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Laptops vs. real game systems - look out for changes


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#1
Gorath Alpha

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Created 12 months ago

              The laptop usability situation only got worse, for YEARS

The original discussion I'd started with predated the influence of the "Netbook" class of computing devices diluting the gaming quality of the laptop / notebook offerings in the marketplace.  The upper range of Netbooks was already close to an overlap in performance with the low-price mobile PCs, when the last major rewrite of this article was fresh, and many manufacturers were choosing to keep on using older, lower-priced chipsets in their laptops to keep their laptops' costs down.

Now, LOOK OUT FOR THE FUSION APUs coming soon

(More about those at the end of where the article had ended when I rewrote it.)

Netbooks' video devices have heretofore all strictly been onboard chips, and five or six months ago, almost all were using the outdated IGPs that Intel first offered about four years ago.   Too many current laptops with Intel chipsets are still using the same old-model IGPs that those netbooks do, or cost reasons.  Within the last three years, Intel had finally started to include most of the features and functions that ATI and nVIDIA had been including in IGPs for the past 8-10 years.   Not that any of the IGPs from any of the three have truly been game-capable, just that it was possible to at least "preview" what a game might look like on such a chip, if it was from AMD or nVIDIA.

The influence of $200-300 Netbooks extends also to causing a reduction in the numbers of laptops that would have included an actual, discrete, video card instead of an onboard video chip, because that adds quite a bit to the cost of a laptop, and the average cost of those offered has been lowered generally.  There are fewer laptops available for purchase that have real video cards in them. The top end of the smaller-sized laptops, the "notebook" models, are the ones being bypassed by the buyers of various "tablet" devices similar to the Apple iPad product.

Cost-cutting has also affected the cooling capacity of those laptops that really do have video cards, but now many more of them get hot too quickly because the heat sinks are too small, and the cooling fans are too ineffectual.  Admittedly, there had already been a tendency on the part of laptop designers to shortchange the heat sink hardware, because it adds to the weight of the PC, and laptop designers are devoted to the gods of light weight and long battery life, both being elements heavily impacted by high performance add-on video cards.

The engineers at nVIDIA have been considering the Netbook and Smartphone devices as a better place for them to compete in than the general PC market, where AMD has a serious advantage in being able to integrate GPUs inside of the designs of their coming "Fusion" line of CPUs.  Their influence, if they earn a sizable share of the video in those markets, can only be good.  Almost anything other than what Intel is doing in video nearly has to be better. 

That isn't to say that Intel has been going backward graphically, but their low standard has been legendary, and any improvement at all is noticed.  Over the past year, many of their i3 / i5 video chip systems have been able to perform almost as well as the nVIDIA onboard graphics currently available, but right at this moment, the Geforce Mobile generation of Fermi GPUs is setting some amazing standards (although demanding better cooling than ever before).

AMD will soon be releasing Mobile versions of their "Fusion" series (Mid-May 2011), which should be extremely helpful to improving the laptop standards.  Intel has a new processor family they call "Sandy Bridge" that was pushed out the door before it was fully cooked, trying to upstage AMD, then they had to have a callback, because they were faulty.  Instead of merely being a separate video chip riding inside the CPU package, it will be at least basically integrated into their CPU, sharing the cache.  It promises to be as fast as the current AMD onboard chip, the HD 4200, but AMD was supposed to have already have replaced that one before then (they haven't). 
 
If all laptop makers adhered to the very same performance standards for add-on video, game developers would be more inclined to consider offering tech support to the laptop PCs,  but each designer seems to have his (or her) own standards for what level of performance degradation he / she will will apply in the name of battery life or total weight.  Compared to the ATI and nVIDIA reference designs, too few even follow the (typically 10 % reduction in performance compared to the matching desktop card version) recommended specifications.  The end result is variations of 10% more performance loss, to as much as a total of 30% dilution.
   
The potential improvements remain just potential.  Intel's laptop chipsets are cheap, familiar, and the average laptop buyer really doesn't care to pay extra for good video, so at least 95% of them have nothing better than an Intel video chip in them, making that 95% segment undesireable choices for game playing.

HERE is the Latest News about Fusion and Mobile Computing.

It is now May, 2011, and the new mobile Fusion APUs (were supposed to already be shipping) to Netbook, Notebook, and Laptop manufacturers, with the PCs using them expected a couple of months ago.  The NetBook and NetTop Fusion APUs are the only ones in production so far.

Why is this pertinent here?  Fusion is going to be available for standard laptops at a much smaller cost than discrete GPUs plus a CPU, and no one else is going to have anything for laptops that competes.  Private ownership of PCs is concentrated in laptops, not desktops.  Initially, the business grade, like an HD 5450, will probably be priced at almost what similar AMD processors without graphics have cost.  That will really put a dent, potentially, in nVIDIA's sales of chipsets for AMD processors, and for cheap discrete cards like the G.205, G.210, and G.410 Geforces.

Although pricing isn't being discussed yet, the presumption is that the difference between an APU with business graphics, and one with the equivilant of the HD 5570 graphics integrated will be relatively small compared to a card, probably less than $10 to the OEMs, translating to maybe $15 retail (my guess there).

THOSE APUs will run games such as DAO without any separate GPU card, which is why it's significant to this article.


Gorath
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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 05 mai 2011 - 05:11 .


#2
Nukenin

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First, is this just not "Laptops generally make poor game platforms" (posted by you two months ago in the ME2 PC Tech Support forum)?  Albeit with awkward line lengths due to (I suspect) a copy/paste hatchet job?

Second, some of the quoted posts with dates preserved (oversight on your part?) are from November 2006.  That's positively ancient!  They're talking about the Radeon Express 200M!  Yikes!

Good gods man!  What kind of bizarro thread necromancy is this?

For the record, I have an inexpensive recent (well, I got it the week before DA:O released, so I guess ancient now) laptop that plays DA:O and ME2 just fine.

#3
adrichardson

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You have to bear in mind that laptop gaming is a very niche market. Go north of £750, and you'll get something that'll handle most games reasonably well.



Depends how much you're on the move. If you travel a lot and don't want to stop gaming, it's money well spent. If your laptop never leaves the house, you'll get better value for money and a better experience out of a desktop, and if you're pushed for space you'd be amazed at what you can do with a decent SFF case.

#4
Gorath Alpha

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Neither Global nor TMSC managed to beat 40 nm when they intended to.  All of AMD's CPUs, GPUs, and these new APUs were all designed for 32 nm wafers.  When both foundries' failures were certain, all of those designs went back to the drawing board, and six months of work had to be totally redone, back to the 40 nm basis from last year and the year before. 

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 05 mai 2011 - 05:16 .


#5
Gorath Alpha

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AMD never announced when all o the redesigning process was going to be complete.  Their CPUs were easier to modify, and that has been done, apparently, before much of anything else, other than Netbook APUs.  The rest of the APUs are coming out about May-June.  I don't know when the newest CPUs will be here.

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 05 mai 2011 - 05:20 .


#6
Gorath Alpha

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When the "i" series of Intel C2Ds began to appear, they had an upgraded version of the very latest chipset chip riding along piggyback inside the processor's packaging, where it shared some of the large RAM cache, and for the first time in all history, was competitive in raw speed with Chipset chips from real graphics engineers at AMD and nVIDIA.  That does not mean the i-CPUs can be used for gaming without truly HUGE compromises, however, as is also true of the AMD and nVIDIA Chipset video chips.

With Sandy Bridge, most of the improvement has gone into the actual CPU side, where some 10-20% of added efficiency has been achieved.  However, instead of merely being a separate device riding along, the video support in Sandy Bridge is supposed to have been fully intgrated into CPU functioning, giving it new advantages it didn't have while piggy-backing.

Again, this does *NOT* mean it is a game-capable option, unless the game settings are seriously crippled to allow it to be used.  According Anand Tech's tests, it is as fast for some things as the Radeon HD 4200 / 4250 pair of Chipset video chips that formerly held the top rank among the onboard video crowd, and even matches AMD's least capable HD 5n00 real card (a poor card for certain), the 5450.

The biggest news out of CES for game players is that Microsoft will support ARM, and that nVIDIA is building its own ARM processor, so it won't be left behind by AMD's Fusion (which blows past Sandy Bridge, with better battery life, less waste heat, and better video).

Gorath

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 05 mai 2011 - 05:21 .


#7
Gorath Alpha

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Neither nVIDIA's ARM developments, nor the full-blown APUs for gaming laptops are on the retailers' shelves now. AMD's newest for that purpose may appear before the end of May. Right now, the average laptop is STILL way behind where the average laptop was sitting three years ago, compared to the average desktop, three years ago.

#8
Gorath Alpha

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Laptops are still losing ground, on average, compared to where they were before the NetBooks and Tablets began stealing sales away from them, & resulted in an overall lowered quality along with generally lowered prices, in order to avoid the loss of sales to the less-capable lower priced devices.

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 23 mai 2011 - 03:31 .


#9
Gorath Alpha

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There are two different articles at Daily Tech pertaining to matters covered in this informational reference. One is about the ARM developments, which are quite interesting, but IMO, still far from being a force in the "PC as a computer" marketplace. This is the article I found most hopeful:

www.dailytech.com/AMD+Fusion+Emerges+as+Serious+Threat+to+Intel+in+the+Notebook+MidMarket/article21763.htm

The link's URL is somewhat hard to read.  They are predicting a major success in what they refer to as a Notebook "MidMarket" segment.   Just click on it; it's perfectly safe. 

There's been an update at Daily Tech, here's the new article:

www.dailytech.com/AMD+Ships+Llano+ASeries+Looks+to+Punish+Intel+on+the+Budget+End/article21898.htm

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 14 juin 2011 - 05:38 .


#10
Gorath Alpha

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Intel's position, with regard to game playing graphics chip performance, remains very poor. The "Trinity" series of Fusion APUs may be here as soon as next fall, so in the meanwhile, the average mobile / portable computing device has a purely awful excuse for a video chip (AMD's Brazos and Llano devices do have a sizable market presence, so the overall average is better for the first time in many years).

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 21 juin 2011 - 10:11 .