187 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Massadonious1 wrote...

The very model of a scientist salarian.

[Sajuro]

Barquiel wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Quarians: No.
The Quarians have the single largest fleet in the galaxy. Although not all of them are military craft they still outnumber the humans by a very large margin.

The quarian fleet is useless (too old), I think the alliance would win

the rest: I agree

Not so, Ramming speed!

[Dark_Caduceus]

Sajuro wrote...

I'm not a grammar freak, but please learn to spell before wanting to be taken seriously.

There were no errors in my last post, unless you're pedantic enough to demand an apostraphe after "ya".

[Dean_the_Young]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Just because I'm bored:


Who could the humans defeat in an all out war?


Turians: No.
The Turians have the largest military fleet in Council space. Going by the number of dreadnaughts they outnumber the Alliance fleetby atleast ten to one.

Fighter carriers, however, outrange even dreadnaughts, and are the field in which the Alliance has superiority. Dreadnaught counting is like trying to determine the path of WW2 by counting battleships. They were important, but cruisers and aircraft carriers were far more decisive.

Before the Battle of the Citadel the Turians would probably win by weight, but it was a battle that would wreck the galaxy like the Rebellions because Humans are mobile warriors. If you go by after the Battle for the Citadel, the only path in which the Turians and Humans would fight (let the Council die) would also see the Turians have a smaller fleet than the Humans in other regards as well, including Dreadnaughts.

Asari: No
Allthough the Asari fleet is disorganized, it is probably still far larger than the Alliance fleet. What is also important is that going to war with the Asari would be devastating to the Alliance's economy, seeing as how the Asari have the largest ecnomy in the galaxy and therefore many trade agreements with the Alliance.

Wrong approach.

The Asari fleet is entirely focused around the Destiny Ascension, which has the force of the rest of the Asari fleet combined. Without it, the Asari gave up galactic defense as a whole. While the DA is formidable, it's very much a case of all eggs in one very big, crucially important basket that can be overwhelmed by numbers.

Being the largest economy doesn't mean it's tied intricatly with the Alliance: it simply means it's the largest economy with the rest of the galaxy. While the Asari certainly have many trade agreements with the Alliance, that does not mean that suspending those agreements will cripple the Alliance, which produces it's own military/strategic gear.

Salarians: No
Although the Salarian fleet is small they make up for it with their intelligence services. Not even Cerberus can rival them.

Cerberus does rival them. That's a fact of the series.

The Salarian fleet isn't just small, it's small enough that their special forces comprise the vast majority of their military weight, while they intentially ally themselves with others to compensate for that weakness. The Asari are coalition builders by desire and inclination, but the Salarians build coalitions out of military necessity.

Krogan: Draw
The total number of Krogan in the galaxy is unknown. Also they don't seem to hae any kind of fleet or army. However as everyone knows they are extremely tough, they have a redundant nervous system, secondary and tertiary organs and can withstand radation and extreme temperatures. Also there are over 2 billion Krogan on Tuchanka alone. Although the Alliance might have a larger fleet, they would lose against the Krogan in a ground battle.

By that logic, the Turians could only have managed a draw against the Krogans, since the Krogans had all those advantages during the Rebellions.

The Turians did not only manage a draw against the Krogan.


Two billion is paltry compared to the number of humans on Earth alone. Saying that the Krogans would win in a land battle despite having the inferior fleet rather misses what happens when you don't have a superior fleet in the Mass Effect universe: you get bombarded into bunkers, and then bombarded out of them.

Quarians: No.
The Quarians have the single largest fleet in the galaxy. Although not all of them are military craft they still outnumber the humans by a very large margin.

Most Quarian ships aren't military. All of them are vital to the collective survival of the species. No matter if the humans are beaten in the end, the Quarians would lose if the Humans blew up just a few select ships.

The only way for the Quarians to win is not to win.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 21 mai 2010 - 02:55 .

[Sajuro]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I'm not a grammar freak, but please learn to spell before wanting to be taken seriously.

There were no errors in my last post, unless you're pedantic enough to demand an apostraphe after "ya".

I must apologize, but I wasn't able to get past the first few posts you made at the time of that post

[scorptatious]

[Dark_Caduceus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Just because I'm bored:


Who could the humans defeat in an all out war?


Turians: No.
The Turians have the largest military fleet in Council space. Going by the number of dreadnaughts they outnumber the Alliance fleetby atleast ten to one.

Fighter carriers, however, outrange even dreadnaughts, and are the field in which the Alliance has superiority. Dreadnaught counting is like trying to determine the path of WW2 by counting battleships. They were important, but cruisers and aircraft carriers were far more decisive.

Before the Battle of the Citadel the Turians would probably win by weight, but it was a battle that would wreck the galaxy like the Rebellions because Humans are mobile warriors. If you go by after the Battle for the Citadel, the only path in which the Turians and Humans would fight (let the Council die) would also see the Turians have a smaller fleet than the Humans in other regards as well, including Dreadnaughts.

Asari: No
Allthough the Asari fleet is disorganized, it is probably still far larger than the Alliance fleet. What is also important is that going to war with the Asari would be devastating to the Alliance's economy, seeing as how the Asari have the largest ecnomy in the galaxy and therefore many trade agreements with the Alliance.

Wrong approach.

The Asari fleet is entirely focused around the Destiny Ascension, which has the force of the rest of the Asari fleet combined. Without it, the Asari gave up galactic defense as a whole. While the DA is formidable, it's very much a case of all eggs in one very big, crucially important basket that can be overwhelmed by numbers.

Being the largest economy doesn't mean it's tied intricatly with the Alliance: it simply means it's the largest economy with the rest of the galaxy. While the Asari certainly have many trade agreements with the Alliance, that does not mean that suspending those agreements will cripple the Alliance, which produces it's own military/strategic gear.

Salarians: No
Although the Salarian fleet is small they make up for it with their intelligence services. Not even Cerberus can rival them.

Cerberus does rival them. That's a fact of the series.

The Salarian fleet isn't just small, it's small enough that their special forces comprise the vast majority of their military weight, while they intentially ally themselves with others to compensate for that weakness. The Asari are coalition builders by desire and inclination, but the Salarians build coalitions out of military necessity.

Krogan: Draw
The total number of Krogan in the galaxy is unknown. Also they don't seem to hae any kind of fleet or army. However as everyone knows they are extremely tough, they have a redundant nervous system, secondary and tertiary organs and can withstand radation and extreme temperatures. Also there are over 2 billion Krogan on Tuchanka alone. Although the Alliance might have a larger fleet, they would lose against the Krogan in a ground battle.

By that logic, the Turians could only have managed a draw against the Krogans, since the Krogans had all those advantages during the Rebellions.

The Turians did not only manage a draw against the Krogan.


Two billion is paltry compared to the number of humans on Earth alone. Saying that the Krogans would win in a land battle despite having the inferior fleet rather misses what happens when you don't have a superior fleet in the Mass Effect universe: you get bombarded into bunkers, and then bombarded out of them.

Quarians: No.
The Quarians have the single largest fleet in the galaxy. Although not all of them are military craft they still outnumber the humans by a very large margin.

Most Quarian ships aren't military. All of them are vital to the collective survival of the species. No matter if the humans are beaten in the end, the Quarians would lose if the Humans blew up just a few select ships.

The only way for the Quarians to win is not to win.

I don't even think the Destiny Ascension is all that practical. It's more of a deterrent, sort of "You want to attack the asari? Have fun with the biggest dreadnought in the known-galaxy". The Normandy SR-2 could probably give it a run for it's money.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Just because I'm bored:


Who could the humans defeat in an all out war?


Turians: No.
The Turians have the largest military fleet in Council space. Going by the number of dreadnaughts they outnumber the Alliance fleetby atleast ten to one.

Fighter carriers, however, outrange even dreadnaughts, and are the field in which the Alliance has superiority. Dreadnaught counting is like trying to determine the path of WW2 by counting battleships. They were important, but cruisers and aircraft carriers were far more decisive.

Before the Battle of the Citadel the Turians would probably win by weight, but it was a battle that would wreck the galaxy like the Rebellions because Humans are mobile warriors. If you go by after the Battle for the Citadel, the only path in which the Turians and Humans would fight (let the Council die) would also see the Turians have a smaller fleet than the Humans in other regards as well, including Dreadnaughts.

Asari: No
Allthough the Asari fleet is disorganized, it is probably still far larger than the Alliance fleet. What is also important is that going to war with the Asari would be devastating to the Alliance's economy, seeing as how the Asari have the largest ecnomy in the galaxy and therefore many trade agreements with the Alliance.

Wrong approach.

The Asari fleet is entirely focused around the Destiny Ascension, which has the force of the rest of the Asari fleet combined. Without it, the Asari gave up galactic defense as a whole. While the DA is formidable, it's very much a case of all eggs in one very big, crucially important basket that can be overwhelmed by numbers.

Being the largest economy doesn't mean it's tied intricatly with the Alliance: it simply means it's the largest economy with the rest of the galaxy. While the Asari certainly have many trade agreements with the Alliance, that does not mean that suspending those agreements will cripple the Alliance, which produces it's own military/strategic gear.

- The alliance is outnumbered
"As of 2183, the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the salarians  had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. During the year 2185, the dreadnought count is 39 turians, 20 asari, 16 salarians, and 8 humans."
cruisers, frigates: unknown

- asari/turians/salarians have a larger economy. Each council race can outproduce the alliance

- The first contact war was 30 years ago: human tactics (carriers, etc.) are known
http://masseffect.wi...arrier#Carriers
"Commander Shepard describes fighter carriers as an example of humanity demonstrating its ability to "think outside the box", which is evidenced by the fact that the Systems Alliance was the first to field these vessels."
I think the other races copied the idea, 30 years is more than enough time

- asari and turians are allied
The asari will probably upgrade the DA (Thanix canon)

Modifié par Barquiel, 21 mai 2010 - 03:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Humanity is also underplaying it's power compared to all the other races. It's one of the facets of it's strength: the Turians and all others already have largely militarized to their limits, while Humanity is already a significant power despite having a fraction of the population in any sort of military service. Humanity has more untapped potential relative to its size than the others, something even more underformed by the initial treaty limits. (That said, thank you for the Dreadnaught numbers).



The point about fighter carriers wasn't that humans are the only ones to have them, but that fighter carriers circumvent the traditional dreadnoughts. With Dreadnaughts limited by the Council treaties, Humanity has every inclination (and the historical basis, for post-WW1 buffs) to focus it's effort on the carriers instead.



Upgrading the firepower of the DA isn't going to make it better: already it's main gun can put down any single vessel of the Alliance Fleet. Thanix cannon will make dreadnaughts weaker, not stronger, until comparative generational upgrades to shielding comes along because Thanix cannons can be put on smaller ships without losing the firepower.

[Dark_Caduceus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Humanity is also underplaying it's power compared to all the other races. It's one of the facets of it's strength: the Turians and all others already have largely militarized to their limits, while Humanity is already a significant power despite having a fraction of the population in any sort of military service. Humanity has more untapped potential relative to its size than the others, something even more underformed by the initial treaty limits. (That said, thank you for the Dreadnaught numbers).

The point about fighter carriers wasn't that humans are the only ones to have them, but that fighter carriers circumvent the traditional dreadnoughts. With Dreadnaughts limited by the Council treaties, Humanity has every inclination (and the historical basis, for post-WW1 buffs) to focus it's effort on the carriers instead.

Upgrading the firepower of the DA isn't going to make it better: already it's main gun can put down any single vessel of the Alliance Fleet. Thanix cannon will make dreadnaughts weaker, not stronger, until comparative generational upgrades to shielding comes along because Thanix cannons can be put on smaller ships without losing the firepower.

All good points. Expanding on the first paragraph I think Mass Effect 1 really got it right by calling humanity the "sleeping giant", there isn't a race out there apart from the Reapers that isn't afraid of earth and its colonies initiating total war.

[Barquiel]

The  "sleeping giant" thing makes no sense to me (I know...it's ME1 lore)

In the 1930s/1940s, The United States were considered the sleeping giant (by some japanese admiral...iirc)
- a large population
- the US could out produce every other country
- more resources, etc.

economy
The alliance has the smallest economy.
asari: "they possess the largest single economy in the galaxy."
turians: "The turian economy is vastly larger than that of the Alliance, but cannot match the size and power of that of the asari."
salarians: "The salarian economy is the smallest of the three Council races, but still far larger than the Alliance."

population
Terra Nova has the highest population of any Alliance colony (4.4 million)
Illium (one of the youngest asari colonies): 84,900,000

resources (number of colonies)
no information...I don't know

Modifié par Barquiel, 21 mai 2010 - 10:12 .

[Flamin Jesus]

Barquiel wrote...

The  "sleeping giant" thing makes no sense to me (I know...it's ME1 lore)

In the 1930s/1940s, The United States were considered the sleeping giant (by some japanese admiral...iirc)
- a large population
- the US could out produce every other country
- more resources, etc.

economy
The alliance has the smallest economy.
asari: "they possess the largest single economy in the galaxy."
turians: "The turian economy is vastly larger than that of the Alliance, but cannot match the size and power of that of the asari."
salarians: "The salarian economy is the smallest of the three Council races, but still far larger than the Alliance."

population
Terra Nova has the highest population of any Alliance colony (4.4 million)
Illium (one of the youngest asari colonies): 84,900,000

resources (number of colonies)
no information...I don't know

It's irrelevant that a "humans win" scenario is completely implausible and illogical, it's a game made by humans for humans, so of course humanity would win everything and against everyone.
Now, if this was a real situation, humanity would doubtlessly go the way of the Dodo (Or Rachni).

Although I considered the "sleeping giant" thing to be more about potential (Seeing how humanity in the ME universe managed to amass its modest power in far shorter a time than most other species) than anything else.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

The  "sleeping giant" thing makes no sense to me (I know...it's ME1 lore)

In the 1930s/1940s, The United States were considered the sleeping giant (by some japanese admiral...iirc)
- a large population
- the US could out produce every other country
- more resources, etc.


economy
The alliance has the smallest economy.
asari: "they
possess the largest single economy in the galaxy."
turians: "The
turian economy is vastly larger than that of the Alliance, but cannot
match the size and power of that of the asari."
salarians: "The
salarian economy is the smallest of the three Council races, but still
far larger than the Alliance."

The Admiral you're looking for is Admiral Yamamoto.

The US wasn't really a sleeping giant for the reasons you mention: they play a part, but the first has never been decisive in a naval war/expeditionary war (Germany had more forces on the Eastern front in one year alone than served in the entire US Army during the war), the second wasn't really known until many years later, and the third is a matter of 'do you have enough' as opposed to 'do you have the most'.

The Sleeping Giant metaphor comes from the country's position in the Depression: it had large excesses of labor and productivity that were not being used for economic reasons. A country which has the latent potential to exercise far more power than it does now is a sleeping giant.



Economy is something that doesn't translate into direct military strength. It never has, and likely never will. Economy, like resources, is necessary for the ability to sustain a war, but it does not win it, especially without the political will behind it. The European Union, for example, is the single largest economy in the world, but in military matters and hard power it is effectively dwarfed by even medium powers in the areas that matter and is highly dependent on outside assistance for any sort of logistical lift outside Europe. (Chad two years ago was an embarassment in the inability to even field a minimum number of helicopters needed for operations for some time.)

Of all three, despite having the greatest economy the Asari are the militarily weakest. Quite frankly, they can't use their advantages of economy (attrition, numbers) in an all-out war to push the humans into place because their pacifist culture won't tolerate it. Nearly all their willingness is invested in a single dreadnaught, and even with the galactic controversy over the Destiny Ascension's death, the Asari gave up on overall galactic defense. That was an event that some called a stab in the back: in a war for the sake of war, Asari casualties would make for far worse than the anti-war movement against Iraq. The Asari are the least threat because they don't have the will or political mindset to do it.

The Salarians are likely equal, but for their own lore reasons they are limited already. As giants go, they are awake, old, and extended. Hold the line they could, but advancing the line would be much harder. It's a large part of why they want to work together with others.

The Turians are the only power that could undoubtably win a war of attrition, but it would not be a role over in the least. Even before the events of ME1, it was speculated that a full scale First Contact War would have ravaged much of the galaxy with immense harm due to the difference in Turian and Alliance strategies. Since then, the odds have only evened. Such a war is why the Turians don't attack, and why Humanity can aggressively advance it's position and interests: no matter how much the Turians detest whatever Shepard does, starting a war far outweights the cost of accepting it.

[C9316]

Turians would destory humans if they so pleased they learned from the Relay 314 incident not to underestimate humans not to mention they have one of the largest fleet in council space, practically every turian has combat experience and turians have a much stronger resolve so if it was all out war they'd be able to outlast humans(and if by aliens you do mean all aliens then humanity is screwed)

[Dean_the_Young]

Flamin Jesus wrote...


It's irrelevant that a "humans win" scenario is completely implausible and illogical, it's a game made by humans for humans, so of course humanity would win everything and against everyone.
Now, if this was a real situation, humanity would doubtlessly go the way of the Dodo (Or Rachni).

Since the series does go on more than a little about how humans are outweighed and outnumbered, the first assertion is false.

If this were a real situation, the Citadel, Mass Relays, and Reapers would never exist, and neither would all the other species look just like humans with funny hands and faces.





All that said, I think a more reasonable justification for the near equality would have been simple enough: the Prothean cache on mars was actually the most intact and advanced Prothean tech find in galactic history that escaped Reaper searches, while the other races had to work the hard way from the Reaper-intended tech-eradication. Add in more time to assimilate/adapt the tech for humans, and humanity isn't so much special as just lucky to get to reverse-engineer top-of-the-line Prothean tech while everyone else had to do with scraps.

[Dean_the_Young]

C9316 wrote...

Turians would destory humans if they so pleased they learned from the Relay 314 incident not to underestimate humans not to mention they have one of the largest fleet in council space, practically every turian has combat experience and turians have a much stronger resolve so if it was all out war they'd be able to outlast humans(and if by aliens you do mean all aliens then humanity is screwed)

The Turians would have won in the end, but it would not have been as easy as 'if they so pleased'. (Turian) planets would have been razed by Alliance raids, and casualties comparable to the Rebellions from the fighting.

[Flamin Jesus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...


It's irrelevant that a "humans win" scenario is completely implausible and illogical, it's a game made by humans for humans, so of course humanity would win everything and against everyone.
Now, if this was a real situation, humanity would doubtlessly go the way of the Dodo (Or Rachni).

Since the series does go on more than a little about how humans are outweighed and outnumbered, the first assertion is false.

You misunderstand, I realize that the humans are outweighed and outnumbered (Which is why I said a human victory in the ME universe would be implausible and illogical), but that doesn't matter in entertainment, because it's always "Humans win! Why? Because we say so!"

All that said, I think a more reasonable justification for the near equality would have been simple enough: the Prothean cache on mars was actually the most intact and advanced Prothean tech find in galactic history that escaped Reaper searches, while the other races had to work the hard way from the Reaper-intended tech-eradication. Add in more time to assimilate/adapt the tech for humans, and humanity isn't so much special as just lucky to get to reverse-engineer top-of-the-line Prothean tech while everyone else had to do with scraps.

I agree, I'm a little tired of this whole humanity-is-special theme, I'm also not overly fond of the usual the-underdog-always-wins story.
But, eh, nothing to be done about it...

[C9316]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Turians would destory humans if they so pleased they learned from the Relay 314 incident not to underestimate humans not to mention they have one of the largest fleet in council space, practically every turian has combat experience and turians have a much stronger resolve so if it was all out war they'd be able to outlast humans(and if by aliens you do mean all aliens then humanity is screwed)

The Turians would have won in the end, but it would not have been as easy as 'if they so pleased'. (Turian) planets would have been razed by Alliance raids, and casualties comparable to the Rebellions from the fighting.

The Krogans tried something similar to razing their colonies(they dropped asteroids and other assorted items lol) but this strengthed turian resolve which I think would increase the number of turians volunteering to fight while human support would decline and possibly defect from the alliance because of the many atrocities the turians would inflict upon them but I guess I was a little biased in saying the turians would win easily they'd problaby lose people too

[Dean_the_Young]

The point is not that it would break Turian resolve, but that the cost of winning the war would be massive. The Krogan Rebellions were catastrophic in and of themselves: any sort of repeat would shape the galaxy for thousands of years to come (presuming that Sovereign doesn't but in to take advantage: scary thought!).

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Turians are the only power that could undoubtably win a war of attrition, but it would not be a role over in the least. Even before the events of ME1, it was speculated that a full scale First Contact War would have ravaged much of the galaxy with immense harm due to the difference in Turian and Alliance strategies. Since then, the odds have only evened. Such a war is why the Turians don't attack, and why Humanity can aggressively advance it's position and interests: no matter how much the Turians detest whatever Shepard does, starting a war far outweights the cost of accepting it.

asari=pacifists...I don't know
-They declared open war against the krogans because they settled an asari colony
-They fought a war against the rachni for nearly a century
The asari probably won't strike first (unprovoked), you're right. But they have 20 dreadnaughts left (everything else is just speculation) and can always build a new Destiny Ascension...or a fleet of Destiny Ascensions

renegade ending
I think you'll see another war between turians and humans (after all is said and done...ME3 epilogue).
at the moment: They recover from their losses and rebuild their forces
The asari will probably support the turians economicly (= US/GB 1939-41)
We know: "an embargo by the asari would prove disastrous to the Alliance"

Modifié par Barquiel, 21 mai 2010 - 11:39 .

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

It is said that an embargo by the asari would greatly harm the Alliance. If our business interests are hurt like that you can guarantee that factions within the Alliance, whom have a lot of pull, will pressure the Alliance brass to make peace. The asari would defeat us through politics.

they could win a war of attrition as well... or they could land the remaining two Ardat Yakshi on earth and tell them to go crazy

[Sajuro]

Whoops, double post

Modifié par Sajuro, 21 mai 2010 - 11:48 .

[wolfsite]

Well in most literature involving this concept the only real advantage humanity has is being unpredictable. Aliens tend to be portrayed as Logical, technologically superior, or just overpowering physically. Humans always seem to overcome because they can think outside of those parameters that aliens are confined to. By wither doing something that others would believe crazy or finding a solution to the problem since we are so varied in our thinking that we can see multiple paths to our goal.



Just odd how aliens races are shown as more or less similar viewpoints and working cohesively while humanity is shown as extremely diverse and individualistic which gives an edge in most fiction.