187 réponses à ce sujet

[2pac Shakur]

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Turians are the only power that could undoubtably win a war of attrition, but it would not be a role over in the least. Even before the events of ME1, it was speculated that a full scale First Contact War would have ravaged much of the galaxy with immense harm due to the difference in Turian and Alliance strategies. Since then, the odds have only evened. Such a war is why the Turians don't attack, and why Humanity can aggressively advance it's position and interests: no matter how much the Turians detest whatever Shepard does, starting a war far outweights the cost of accepting it.

asari=pacifists...I don't know
-They declared open war against the krogans because they settled an asari colony
-They fought a war against the rachni for nearly a century
The asari probably won't strike first (unprovoked), you're right. But they have 20 dreadnaughts left (everything else is just speculation) and can always build a new Destiny Ascension...or a fleet of Destiny Ascensions

renegade ending
I think you'll see another war between turians and humans (after all is said and done...ME3 epilogue).
at the moment: They recover from their losses and rebuild their forces
The asari will probably support the turians economicly (= US/GB 1939-41)
We know: "an embargo by the asari would prove disastrous to the Alliance"

What they did in the past is less relevant than what they do in the present: a single lost battle, not even a war, sent the modern Asari from participating in Galactic Defense. What once was isn't always: modern Asari pacifism is no doubt largely inspired by the memories of the Krogan and Rachni wars, in the same way that the same continent that fought World Wars 1 and 2 is now a military pygmy which relies on soft power.

If building a fleet of Destiny Ascensions were feasible, it would have been done. The DA is more akin to the modern US super carriers, if the carriers were big gun battle ships rather than carriers.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What they did in the past is less relevant than what they do in the present: a single lost battle, not even a war, sent the modern Asari from participating in Galactic Defense.

I admit...I have no renegade playthrough (ME2)

not participating in Galactic Defense = no asari ships for the citadel fleet?

[Sand King]

2pac Shakur wrote...

[Dean_the_Young]

Yes. With the loss of the DA, the Asari withdraw from providing ships for the Citadel Fleets that do all the Citadel patrols and peacekeeping, and turn over their share of responsibility to the Turians. They effectively demilitarize even as the Turians militarize even more.



Humans, however, retain a majority share of the fleet composition.

[adam_grif]

Fighter Carriers and conscription won't win a war.

As the saying goes, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics. The industrial capability of all council races is far beyond what the Alliance has. Even if the Alliance can achieve a 5 : 1 kill to loss ratio on comparably sized ships, they will still lose. Horribly. Even not factoring industrial capability in, the existing fleets of the elder races are so far beyond what the Alliance as it's sickening.

Not only do they outnumber them, but due to larger industrial base and economy they can replace losses much faster and for much longer than the Alliance has. They can force the Alliance's hand by jumping the Arcturus Prime relay and forcing a standoff - because if they don't, then Earth, the only significant concentration of humans in the galaxy - is going to be next on the list.

Modifié par adam_grif, 22 mai 2010 - 12:58 .

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. With the loss of the DA, the Asari withdraw from providing ships for the Citadel Fleets that do all the Citadel patrols and peacekeeping, and turn over their share of responsibility to the Turians. They effectively demilitarize even as the Turians militarize even more.

Humans, however, retain a majority share of the fleet composition.

ok, thanks

no ships for the Citadel Fleet makes sense
Udina wants an all-human council...defence is an alliance problem.

Of course, demilitarization makes no sense.
They should elect new leaders (I support Matriach Aethyta...good ideas)

[Dean_the_Young]

Production =/= logistics. There's a reason why the Soviet Union, Germany, and Persia did not do well at sea and power projection despite much greater production than their contemporaries.



Mass Relays are more than high-speed transits: they are choke points of the highest caliber. It's why blockades actually work in the ME universe.



The biggest matter of a war is context: the Alliance and Cerberus are more concerned with an Alien attack akin First Contact, not the other way around. At which point, political costs matter to the Alien species: the Alliance doesn't have to win, it only has to not lose through any means.

[Sajuro]

Send some dreadnoughts through the Charon Relay and when they get close enough to earth, send one into FTL speed to Kamikaze the earth.

[Apocalypse89]

I'd say in 1 on 1, humans would be soundly defeated by any of the 3 council races, and soundly defeat any other major alien civilization.



A more interesting angle is what alliances would form in such a war. Obviously this kind of war won't take place in a vacuum, there would be a reason and other species could take sides. If everyone unites against the Alliance then humanity is SOL, but a more complex and two-sided conflict is possible.



It's also interesting to think how a war with the batarians would go, since they seem to be the most openly hostile to humans, although we don't know enough about their capabilities to really judge them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Send some dreadnoughts through the Charon Relay and when they get close enough to earth, send one into FTL speed to Kamikaze the earth.

This goes both ways: send a swarm of human ships through the Relays, and FTL into the alien planets.

Better yet, don't send them through the relays: just launch some FTL rods where their planets will be in a few thousand years. Let time avenge humanity.

[adam_grif]

Production =/= logistics. There's a reason why the Soviet Union, Germany, and Persia did not do well at sea and power projection despite much greater production than their contemporaries.

It's because their production was specialized and they had all focused on their land forces. Good thing you mentioned the soviet Union, because they crushed the ****s, and the sole reason for their victory was their huge industrial base and ability to take sustained losses.

The biggest matter of a war is context: the Alliance and Cerberus are more concerned with an Alien attack akin First Contact, not the other way around. At which point, political costs matter to the Alien species: the Alliance doesn't have to win, it only has to not lose through any means.

This is a "they are at war" scenario. They are at war. The politics of how they got to war and who attacked first doesn't matter.



The Alliance cannot win, period. Even against the Salarians, the closest in population and military size, they will still get crushed. They will simply concentrate the bulk of their forces on a single attack on the Arcturus prime relay, and then jump to Earth, and then it's game over. Any remaining Alliance forces can be hunted down after the Arcturus fleet has been smashed into zillions of pieces.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Send some dreadnoughts through the Charon Relay and when they get close enough to earth, send one into FTL speed to Kamikaze the earth.

This goes both ways: send a swarm of human ships through the Relays, and FTL into the alien planets.

Better yet, don't send them through the relays: just launch some FTL rods where their planets will be in a few thousand years. Let time avenge humanity.

Or blow up the Charon Relay, I don't know how but just do it. It would cut all humans in the colonies off from their main government, and would finally shut those Terra Firma pricks up

[Dean_the_Young]

adam_grif wrote...

Production =/= logistics. There's a reason why the Soviet Union, Germany, and Persia did not do well at sea and power projection despite much greater production than their contemporaries.

It's because their production was specialized and they had all focused on their land forces. Good thing you mentioned the soviet Union, because they crushed the ****s, and the sole reason for their victory was their huge industrial base and ability to take sustained losses.

Since you invoked Godwin's law rather than the Cold War, it should be noted that they were able to walk to Berlin.

In boots that said 'American' on the bottom.

Russia could not lose. It did not win anywhere close to as soon as it had without massive aid from the British and Americans, who could not walk to Germany.

The biggest matter of a war is context: the Alliance and Cerberus are more concerned with an Alien attack akin First Contact, not the other way around. At which point, political costs matter to the Alien species: the Alliance doesn't have to win, it only has to not lose through any means.

This is a "they are at war" scenario. They are at war. The politics of how they got to war and who attacked first doesn't matter.

Of course they matter. Only in war porn for military nerd jackoff fantasies do they not matter. Context affects politics, and politics dictate war: Egypt won the Suez Crisis despite every tactical loss because politics pulled Britain and France and eventually Israel from military victory to humiliating defeat.

If this is a case of the Alliance collectively goes crazy and attacks someone for no reason, then that's a situation in which defenders have much greater political will to respond in force. If the Salarians botched an intelligence op gone horribly wrong, they'll have a lot less will and backing to take a war to the max. Who is the aggressor? Why? How much is either side willing to pay?  Either storming the Relays is not a simple or easy task (explaining the difficulty of the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions), or it is and the Alliance can respond in kind to do untold devestation.

These are not trivealities. These are the foundations of war. Until you address them, your war porn fantasies are just that: war porn.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Send some dreadnoughts through the Charon Relay and when they get close enough to earth, send one into FTL speed to Kamikaze the earth.

This goes both ways: send a swarm of human ships through the Relays, and FTL into the alien planets.

Better yet, don't send them through the relays: just launch some FTL rods where their planets will be in a few thousand years. Let time avenge humanity.

Or blow up the Charon Relay, I don't know how but just do it. It would cut all humans in the colonies off from their main government, and would finally shut those Terra Firma pricks up

You don't like the opinions of a democratically elected political party. Therefore, your solution is to blow up something that could take dreadnaught fire for monthes without damage, in order to isolate Earth from the universe.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Send some dreadnoughts through the Charon Relay and when they get close enough to earth, send one into FTL speed to Kamikaze the earth.

This goes both ways: send a swarm of human ships through the Relays, and FTL into the alien planets.

Better yet, don't send them through the relays: just launch some FTL rods where their planets will be in a few thousand years. Let time avenge humanity.

Or blow up the Charon Relay, I don't know how but just do it. It would cut all humans in the colonies off from their main government, and would finally shut those Terra Firma pricks up

You don't like the opinions of a democratically elected political party. Therefore, your solution is to blow up something that could take dreadnaught fire for monthes without damage, in order to isolate Earth from the universe.

If it comes down to a war between humans and the rest of the races, then I would support blowing up the Charon Relay. Not just because of Terra Firma, but I think that would be a positive benefit for both parties since they don't like Aliens getting involved in human affairs and isolating Earth would make sure no Aliens would get involved in the Earth's affairs.

[adam_grif]

Since you invoked Godwin's law rather than the Cold War, it should be noted that they were able to walk to Berlin.

And the Germans were able to do the reverse, with several technological advantages, and several years of building up their armed forces, and didn't have their command structure purged by Stalin like the Soviets had. They attacked, then got repulsed, and pushed back into their own country, where they got half of it conquered by the Russians.



This is the ultimate example of logistics overcoming tactical superiority. I didn't talk about the Cold War because we didn't actually get real combat in there, except Guerrilla action in Afghanistan, Korea and Vietnam.



The Salarians can "walk" to Earth. The relay system means they can get there very quickly. They have to deal with First Fleet around Arcturus to get there, and will want to intercept other fleets so they can't retaliate. But they have the numbers to do this. They have ~ 3 : 1 ratio of combat vessels against the Systems alliance (this assumption is based on relative dreadnought numbers, and assuming the rest of the fleet is in proportion to this. Tenuous assumption, but we have no other way to quantify it). They can afford to send fleets twice the size of the human ones at all of the strongpoints they have in the galaxy, then still have the rest left over to defend their own territory.

These are not trivealities. These are the foundations of war. Until you address them, your war porn fantasies are just that: war porn.

That is exactly what this thread is about. They are at war, no explanation. Versus debates assume both sides at optimal capability, both willing to totally destroy the other. This allows us to gauge relative strengths and weaknesses between the two parties.



The alliance going to war with council races has approximately a zero percent chance of ever happening, so war porn is all this could ever be.

[Highdragonslayer]

Aliens would include the zerg swarm, and I don't think anyone but the protoss, and the terran can survive the zerg swarm.

[adam_grif]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Aliens would include the zerg swarm, and I don't think anyone but the protoss, and the terran can survive the zerg swarm.

The zerg swarm would get crushed by the Terrans if only they opened fire when they were further away than 1 meter, and used nukes that had more destructiveness than a hand-grenade.

[Dean_the_Young]

adam_grif wrote...

Since you invoked Godwin's law rather than the Cold War, it should be noted that they were able to walk to Berlin.

And the Germans were able to do the reverse, with several technological advantages, and several years of building up their armed forces, and didn't have their command structure purged by Stalin like the Soviets had. They attacked, then got repulsed, and pushed back into their own country, where they got half of it conquered by the Russians.

You may not have noticed, but there is a slight difference in what logistics means between having winter coats and proper winter gear and getting stuff between two places by means other than walking. Supply is necessary gear, logistics is getting it there. The Germans lacked supply on the Eastern Front more than they lacked logistics (except in so much that supply was lacking for it).

This is the ultimate example of logistics overcoming tactical superiority. I didn't talk about the Cold War because we didn't actually get real combat in there, except Guerrilla action in Afghanistan, Korea and Vietnam.

Your ignorance doesn't really astound me here. The history channel never really did focus on anything but the ****s.

Read up about what a global logistics net entails, and about more wars than WW2 in general, and then we'll come back to war analogies and what not.

That is exactly what this thread is about. They are at war, no explanation. Versus debates assume both sides at optimal capability, both willing to totally destroy the other. This allows us to gauge relative strengths and weaknesses between the two parties.

Your versus debates are petty and juvenile then. I prefer a higher caliber. You can raise the level of the debate, or wallow this low alone. Your choice.

The alliance going to war with council races has approximately a zero percent chance of ever happening, so war porn is all this could ever be.

There are plenty of scenarios in which a war could happen. Bungled STG (the human equivalent to genophage?), links between Cerberus and the Alliance, evidence in Alliance AI research, a change in Turian political elite who believe the Alliance is too dangerous, colony dispute turned hot, Asari pirates with a few too many links to Asari body politics.

If you can't think of reasons, you aren't trying.

[TheSixthghoul]

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-39.pngWhat are Alierns?

Modifié par Sixth Goul, 29 mai 2010 - 03:45 .

[Highdragonslayer]

adam_grif wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Aliens would include the zerg swarm, and I don't think anyone but the protoss, and the terran can survive the zerg swarm.

The zerg swarm would get crushed by the Terrans if only they opened fire when they were further away than 1 meter, and used nukes that had more destructiveness than a hand-grenade.

zerg rush

[adam_grif]

You may not have noticed, but there is a slight difference in what logistics means between having winter coats and proper winter gear and getting stuff between two places by means other than walking. Supply is necessary gear, logistics is getting it there. The Germans lacked supply on the Eastern Front more than they lacked logistics (except in so much that supply was lacking for it).

I'm not talking about having winter coats here. I'm talking about not having enough men, tanks and gear to maintain their attacks, because they wandered too far past supply lines and the further into Russia they got the closer they got to the Russian supply lines. Resulting in being overwhelmed, repulsed, and subsequently invaded.



And I'm not even trying to use this as an analogy for Salarians vs Alliance, because the situations are totally different. I'm just saying that being able to bring more to bare on your enemies is what is going to get the Alliance crushed, completely and totally. Relays mean that they can focus their forces extremely well, they have a nearly flawless logistical network that runs straight into the heart of the Alliance, and the FTL drives to get anywhere in Alliance space in less than a day.

Your ignorance doesn't really astound me here. The history channel never really did focus on anything but the ****s.

I live in Australia and don't have anything but basic TV channels, so no history channel for me. Although I did once catch a programme they had on AK47 vs M16, which was fun.

Your versus debates are petty and juvenile then. I prefer a higher caliber. You can raise the level of the debate, or wallow this low alone. Your choice.

Very well, I accept your surrender.

Bungled STG (the human equivalent to genophage?)

Can't be a genophage, human fertility rates comparable to other council races. If you mean an ethnically targeted bioweapon that they had on standby, this would create political fallout, but isn't enough to get the Alliance to declare war, because they have no reasonable chance of winning an offensive war.

links between Cerberus and the Alliance,

Which wouldn't result in war, it would result in them being shunned by the galactic community, and maybe not even that.

evidence in Alliance AI research

You mean like how they declared war on the Quarians? Oh wait.

a change in Turian political elite who believe the Alliance is too dangerous

While the Asari and Salarians stand there and twiddle their thumbs? They intervened to stop the last offensive war between the two, and now the Turians don't even have the "they were violating our laws and endangering the galaxy!!" thing to go on anymore.

Asari pirates with a few too many links to Asari body politics.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but:



Nobody will start a war against a vastly superior military.

If you can't think of reasons, you aren't trying

The only reasons you gave are either totally implausible, or extremely unlikely. It's not that it's impossible for a war to happen, but the chances of it happening are near-zero.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]adam_grif wrote...

[quote]You may not have noticed, but there is a slight difference in what logistics means between having winter coats and proper winter gear and getting stuff between two places by means other than walking. Supply is necessary gear, logistics is getting it there. The Germans lacked supply on the Eastern Front more than they lacked logistics (except in so much that supply was lacking for it).[/quote]

I'm not talking about having winter coats here. I'm talking about not having enough men, tanks and gear to maintain their attacks, because they wandered too far past supply lines and the further into Russia they got the closer they got to the Russian supply lines. Resulting in being overwhelmed, repulsed, and subsequently invaded.[/quote]That's not logistical problems, that's a shortage of supplies and personel, of an overextended front. That's an argument for not attacking someone over double your size, not a critique on logistical support ability.

[quote]And I'm not even trying to use this as an analogy for Salarians vs Alliance, because the situations are totally different. I'm just saying that being able to bring more to bare on your enemies is what is going to get the Alliance crushed, completely and totally. Relays mean that they can focus their forces extremely well, they have a nearly flawless logistical network that runs straight into the heart of the Alliance, and the FTL drives to get anywhere in Alliance space in less than a day. [/quote]Except you have been arguing just that.

Logistics is the ability to get something from point a to point b. When it comes to water, that means ships. When it comes to space, that means space ships. Production alone does not equal either: Persia was far larger, more populace, and had more resources than Greece, but decisively lost the naval wars there. Germany had well surpassed the British and the French in production in WW1, but the German Navy was largely irrelevant. The Soviet Union (Cold War) had higher production than the US, but was never able to project power far from it's borders while the US nearly owned the seas.

The Alliance is built on mobility in a way that no other power is. The Alliance does have logistics, and does have the lift to move faster than most other powers.

[quote]
[quote]Your versus debates are petty and juvenile then. I prefer a higher caliber. You can raise the level of the debate, or wallow this low alone. Your choice.[/quote]

Very well, I accept your surrender.[/quote]It's a curious mind which takes an invitation to raise the level of debate as a surrender.

[quote]
[quote]Bungled STG (the human equivalent to genophage?)[/quote]

Can't be a genophage, human fertility rates comparable to other council races. If you mean an ethnically targeted bioweapon that they had on standby, this would create political fallout, but isn't enough to get the Alliance to declare war, because they have no reasonable chance of winning an offensive war.[/quote]An equivalent to the genophage does not have to have the same effect as the genophage.

The Alliance is, for better or worse, a democracy. When democracies are attacked, the constituents demand blood. A retaliatory strike following an accident is well within the realm of possiblity, and the rise of Terra Firma as well.
[quote]
[quote]links between Cerberus and the Alliance,[/quote]

Which wouldn't result in war, it would result in them being shunned by the galactic community, and maybe not even that.[/quote]If hardliner factions of theTurians move to shut something down on grounds of it being related to Cerberus, that doesn't mean the Alliance will stand aside. The same for if the Council sends in a Spectre. The tinderwood for a conflict is there.
[quote]
[quote]evidence in Alliance AI research[/quote]

You mean like how they declared war on the Quarians? Oh wait.[/quote]You mean when they stood aside for genocide.

The last time the Alliance was in any way implicated with AI research, the Council nearly muzzled it and then sent a Spectre to deal with the problem. Spectres are only a few steps short of open conflict.
[quote]
[quote]a change in Turian political elite who believe the Alliance is too dangerous[/quote]

While the Asari and Salarians stand there and twiddle their thumbs? They intervened to stop the last offensive war between the two, and now the Turians don't even have the "they were violating our laws and endangering the galaxy!!" thing to go on anymore. [/quote]Evaluations change, as any observer knows. The Turians could freely step aside during first contact because the Humans weren't percerived to be a real threat. As time goes on, Humanity grows more and more of one: infact, there are rumors that the Council is setting up Humanity to be it's counter to the Turians, much as the Turians countered the Krogan and the Krogan countered the Rachni.

Pre-emptive logic is most powerful just bejore the moment of no return. Striking when Humans are certainly weaker, rather than letting them mature into an actual threat, is logical.
[quote]
[quote]Asari pirates with a few too many links to Asari body politics.[/quote]

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but:

Nobody will start a war against a vastly superior military.[/quote]Then you are ignorant, because history is replete with examples of such.  A few have occured in this decade alone.

History is also littered with the successes of smaller nations against
bigger nations. It takes even less effort to find examples of those.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 mai 2010 - 03:22 .

[adam_grif]

[quote]That's not logistical problems, that's a shortage of supplies and personel, of an overextended front. That's an argument for not attacking someone over double your size, not a critique on logistical support ability.

[/quote]



No, it's a logistics problem because they had the gear and the people, they just didn't have it where they needed it.



[quote]Logistics is the ability to get something from point a to point b. When it comes to water, that means ships. When it comes to space, that means space ships. Production alone does not equal either: Persia was far larger, more populace, and had more resources than Greece, but decisively lost the naval wars there.[/quote]



Blah blah blah. All council races have all of these advantages over the Alliance, in addition to numerically (vastly) superior and technologically comparable forces. Nothing you've been saying has changed any of this.



[quote]The Alliance is built on mobility in a way that no other power is. The Alliance does have logistics, and does have the lift to move faster than most other powers.[/quote]



Their defensive doctrine is based on small garrisons with rapid response forces. How does this preclude them getting ****ing stomped to death in a fight when they force you to stand and fight or lose your homeworld?



[quote]The Alliance is, for better or worse, a democracy. When democracies are attacked, the constituents demand blood. A retaliatory strike following an accident is well within the realm of possiblity, and the rise of Terra Firma as well.[/quote]



And when was the last time a democracy waged an offensive war against a significantly larger, more powerful and more influential nation? For what amounts to nothing really, since nuclear weapons would kill you faster and more effectively than some crappy bioweapon will?



[quote]Pre-emptive logic is most powerful just bejore the moment of no return. Striking when Humans are certainly weaker, rather than letting them mature into an actual threat, is logical.[/quote]



You're essentially proposing the exact same "they spaz out and attack without a good reason" thing that you were denouncing a few posts ago. This is not logical, since going rogue and attacking smaller races on the off chance that they might be a threat in the future is going to create a political ****storm, have them denounced by the other council races, and possibly spark a war with the Asari/Salarians.



This is not a plausible scenario.



[quote]If hardliner factions of theTurians move to shut something down on grounds of it being related to Cerberus, that doesn't mean the Alliance will stand aside. The same for if the Council sends in a Spectre. The tinderwood for a conflict is there.[quote]



I don't even know what you're trying to say here. The Alliance has some tenuous connections to a terrorist group who have done relatively minor things (on a galactic scale, killing thousands, mostly humans, is jack ****. If this was enough to declare war on humans, the Batarians would have been invaded hundreds of years ago), and so they wage a war against them, instead of just demanding that it be shut down and the group be hunted down?



[quote]

You mean when they stood aside for genocide.[/quote]



Right, but they didn't declare war on them. In keeping with the idea that they would simply shun the humans for doing it.





[quote]The last time the Alliance was in any way implicated with AI research, the Council nearly muzzled it and then sent a Spectre to deal with the problem. Spectres are only a few steps short of open conflict.[/quote]



Are you talking about the Luna rogue VI thing?



Regardless, Spectres are sent specifically to avoid open conflict, trying to resolve the situation in order to preserve galactic stability and peace. It's evidence that they DON'T want a conflict, not that they're spoiling for a fight.



[quote]A few have occured in this decade alone.

[/quote]



Examples?