It would not be very long before she might get a post in Denerim and then she could move on from there.

Honestly, you people need to give the writers more credit. 

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, even Loghain did not come up with a theory like this.

Loghain seems to make no objection about his daughter's maid, who certainly is an Orlesian bard, at least by trade if not still in the employ.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Out of curiosity, where do you fit Marjoleine in this?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I dunno. I still think running from Marjolaine seems the best bet, there seems no in game suggestion that she's still active.

[Merilsell]

Good to know.

[Axekix]

OldMan91 wrote...

I'm going to agree with this.

I agree with Emerald, you and your signature.

Ah, a man of sophisticated tastes!

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I dunno. I still think running from Marjolaine seems the best bet, there seems no in game suggestion that she's still active.

The question the PC can ask her is a suggestion.  It always seemed an odd thing for my PC to ask, because you do seem to bump into her so serendipitously, so how could she be spying on you?  And yet there it is in the game.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I dunno. I still think running from Marjolaine seems the best bet, there seems no in game suggestion that she's still active.

The question the PC can ask her is a suggestion.  It always seemed an odd thing for my PC to ask, because you do seem to bump into her so serendipitously, so how could she be spying on you?  And yet there it is in the game.

I remember the question, but it seemed like a legit possible question to pose, after discovering her past. Given the situation your Warden is in, and her revelation, it seems like a natural thing to ask.

I do not think she's an operative, but a fugative. The sincerity of her vision and reasons for traveling with you are open to interpretation and doubt, but I don't think she's working for anyone. Nothing I've seen in game suggests any curious, current ties.

I think she's just a creepy chick-stalker with some....issues.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Out of curiosity, where do you fit Marjoleine in this?

If you follow the scenario I laid out above, Marjolaine could simply have been her mentor who began to feel threatened by her.  As for why she follows Leliana into Ferelden, it needn't be any different than what the game says- personal vendetta. 

You should really think about this theory, KoP.  It would bolster the defense of Loghain that the Orlesians were working on various levels of Fereldan society.  I could even see Loghain finding out about Leliana and taking her into his own employ.  He goes through Lothering right before your party does, and as I said, Leliana is with Loghain men when you first meet her.  If you think about Erlina's presence with Anora, Loghain may think it better to have some Orlesians in his back pocket.  He is crafty that way, you have to admit.  I think it more likely that Leliana would simply have been watching Loghain's men and looking for an opportunity to get out of Dodge in some way that might benefit her.

I should add again that I don't see this as overruling a later romance with the Warden, or even a sincere romance with Alistair.  Katriel really did fall for Maric, after all.  She eventually fell for him so hard that she tried to give up the life for him, and she might have succeeded if Loghain hadn't set her up.  In the same way that Morrigan has ulterior motives when she joins your party but can come to have sincere feelings for the Warden, romantic or friendly, the same thing might be going on with Leliana.

[Swoo]

Addai67 wrote...

In asking Leliana about her background, the PC can ask her if she was sent there to spy on him.  Naturally, she denies it.

How much sense does it make to think that Leliana is still operating as a bard in the game?

Now, take this silly little DLC we got this week, and the tidbit thrown in about Leliana and Alistair being lovers.  What greater coup would there be for an Orlesian spy than to be the lover of the Fereldan king?

First, I just want to say I'm surprised it took something like TDSC to bring up the possibility of a Alistair-Leliana pairing in game. It seems like it would have made great in-game banter as the opposite to Morrigan-Sten. Now excuse me for five minutes while I upgrade my keep defenses for the onslaught of Alistarian fans and their really big rocks.

As to Leliana, it's possible but I find it highly unlikely. The main sticking point is you would have to completely write off her entire personality minus some of the smallest quirks as nothing but a cover. The Warden would have just been a lucky coincidence; The Empress knew, directly from Calian's own hand, where the nobility and most of Ferelden's 'Men of Honor and Arms' would be stationed, and knew that stationing someone in Lothering would have the highest success chance of forcing a planned random meeting with any manner of noble or mark. So setting up a Bard months in advance there isn't completely crazy.

Like I said though, if true Leliana's personality is an entire sham. The big thing is Marjoline (which I am probably misspelling). That would be an intentional sacrifice in the name of the Orlesian Empire to solidify the position of a sleeper agent. Totally logical and anyone in the real world could see a scenario going down like that, but for her to not only dance the tune but completely carry it out and then fake the remorse after the fact - that's a completely cold, calculating assassin who shed's personalities and compatriots like most people do clothes. It would paint all her actions and statements from the beginning to the end with a different brush.

Personally, I think Marjoline and yourself Addai were getting information from the same unreliable sources   Leliana was staying in character by doing what they do in the stories when they want to turn over a new leaf, repent and join the simple folk and toil in obscurity in a small villiage (until something grand reappears and draws them back into the action and danger!).

Good theory though, and I love meh some conspiracy theories.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

You should really think about this theory, KoP.  It would bolster the defense of Loghain that the Orlesians were working on various levels of Fereldan society. 

That's no secret, Orlais has a vested interest in knowing what happens East of its borders especially when they are sending 4 legions of chevaliers, but it doesn't have to be Leliana.

Your theory assumes that Marjolaine had no idea that Leliana was employed by Celene, otherwise she would not have dared disrupt her activities. But wouldn't you think that Celene would have made sure Marjolaine (the one that has interest in killing Leliana) does not try to kill her agent?

Furthermore, your theory does not take into account all epilogues. Only one ending has her return to Orlais and it's to hunt Marjolaine and one ending has her stay in Ferelden's court as mistress (that's the only likely ending that could validate your theory). Other epilogues include her going to the Sacred Urns to be a guardian of pilgrims (unhardened), or go to the deep roads to investigate the darkspawn (hardened). I do not see how that's something an Orlesian agent sent to learn about Ferelden would do.
 
I am not saying your theory is impossible, nor is it uninteresting. If played correctly, I could see it be interesting. But we do not have enough evidence to believe Leliana was an active agent of Celene all along. So for now, I am taking her for her word.  

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's no secret, Orlais has a vested interest in knowing what happens East of its borders especially when they are sending 4 legions of chevaliers, but it doesn't have to be Leliana.

Doesn't have to be, but why couldn't it be?  And why would the writers miss a storytelling twist like this?

I'm skeptical to pull too much meaning out of anything in the latest DLC, but the reason I started thinking about this (in the midst of Alistarian rage, I admit) is that the codex makes a point of saying that Alistair and Leliana were lovers.  Why?  It could simply be someone said "hey, those two both like the Maker, I bet they'd do it", or else they thought to stir the fangirl rage simply for the lulz.  I could believe either of those.  But they also let slip something else in the codex- that Alistair "believed" Goldanna was his sister.  It may be that these are hints of things to come.

Your theory assumes that Marjolaine had no idea that Leliana was employed by Celene, otherwise she would not have dared disrupt her activities. But wouldn't you think that Celene would have made sure Marjolaine (the one that has interest in killing Leliana) does not try to kill her agent?

One hand might not know what the other is doing.  Or there is something else going on with Marjolaine.  Her turning up in Ferelden is pretty "timely," too, when you think about it, especially when the border with Orlais is heavily guarded.  I'm not sure, to be honest.

Furthermore, your theory does not take into account all epilogues. Only one ending has her return to Orlais and it's to hunt Marjolaine and one ending has her stay in Ferelden's court as mistress (that's the only likely ending that could validate your theory). Other epilogues include her going to the Sacred Urns to be a guardian of pilgrims (unhardened), or go to the deep roads to investigate the darkspawn (hardened). I do not see how that's something an Orlesian agent sent to learn about Ferelden would do.

Epilogues are infinitely fluid, as we should have found out by now.  However, I don't think my theory is ruled out by any of these.  If she's to infiltrate Ferelden, she never would have to go back to Orlais, not for any length of time.  She could also have a sincere change of heart and decide to go off the reservation.  The "hardening" moment for Leliana reminds me a lot of Katriel's attempt to confess to Maric when they are in the Deep Roads together.  Go back and read that scene with the two of them.  Katriel is trying to tell him, "you don't really know me."  He says "you're a good person."  And she wants to believe him so badly, she decides to make what he is saying true.  is that not exactly what happens if the Warden leaves Leliana unhardened?  If she's hardened, however, she disappears into the Deep Roads.  How do you know where she eventually ends up?

[Remy LeBeau]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Guardian tells her that her vision was not sincere. He didn't have to reveal everything. And if this is a plot element for a continuation of the story, then he wouldn't have. He doesn't reveal Morrigan's plan, either.

Or that Alistair is Maric's if you don't already know and I think 'why are you pretending you're not an heir' is more of a difficult question then 'so you have survivior's guilt, huh?'

Maybe Leiliana has psychic powers.Hey,she could be Professor Xavier's daughter.

[Addai]

Swoo wrote...

Like I said though, if true Leliana's personality is an entire sham. The big thing is Marjoline (which I am probably misspelling). That would be an intentional sacrifice in the name of the Orlesian Empire to solidify the position of a sleeper agent. Totally logical and anyone in the real world could see a scenario going down like that, but for her to not only dance the tune but completely carry it out and then fake the remorse after the fact - that's a completely cold, calculating assassin who shed's personalities and compatriots like most people do clothes. It would paint all her actions and statements from the beginning to the end with a different brush.

No, I think the thing with Marjolaine could be completely parallel to what I'm talking about.  Marjolaine was her mentor, but it seems to me she could have started to feel threatened by Leliana.  There could be any number of reasons for Marjolaine to decide she was better off dead.  Maybe it really was just as Leliana describes- Leliana knew too much.  So I don't see Leliana's remorse over Marjolaine as insincere.

But I mean, read again what you're saying.  "Leliana's personality is a sham."  What exactly is the definition of bard if it is not being the woman you need to be for the moment?  Isn't there even a line of Leliana's dialogue where she says exactly that?  Something like, "I make myself the woman they want me to be."

I simply think she could be a much better bard than anyone suspects. 

BTW I ran this by my husband to ensure that I was not simply speaking out of Alistair fangirl rage.  He likes Leliana and has romanced her with several of his PCs.  He thinks it's an entirely plausible theory, based mainly on the line of dialogue in the game where you can ask Leliana if she is there to spy on you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I'm skeptical to pull too much meaning out of anything in the latest DLC, but the reason I started thinking about this (in the midst of Alistarian rage, I admit) is that the codex makes a point of saying that Alistair and Leliana were lovers.  Why?  It could simply be someone said "hey, those two both like the Maker, I bet they'd do it", or else they thought to stir the fangirl rage simply for the lulz.  I could believe either of those.  But they also let slip something else in the codex- that Alistair "believed" Goldanna was his sister.  It may be that these are hints of things to come.

I wouldn't take anything said in the DLC seriously to be honest. Otherwise I have to accept the possibility of Heren being a desire demon, which is plain idiotic.
And I don't see any real significance on Alistair and Leli falling in love, except maybe to say that Alistair would not die a virgin. I think it's reading too much in a DLC that was not meant to be taken seriously.

One hand might not know what the other is doing.  Or there is something else going on with Marjolaine.  Her turning up in Ferelden is pretty "timely," too, when you think about it, especially when the border with Orlais is heavily guarded.  I'm not sure, to be honest.

If Celene wanted to make sure Leliana succeeded, she would have also made sure that Marjolaine doesn't kill her. I do not see Celene, described as being very smart, compeltely failing to take this into account.  

And Orlesian traders could still presumabely cross the border. Only the army couldn't. Plus Marjolaine is ressourceful, so crossing the borders wouldn't be a problem. 

Epilogues are infinitely fluid, as we should have found out by now.  However, I don't think my theory is ruled out by any of these.  If she's to infiltrate Ferelden, she never would have to go back to Orlais, not for any length of time.  She could also have a sincere change of heart and decide to go off the reservation.  The "hardening" moment for Leliana reminds me a lot of Katriel's attempt to confess to Maric when they are in the Deep Roads together.  Go back and read that scene with the two of them.  Katriel is trying to tell him, "you don't really know me."  He says "you're a good person."  And she wants to believe him so badly, she decides to make what he is saying true.  is that not exactly what happens if the Warden leaves Leliana unhardened?  If she's hardened, however, she disappears into the Deep Roads.  How do you know where she eventually ends up?

It is precisely because epilogues are fluid with Leliana, that the theory of an overarching plan behind her is unlikely. With Morrigan, it's clear, with or without child, she is heading west.

Furthermore, Leliana's pilgrim or deep road ending does not need the PC to be nice with her at all. So she has no real reason to have a change of heart, if the PC was indifferent, and yet she still does things that I do not see an Orlesian spy doing. It's possible that she might go to the deep roads and then to Orlais, but why risk her life?
Wouldn't it be more beneficial for Orlais to spy on the Monarchy instead of the deep roads?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 mai 2010 - 04:09 .

[Kryyptehk]

I agree about the Deep Roads thing. One ending is to go looking for Marjolaine, so why would she go back to Orlais when the only thing she can tell Celene is that Alistair/Anora is king/queen? She doesn't have any info at that point.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I wouldn't take anything said in the DLC seriously to be honest. Otherwise I have to accept the possibility of Heren being a desire demon, which is plain idiotic.
And I don't see any real significance on Alistair and Leli falling in love, except maybe to say that Alistair would not die a virgin. I think it's reading too much in a DLC that was not meant to be taken seriously.

The DLC confuses me, to be honest.  It's either a complete joke, or else we do have to take it seriously to the extent we can.

I've been thinking complete joke, but things like this actually make me feel better about the franchise.  Maybe they did think about the story when they made it, even if it is "alternate universe" and just meant to be a quick hack and slash for a few bucks.

If Celene wanted to make sure Leliana succeeded, she would have also made sure that Marjolaine doesn't kill her. I do not see Celene, described as being very smart, compeltely failing to take this into account. 

Celene may not know what Marjolaine is doing.  She may think Leliana is already dead, after hearing about Ostagar and Lothering.

It is precisely because epilogues are fluid with Leliana, that the theory of an overarching plan behind her is unlikely. With Morrigan, it's clear, with or without child, she is heading west.

I don't think of this as a plan so much as a character twist with Leliana.

Wouldn't it be more beneficial for Orlais to spy on the Monarchy instead of the deep roads?

I am thinking of the Deep Roads as her chance to move elsewhere without being seen.  Another of Katriel's tricks.  But you're right that it would fit my theory better for Leliana to be more willing to stay with the PC, as Zevran does.

[Kryyptehk]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I wouldn't take anything said in the DLC seriously to be honest. Otherwise I have to accept the possibility of Heren being a desire demon, which is plain idiotic.
And I don't see any real significance on Alistair and Leli falling in love, except maybe to say that Alistair would not die a virgin. I think it's reading too much in a DLC that was not meant to be taken seriously.

The DLC confuses me, to be honest.  It's either a complete joke, or else we do have to take it seriously to the extent we can.

I've been thinking complete joke, but things like this actually make me feel better about the franchise.  Maybe they did think about the story when they made it, even if it is "alternate universe" and just meant to be a quick hack and slash for a few bucks.

If Celene wanted to make sure Leliana succeeded, she would have also made sure that Marjolaine doesn't kill her. I do not see Celene, described as being very smart, compeltely failing to take this into account. 

Celene may not know what Marjolaine is doing.  She may think Leliana is already dead, after hearing about Ostagar and Lothering.

It is precisely because epilogues are fluid with Leliana, that the theory of an overarching plan behind her is unlikely. With Morrigan, it's clear, with or without child, she is heading west.

I don't think of this as a plan so much as a character twist with Leliana.

Wouldn't it be more beneficial for Orlais to spy on the Monarchy instead of the deep roads?

I am thinking of the Deep Roads as her chance to move elsewhere without being seen.  Another of Katriel's tricks.  But you're right that it would fit my theory better for Leliana to be more willing to stay with the PC, as Zevran does.

My pet theory is that they wanted to do something with DA2 that requires a lot of money, and EA said no. So they cooked up something inexpensive to get a bit of money to fuel whatever it is they want to do.

Or, as I read somewhere, it was just an experiment and they thought it was funny enough to share.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Celene may not know what Marjolaine is doing.  She may think Leliana is already dead, after hearing about Ostagar and Lothering.

Before she sent her. If Celene found Leliana and employed her, then she must have found about the Marjolaine affair and how Marjolaine has an interest in killing Leliana. Celene would have convinced Marjolaine to leave Leliana alone. Which is not the case. Of course it could be that Marjolaine actually dared to defy the Empress. But I don't know.

I don't think of this as a plan so much as a character twist with Leliana.

A character twist that would have been more meaningful if it was done in the first game. I do nto see it being saved until a sequel, as it may lose much of its meaning and significance.

Leliana already has a plot twist. The fact that she is a bard and is not so innocent as she seemed to be. Nothing spectacular, but it's still a twist.  

Unless it's for an expansion? Possible.

I am thinking of the Deep Roads as her chance to move elsewhere without being seen.  Another of Katriel's tricks.  But you're right that it would fit my theory better for Leliana to be more willing to stay with the PC, as Zevran does.

Seems to be more problem than it's worth. She could have left easily and by other means. The Epilogue says that she does lead an expedition, so she does stay there for a while.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 mai 2010 - 04:33 .

[Swoo]

Unless it's for an expansion? Possible.

The Yoshimo Betrayal version 2?

It would floor me, and in a good way.