206 réponses à ce sujet

[wonder_mom44]

Pubknight wrote...

In DAO I was drawn in to the story, and felt connected to the characters.
I could explore the conversation trees with them when I wished.
With Awakenings, I feel no connection whatsoever to the characters, and thus by extension, the story.
Awakenings, for all intents and purposes, is not an expansion of DAO... it really is a stand alone game.
And one that I don't particularly care for.

I couldn't agree more. It doesn't even feel like part of the same story.  There was no real interaction even with Ogren.  I like the DAO version of "Camp Talk" which you could do even outside of camp. The background conversations while walking along were interesting and I would have loved to make a couple of comments to the others concerning some of those conversations. But, alas, we can't fix Awakenings, but we could hope that the next full expansion will be better.

[Brockololly]

I'm all for continually trying to improve the dialogue system but at least in Awakening, I fail to see how interacting with a flying boat or clicking on a rock is supposed to be more natural than clicking on a character to start a conversation. Or how clicking on a bulletin board triggers a conversation about a rash Oghren has.

I get what they were trying to do with Awakening, but I just feel like its implementation was sorely lacking when compared to Origins' system. I understand the desire to cut down on the laundry list and making the rounds at camp, but at least with Awakening, all you end up with is going on a scavenger hunt across huge maps instead of just being able to click on the characters all in one place at camp.

Modifié par Brockololly, 21 mai 2010 - 05:18 .

[Catcher]

Zanderat wrote...

Agreed.  I didn't say that there wasn't room for improvement.  I just find David G.'s attitude rather condensending.  It's as if they have no idea why people like their game.

      The only one I've seen here that's been elitest and condenscending has been you. ( "Konsole Kiddies"  replying to one posters actual like of the new system as "scary", etc)  Here's a newsflash: YOU aren't the only customer for Bioware games nor do you represent some sort of majority. In fact, if we lumped everyone on that long thread together as an opponent to any form of the Awakening conversation model, it still wouldn't make up .0001% of the entire sold base for DA: O. Ironic thought: the Poster who started that thread LOVED the Awakening conversation system. Why don't you try chanelling all that misplaced entitlement into actually presenting ideas that would improve the conversation system going foward. I'll even give you an example since I'm not sure you have ever tried to actually think that way.


     DAO has several "random" encounters while travelling on the World Map. What if instead of a combat problem, a "random" encounter instead triggered on of these object-driven conversations? The basic areas already exist (indeed, just a few areas with some placeables to block/unblock pathways are reused). The scene would be perfectly controlable for the Developers. The change in action would cue the Player so there's none of the 'Hunt the Tree' problem. It extends the number of possible "random" encounters so you don't wind up with the 'Infinite Tegerin' issue. It's not perfect (part of what David is saying is that nothing is), but it would possibly be an improvement for many people over either current system.

[Zanderat]

Catcher wrote...

Zanderat wrote...

Agreed.  I didn't say that there wasn't room for improvement.  I just find David G.'s attitude rather condensending.  It's as if they have no idea why people like their game.

      The only one I've seen here that's been elitest and condenscending has been you. ( "Konsole Kiddies"  replying to one posters actual like of the new system as "scary", etc)  Here's a newsflash: YOU aren't the only customer for Bioware games nor do you represent some sort of majority. In fact, if we lumped everyone on that long thread together as an opponent to any form of the Awakening conversation model, it still wouldn't make up .0001% of the entire sold base for DA: O. Ironic thought: the Poster who started that thread LOVED the Awakening conversation system. Why don't you try chanelling all that misplaced entitlement into actually presenting ideas that would improve the conversation system going foward. I'll even give you an example since I'm not sure you have ever tried to actually think that way.


     DAO has several "random" encounters while travelling on the World Map. What if instead of a combat problem, a "random" encounter instead triggered on of these object-driven conversations? The basic areas already exist (indeed, just a few areas with some placeables to block/unblock pathways are reused). The scene would be perfectly controlable for the Developers. The change in action would cue the Player so there's none of the 'Hunt the Tree' problem. It extends the number of possible "random" encounters so you don't wind up with the 'Infinite Tegerin' issue. It's not perfect (part of what David is saying is that nothing is), but it would possibly be an improvement for many people over either current system.

I don't apologize for anything.  If you don't believe or think that this game was mainstreamed for the masses, then you are sadly mistaken.  I never said that there wasn't room for improvement.  But do you really think that clicking on a tree is more intuitive than, say, clicking on an NPC to initiate dialogue?  And I don't apologize for proclaiming that the camp conversations are what made the game for me.

What I DID say was that David G.'s stubborn insistence that the Awakening system is superior is arrogant and blatantly disrespectful of the wishes of his payng customers.  At least, he could be respectful in his disagreement.

Modifié par Zanderat, 21 mai 2010 - 06:29 .

[Brockololly]

Catcher wrote...
     DAO has several "random" encounters while travelling on the World Map. What if instead of a combat problem, a "random" encounter instead triggered on of these object-driven conversations? The basic areas already exist (indeed, just a few areas with some placeables to block/unblock pathways are reused). The scene would be perfectly controlable for the Developers. The change in action would cue the Player so there's none of the 'Hunt the Tree' problem. It extends the number of possible "random" encounters so you don't wind up with the 'Infinite Tegerin' issue. It's not perfect (part of what David is saying is that nothing is), but it would possibly be an improvement for many people over either current system.

That sounds like a really good idea personally- it would hopefully limit my frustration with seeing Old Tegrin for the billionth time too. The only thing with those would have to be that they don't make the random encounters too random or else you'll end up with people possibly stuck not being able to get a certain dialogue with a companion.

I'm not opposed to the whole Awakening system, its just that I really missed the ability to start conversations and question your companions. Call it a laundry list or whatever, but being able to just click on a companion and chat was one of the things that made Origins stand out from other RPGs, IMO.

[hexaligned]

Heh, you might try giving out some respect yourself if you expect any in return. Regardless, your opinion matters as much as the people who liked the new system better, which is to say, not at all. Feel free to give it here all day long if you want, I just find it amusing you seem to think his job requires that he listen to you.

[Zanderat]

relhart wrote...

 I just find it amusing you seem to think his job requires that he listen to you.

Remind me not to shop at your store.

[MistySun]

Well, i thank for David Gaider for responding and giving some hope that not all is lost.

I just can't help it if i fell in love with DAO and want more of the same...dialogue that is

[Fangirl17]

I perfered the system in Origins but I see what they were trying to do. I read Mr.Gaider's quotes that someone posted and I like his ideas. I think ,as others have said,that they are going to go for a combination of the two systems.

EDIT:Curse you grammar!

Modifié par Fangirl17, 21 mai 2010 - 07:32 .

[Sethronu]

While the conversation system in Awakenings didn't seem nearly as polished as it was in DA:O, you have to remember that it's something entirely different as opposed to a result of 10+ years of refinement. The writers wanted to try something new and in my opinion, they didn't do all that bad with it - stuff needs to be worked on of course, and the whole 'combining Awakenings & DA:O conversation systems' seems like the way to go for me at least, but personally I like that they're not afraid to experiment and try out different things. I don't see many people saying the conversations in Baldur's Gate games were weak - and you couldn't initiate dialogue with your companions there either, could you?

As for the 'customers' who insist Mr. Gaider to be 'respectful' to them... "Respect is a funny thing. Many people think they deserve it. But in fact, respect is earned."

[Zy-El]

Actually, the Origins conversation system was not perfect. I liked it where the companions step in and initiate the conversation when it is in their best interests to do so. Case in point - Leliana will confront me if she sees me canoodling with Zevran or Alistair after I've already rolled her. Or Sten questioning my choice of quests - "why are we going North when the AD is to the south?"



It would be a surprise to get dialogue unprompted. Morrigan: "Why haven't you killed Flemeth yet? You took time to find that silly Urn and kill a high dragon but not a Witch of the Wilds?"

Shale: "That merchant was selling crystals. Why don't you buy one for me to try on?"

Dog (spots a runaway Nug): Woof!! Woof!! (excited)

Leliana: "And where do you think you're going?" (when PC tries to talk to Sanga at the Pearl)

[JamieCOTC]

I expect the next system will be a combination of the two, which is fine by me. IF they replace the original system w/ the Awakening system I will certainly buy a copy ... just so I can burn it.

[Catcher]

Zanderat wrote...
I don't apologize for anything.  If you don't believe or think that this game was mainstreamed for the masses, then you are sadly mistaken.  I never said that there wasn't room for improvement.  But do you really think that clicking on a tree is more intuitive than, say, clicking on an NPC to initiate dialogue?  And I don't apologize for proclaiming that the camp conversations are what made the game for me.

    Thanks for proving that you are the one being elitest and condescending.  BTW, do you have any quotes from david that he's elminating camp conversations? Or any actual facts to refute anything I've said? Arguementation works far better with Assertion, Fact Fact, Fact, Conclusion instead of Assertion, Assertion, Assertion.    Here's an example for your perusal...

What I DID say was that David G.'s stubborn insistence that the Awakening system is superior is arrogant and blatantly disrespectful of the wishes of his payng customers.  At least, he could be respectful in his disagreement.

     From your post.

Assertion: David Gaider has shown no insistence, stubborn or otherwise, that the Awakenings conversation system is superior nor has he been disrespectful of posters (who we'll assume are, indeed, all paying customers).

Fact:

The approval system itself needs some looking at, but insofar as the dialogues in Awakening go, consider it a work in progress.

Fact:

Feel free to offer suggestions if you have them, but keep in mind what I'm trying to avoid. Just because someone may have liked the system despite its flaws doesn't mean it didn't have them, or that it couldn't be improved on -- and that goes for the new system as well as the old.

Fact:

If your opinion is you'd like to do it anyway, and that your preference is to be able to explore the thoughts and feelings of your party members whenever you'd like, that's fine. Feel free to say so. From a developer perspective, I'm simply going to look at it from different angles.

  (Note: Angles plural not angle singular)

Fact:

That's an interesting idea, though if you were going to ask Alistair about the Templars at the beginning of the Mage Tower segment it would still require you to click on him to see if he had anything relevant to say -- and if he did, would you not be checking every party member at every major location just in case?
Mind you, if Alistair made some comment that amounted to "Huh, I know a lot about Templars" when you entered the area... that might provide a good cue that eliminated the need for for dialogue-trolling, as it were. Though really it's the difference between clicking on an ambient object to start a conversation and clicking on the party member themselves. But it seems that's a real sticking point for some people. I'm not convinced it's a big issue, but it's something to consider.

(Note: Actually considering a Fan suggestion. Stubborn man that Gaider!)

Fact:

There's food for thought, here. I'll take it into account when I decide how to proceed in the future, so thank you for those who offered their insight. I do, of course, have to add a grain of salt that this is feedback from the bunch that are *most* likely to be biased in favor of the Origins system by virtue of their presence here... but that's not a bad thing at all. Just realize it's one part of what we need to take into account.
So thank you

(Note: Everyone who says thank you to customers is obviously condescending.)

Fact:

Very interesting thoughts. Some of the solutions you suggest have technical barriers that would prevent them, while others might be problematic due to more practical limitations (word budget, for instance -- yes, there is a budget for that) but on the whole very well spoken.

(Note: The nerve of the man! Complementing a different viewpoint instead of ridiculing it!)

Fact:

Is what we tried in Awakening an effective answer to this? In some ways yes and in some ways no. It doesn't offer the clearest picture primarily because the amount of content to impart in an expansion of this size is not all that great, compared to the expectations of some, but I would say my impression taken from those who didn't like how it was presented was a feeling that they lacked agency. Why they feel that way and why they say they feel that way don't always seem to jibe, in my view, but I guess that comes with the territory.
Even so, there are some ways this could be ameliorated (or I think so, anyhow) and some of the things you suggest certainly have merit. Thanks for offering your thoughts.

Note: He's doing a bad job making Awakenings the next coming of RPG Godhood. Oh, and he complemented a different viewpoint agin. Fiend!)

Fact:

Zanderat thinks a battle of wits is a form of unarmed combat

(Note: OK, I made that one up, but the rest you can find in the big, long thread that started this sillieness.)

Conclusion: David Gaider is remarkably even-handed in his treatment of the Origins Conversation system and its weaknesses, the Awakenings system and its weaknesses, and the ideas and thoughts of many other posters. Zanderat is a clod who doesn't need to apologize for his preferences, but does need to apologize to David for unsubstantiated personal attacks or produce some sort of evidence of his Assertions, forthwith.
 

[dan107]

I actually like the Awakening style conversation system. It's much more realistic to have NPCs comment about events and people in the world, as opposed to playing twenty irrelevant questions back at camp. Ideally I'd like to have them comment and go into depth on the various decisions and situations that are meaningful to me as a player, rather than random trees and such, but this is a step in the right direction IMO.

[taine]

Zanderat wrote...

relhart wrote...

 I just find it amusing you seem to think his job requires that he listen to you.

Remind me not to shop at your store.

Since you seem to know so much about good business practices, then you will doubtless realize that it costs Bioware quite a bit of money to add in tons of dialogue due to the fact that they must record every single line. This was one of the main factors leading to Awakening's revamped conversation system, not Bioware's supposed contempt for customers such as yourself. I also challenge you to find a single instance of David Gaider being "arrogant" or even just saying that the new system is superior as you assert. 

If you're going to get all in a huff about something, at least get your facts straight.

[Kail Ashton]

I'm either or on it, both worked for me & both had their faults (the "laundry list" as ninja gaider puts it from origins drags badly on multi replays & only 4 or so clicky spots for companions in awakening is abit slim)

[k2_1971]

Well so far I am enjoying Awakening - Oghren is a riot! Yeah there are some differences to the conversation system, but it's not something that personally concerns me. It's mostly the same as DA:O really.



I'm having fun with it so far... f*ck what the rest of ya think

[Catcher]

Magnum Opus wrote...

I may just have to print this off and frame it.

Well played, sir.

(Though for the record, I'm still one of those utterly stuck on third-party object initiating dialogue, as mentioned in GaiderFact #4 . Can't see why a mouse click on a crate should open the chest immediately to the left of it instead.  Similarly, can't see why a mouse click on a beer keg should initiate dialogue with party members... although in this case I suspect a "fidget animation" might serve the trick: If my mouse click initiated an action of my avatar topping off a tankard and tipping it back, at which point Oghren then wobbles over in his drunken stupor and seemingly initiates dialogue on his own ... that makes sense to me. My clicking on the keg had my character doing something with the keg).

Anyway... good post, as usual.

      Thank you, my friend, but you should PM me your Snail Mail address instead and I'll get you some of my girls' artwork. It's prettier than mine and easier to explain to the random passerby.


     Anywho, on to more important matters. I think the problem for many people is understanding what David's difficulty with the Origins system is. It all comes down to Context. When you are first "getting to know" your Companions in Camp, there really is no Context so your Companions have to establish it for you. That leads to lines and lines of exposition which the writers do as well to hide within characterization as it is, but its still exposition. Funny side note: Both Allistair and Morrigan complain how lame it is to come right out and ask them personal questions, then proceed to play right along anyway.   Adding Context to the conversations, whether it's an Event, an Object, a Location, whatever, gives the writer much more leeway to use the lines for real Character development. That along with better writer control over pacing, is what I think David is driving at (as free as I am with his words, I'm reluctant to put words in his mouth ).

    One thing that can make the object-driven portion of the DAA model work better, I believe, is a more carefully considered selection of objects in the field. For example, take Allistair's section about his Templar training. If part of that convo triggered when you checked the body of the Dead Templar at the road entrance to Lothering with a little bit of Context provided by Allistair, then you would never have noticed it as a 'conversation object' and its a very obvious object to click. Further, getting that conversation piece could lead to a Camp Talk with Allistair that starts by referencing that Context like Sten's "I'd like to ask you about something you mentioned" convo initiation line. Poster nazo also has a good idea on a topic that's slipped down to Page 2. It really deserves a look.

    One other point to mention, I think a fair number of people associate the amount of dialogue in Awakenings with the conversation system in Awakenings. The (sad) fact is: even with the Origins system there would have been the same amount of dialogue in Awakenings. As I recall, word budgets on Projects are set well in advance and are, like most budgets, not likely to change much. Further, other somewhat unpopular choices that were made with respect to Awakenings (the presence or absence of certain DAO Characters, the method of dealing with previous choices, most of the common bugs, etc.) have nothing to do with the conversation system, but there's some 'guilt by association' going on as well. 

[CherryColaLola]

scyphozoa wrote...

I never want to have to farm dialogue. Dialogue should always be in abundance so I don't feel like its missing and dialogue should always be organic and contextually appropriate. Yes, cake and eat it too please.

edit to clarify - "contextually appropriate" - i want squadmates to acknowledge my current place in the story arc, our location in the world and my personal behavior (moral scale).

^^^

2nded

[David Gaider]

Zanderat wrote...
I don't care for your dismissive eltiist attitude.  Maybe you should LISTEN and acknowledge what your CUSTOMERS are saying.

And I don't care for your dismissive, elitist attitude.

I have listened to feedback on this topic at length, and responded to much of it. If I'm not willing to leap onto every single thread where someone takes what I've said and misinterprets it in the worst possible light (or simply assumes the worst), it's because my time comes in limited amounts-- not to mention my patience.

So you can either read what I've said (which Catcher has kindly posted) and offer your own feedback with the perspective that it is an opinion of one customer out of many, many customers-- one who happens to have the opportunity to offer their opinion in a place where we might see it-- or you can toss aside perspective and rant at whatever grievance you perceive, and be listened to about as much as you might to someone speaking to you in a similar fashion in real life.

Your choice.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 mai 2010 - 09:52 .

[Kail Ashton]

David Gaider wrote...

Zanderat wrote...
I don't care for your dismissive eltiist attitude.  Maybe you should LISTEN and acknowledge what your CUSTOMERS are saying.

And I don't care for your dismissive, elitist attitude.

I have listened to feedback on this topic at length, and responded to much of it. If I'm not willing to leap onto every single thread where someone takes what I've said and misinterprets it in the worst possible light (or simply assumes the worst), it's because my time comes in limited amounts-- not to mention my patience.

So you can either read what I've said (which Catcher has kindly posted) and offer your own feedback with the perspective that it is an opinion of one customer out of many, many customers-- one who happens to have the opportunity to offer their opinion in a place where we might see it-- or you can toss aside perspective and rant at whatever grievance you perceive, and be listened to about as much as you might to someone speaking to you in a similar fashion in real life.

Your choice.

I choose to interpret this as saying you have cake and are invite'n me to your house to have some, though so help you if it isn't ice cream cake! *shakes fist*

[JasonPogo]

David Gaider wrote...

Zanderat wrote...
I don't care for your dismissive eltiist attitude.  Maybe you should LISTEN and acknowledge what your CUSTOMERS are saying.

And I don't care for your dismissive, elitist attitude.

I have listened to feedback on this topic at length, and responded to much of it. If I'm not willing to leap onto every single thread where someone takes what I've said and misinterprets it in the worst possible light (or simply assumes the worst), it's because my time comes in limited amounts-- not to mention my patience.

So you can either read what I've said (which Catcher has kindly posted) and offer your own feedback with the perspective that it is an opinion of one customer out of many, many customers-- one who happens to have the opportunity to offer their opinion in a place where we might see it-- or you can toss aside perspective and rant at whatever grievance you perceive, and be listened to about as much as you might to someone speaking to you in a similar fashion in real life.

Your choice.

Wow David just said there will be no conversation in the next DA!!!!  We will now have unvoiced cardboard cuttouts fallow around our character as he hits stuff with a stick!!