206 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...

I think you may, in part, simply be mistaking the amount of writing that goes into a full game like DAO and the amount that can go into something like an expansion or a tiny piece of DLC. I realize some people had issues with the interface used in Awakening, but even if that interface was what you were used to in Origins that wouldn't change the fact that there was exponentially less dialogue. That's something the "use both systems!' camp seems to forget. The word budget for Awakening was less than a tenth of Origins.

I understand that there will always be less volume of dialogue in a shorter 10-20 hour expansion versus a 80+ hour full game. Sure, to an extent the lack of MOAR! dialogue is part of why I personally didn't really feel much of a connection to the Awakening characters versus Origins. But I still feel like the interface was an issue for me insofar as clicking on objects to start dialogue broke the whole mysterious, vague notion of "immersion" and ended up feeling like a mini-game versus connecting with the party members.

As a suggestion, for an "experimental" DLC or something how about ditching VO dialogue completely and go old school like Baldur's Gate with all text and minimal or no VO? Yeah probably not happening but thats the kind of different thing I could get behind.

David Gaider wrote...
Maybe we shouldn't have tried to introduce new characters with that budget? Maybe. Hindsight is always 20/20, as they say, and our effort was spent trying to present it as well as we could and also innovate a little to try some new things (which we tend to when it comes to expansions).

I'd totally agree. Maybe not that you guys shouldn't have tried to introduce any new characters, but having 5 (or 6 if you want to include the unfortunate Ser Cauthrien wanna-be) new companions to get to know and try to care about within the confines of a 10-20 hour expansion was a bit of a stretch. At least in an expansion where you're able to play the PC from the main game I 'd think it would work better with more of your companions from the original game. At least that way given the shorter game, you already have a foundation to build off of with that character. Or even just having the bare minimum of 3 companions, one of each class, but giving them more depth would be preferred IMO.

David Gaider wrote...
...and using them to extrapolate our intentions for future full-budget games is an interesting exercise, I'm sure, but you're welcome to try.

Bah!  How else are we going to forecast doom and gloom and worst case scenarios?

[Syracuse]

Gosh...did everyone forget the original Zelda games? The first three had *one* main character, and as for plot, you could have named them all "Sleeping Beauty and the Magic Triangle of Mystery:Variations on a Theme". And we LOVED them; weird, square side-scrolling Link and the townspeople apparently so inbred that they all looked the same, everywhere...Spectacle Rock and the Master Sword...those games were a staple for a whole generation; bad graphics, cliche plot and all. We all muddled through without seven-page meltdowns about the video game apocalypse.

And now? We make lengthy threads postulating and complaining about a game with a story and characters so vivid and well designed that they seem human; people that actually look like...people! So engaging that it's spurred machinima and art and amazing fan fiction; produced by a company who cares about its fans enough to provide them with a forum to complain in the first place. And the icing on the cake? The Bioware folks actually take the time to respond to those concerns, numerous and belligerent though the are. The field of electronic entertainment has come light years in the last two decades, but there will always be that group of fractious, opinionated nay-sayers who can't be pleased, and want us all to know it. Everything is amazing, no one is happy. So hey, send me an SASE and I'll personally write you a note of apology on behalf of Bioware for stealing 50 hours of your life, ruining everything good and beautiful, and taking the game in a direction so unthinkably ridiculous that the company will be bankrupt by tomorrow morning.

[soteria]

I see your point but I don't want to talk about that tree. I don't even want to look at that tree. I want to talk to Anders about Anders. I want to know who he is other than a tower hating mage. Perhaps if there were a trigger when you approach the tree the first time with the relevant party member in your group.

Example - you are on approach to Ameranthine, you are within 10 feet or so of the tree. Anders suddenly pipes up "Ooo look at that tree". PC goes ahhh ha! There is a conversation trigger near - and begins holding tab to look for it.

Well, technically, he's commenting on the smell, and the conversation quickly moves away from the tree to talking about Anders. I'm not saying what you're suggesting is a bad idea, but the only difference is the audible hint to look for the clickable.

As for the people who detest the camp talks so much, I just want to point out that you in no way have to talk to them. There is no required rounds you have to make to ensure you have gotten every bit of information on every party member for the umpteeth time. Yes, I know the OCD compelles us. But you can skip that crap about this or that and guess what? You still make it to the top of Fort Drakon in time to fight the Archdemon.

Functionally, what you're suggesting is the same as my saying, "Hey, if you hated clicking on trees to initiate dialogue, just don't do it. You'll still reach the Mother's lair." It's not a very good solution, eh? Not that I would say I detest the camp conversations.

[I Valente I]

Syracuse wrote...

Gosh...did everyone forget the original Zelda games? The first three had *one* main character, and as for plot, you could have named them all "Sleeping Beauty and the Magic Triangle of Mystery:Variations on a Theme". And we LOVED them; weird, square side-scrolling Link and the townspeople apparently so inbred that they all looked the same, everywhere...Spectacle Rock and the Master Sword...those games were a staple for a whole generation; bad graphics, cliche plot and all. We all muddled through without seven-page meltdowns about the video game apocalypse.
And now? We make lengthy threads postulating and complaining about a game with a story and characters so vivid and well designed that they seem human; people that actually look like...people! So engaging that it's spurred machinima and art and amazing fan fiction; produced by a company who cares about its fans enough to provide them with a forum to complain in the first place. And the icing on the cake? The Bioware folks actually take the time to respond to those concerns, numerous and belligerent though the are. The field of electronic entertainment has come light years in the last two decades, but there will always be that group of fractious, opinionated nay-sayers who can't be pleased, and want us all to know it. Everything is amazing, no one is happy. So hey, send me an SASE and I'll personally write you a note of apology on behalf of Bioware for stealing 50 hours of your life, ruining everything good and beautiful, and taking the game in a direction so unthinkably ridiculous that the company will be bankrupt by tomorrow morning.

you win post of the week in my book! and yes...I loved the original Zelda games and yes, I used to think their stories were magnificent hehe.

[Scalett Dragonavicious]

Syracuse wrote...

Gosh...did everyone forget the original Zelda games? The first three had *one* main character, and as for plot, you could have named them all "Sleeping Beauty and the Magic Triangle of Mystery:Variations on a Theme". And we LOVED them; weird, square side-scrolling Link and the townspeople apparently so inbred that they all looked the same, everywhere...Spectacle Rock and the Master Sword...those games were a staple for a whole generation; bad graphics, cliche plot and all. We all muddled through without seven-page meltdowns about the video game apocalypse.
And now? We make lengthy threads postulating and complaining about a game with a story and characters so vivid and well designed that they seem human; people that actually look like...people! So engaging that it's spurred machinima and art and amazing fan fiction; produced by a company who cares about its fans enough to provide them with a forum to complain in the first place. And the icing on the cake? The Bioware folks actually take the time to respond to those concerns, numerous and belligerent though the are. The field of electronic entertainment has come light years in the last two decades, but there will always be that group of fractious, opinionated nay-sayers who can't be pleased, and want us all to know it. Everything is amazing, no one is happy. So hey, send me an SASE and I'll personally write you a note of apology on behalf of Bioware for stealing 50 hours of your life, ruining everything good and beautiful, and taking the game in a direction so unthinkably ridiculous that the company will be bankrupt by tomorrow morning.

^^ I love this whole response. (Although I've never played Zelda at all)

So I'm late to this party but I'm just gonna share my opinion anyway.

I own the Awakening Game but I haven't played it yet (so I can't answer diffinitively on the convo system). The reason is simply because I've tried to pull every ounce of gameplay out of DA:O, most of this being the in depth conversation.

Part of what makes Dragon Age so appealing to me is the conversations (Although I know that may not be true with everyone). You could slowly see people warm up to you, flirt with your love interest, ask questions you needed answered and pick up little hints at future betrayals. The characters in Dragon Age were so real and dynamic and part of that had to do with them being developed through conversations. And Dragon Age always seemed to be a novel come to life, lots of action and adventure, peppered with plenty of in depth dialogue.

Now that that's all said and done I really don't feel people need to truely freak out about this. Bioware's awesome and Awakening is just an expansion. We can't really expect so much from an expansion can we? They cut down on dialouge sure, but maybe it was to save funds for other things (like an upcoming sequel to a certain best selling fantasy game!)

All I'm saying is, sure lets complain and talk about this stuff but we should leave the important stuff to the professionals, I'm sure they'll consider out opinions.

[MistySun]

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[/quote]
I think you may, in part, simply be mistaking the amount of writing that goes into a full game like DAO and the amount that can go into something like an expansion or a tiny piece of DLC. I realize some people had issues with the interface used in Awakening, but even if that interface was what you were used to in Origins that wouldn't change the fact that there was exponentially less dialogue. That's something the "use both systems!' camp seems to forget. The word budget for Awakening was less than a tenth of Origins.

Maybe we shouldn't have tried to introduce new characters with that budget? Maybe. Hindsight is always 20/20, as they say, and our effort was spent trying to present it as well as we could and also innovate a little to try some new things (which we tend to when it comes to expansions). And DLC is going to be even more daring than that-- some are going to be story-driven, some not. Some things work out, some don't, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying-- and using them to extrapolate our intentions for future full-budget games is an interesting exercise, I'm sure, but you're welcome to try.

[/quote]


Once again David thanks for responding. You seem to be a very patient man...and understanding too  
 

I am happy to see you say at least some DLC will be story driven. I am sure we will all look forward to them. Yes, i also agree that i did not take into account *budget*
With a certain budget you can only do so much to a DLC or game.

Howver, i try to be merciful.

Sorry that i got your quote wrong...it should of been in the first box.

Modifié par MistySun, 25 mai 2010 - 07:47 .

[nubbers666]

the whole reason i liked dao was the interactions in camp and on the road removeing these would pretty much remove me from buying any thing else of dao product and im sure there are a large # of pepole who feel the same way

if some pepole find it offensive in a way then add a option allowing them to turn that sort of thing off

[theczaroftsars]

I Valente I wrote...

Syracuse wrote...

Gosh...did everyone forget the original Zelda games? The first three had *one* main character, and as for plot, you could have named them all "Sleeping Beauty and the Magic Triangle of Mystery:Variations on a Theme". And we LOVED them; weird, square side-scrolling Link and the townspeople apparently so inbred that they all looked the same, everywhere...Spectacle Rock and the Master Sword...those games were a staple for a whole generation; bad graphics, cliche plot and all. We all muddled through without seven-page meltdowns about the video game apocalypse.
And now? We make lengthy threads postulating and complaining about a game with a story and characters so vivid and well designed that they seem human; people that actually look like...people! So engaging that it's spurred machinima and art and amazing fan fiction; produced by a company who cares about its fans enough to provide them with a forum to complain in the first place. And the icing on the cake? The Bioware folks actually take the time to respond to those concerns, numerous and belligerent though the are. The field of electronic entertainment has come light years in the last two decades, but there will always be that group of fractious, opinionated nay-sayers who can't be pleased, and want us all to know it. Everything is amazing, no one is happy. So hey, send me an SASE and I'll personally write you a note of apology on behalf of Bioware for stealing 50 hours of your life, ruining everything good and beautiful, and taking the game in a direction so unthinkably ridiculous that the company will be bankrupt by tomorrow morning.

you win post of the week in my book! and yes...I loved the original Zelda games and yes, I used to think their stories were magnificent hehe.

Yes that is an excellent post, and both camps are making good arguments, but i think it those 'nay-sayers' who are forcing positive change and progression when needed, eventhough they can be very nasty when doing so

[Aulis Vaara]

While introducing new characters wasn't a bad idea, it might've been better to tone down on the number and instead bring back a couple of the old characters. Most obviously the love interests that had no excuse to be anywhere else (Leliana and Zevran).

That said, some of the Awakenings characters were interesting, but not much fleshed out. Anders certainly seemed interesting. Justice was the most fleshed out in my opinion, or maybe that's just because I had him in my party from the moment I met him, or maybe he simply had the most powerful background story. EDIT:: Actually, come to think of it, it was his limited character that made him interesting. He knew only Justice, never needing to introduce other parts of his character, but simply alluding to the fact that one obsession isn't enough. That simply fits with the format of Awakening and is probably why the character worked so well.

Oghren was more annoying than funny in the expansion, which was a bit of a let down, so bringing old characters back is not a guarantee that we'll love them, or that they will be great. But previously established characters require less work and thus there would be more time to flesh out the new characters.

Also, on the new Awakenings system: I got a quest to talk to Oghren, but I couldn't ! Clicking on him didn't initiate the talk, nor did clicking on his cask of beer and I hadn't a clue where next to look. Just a very specific example of why we don't want that system.

And last but not least, in response to Syracuse. Just because we have come a long way, doesn't mean there is no room for improvement. We're not bashing Bioware, we're trying to get them to make the games that we want.

Modifié par Aulis Vaara, 25 mai 2010 - 11:25 .

[Blakes 7]

I may just have to give dragon age sequel a chance - glad your trying to innovate on providing context to character's and flesh them out a bit. Keep experimenting David - it's the only way to find out what works. I mean people should think about the civ games in relation to this. Same basic game but the mechanics are always changing and evolving with every iteration - and its still civ.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

Maybe we shouldn't have tried to introduce new characters with that budget? Maybe.

Depends on what the alternative to that would be i suppose. But the ones you did introduce worked well imo, especially given the limits you had to work with. It's just how the interactions were initiated that felt clunky and confining.

[tmp7704]

Incidentally, this may be wrong thread to ask in, but ... the single jarring moment i had with the companion dialogue in Awakening was --without getting into spoiler territory-- when making choice about the city, one of the companions seemed completely unconcerned their own family member was living in there. This factor didn't get mentioned at all and there was no option to bring it up, either. So just curious if that's result of the word budget, an oversight or maybe a conscious decision..?

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 mai 2010 - 08:45 .

[pvpgirl]

soteria wrote...

Well, technically, he's commenting on the smell, and the conversation quickly moves away from the tree to talking about Anders. I'm not saying what you're suggesting is a bad idea, but the only difference is the audible hint to look for the clickable.

Functionally, what you're suggesting is the same as my saying, "Hey, if you hated clicking on trees to initiate dialogue, just don't do it. You'll still reach the Mother's lair." It's not a very good solution, eh? Not that I would say I detest the camp conversations.

  Give me a break. I could only stand Awakenings enough to play it once.  I honestly didn't even remember what the tree conversation was about.  I just ment that at least the audible clue would let you know why you were clicking on the tree in the first place.  Otherwise, I would have no interest in bothering to click it. 

As far as the clicking on trees bit, I think my biggest problem with it is the very limited amount of conversations.  You get all of 1 conversation with Nathan in the throne room.  (that I recall, correct me if I'm wrong.)  There are a few opportunities to talk to him outside.  These all dependant on you having him in the party for this or that mission.   I guess I would just rather have the majority of my conversations layed out and easy to access rather than play easter egg hunt for them out in the wild yonder is what it boils down to.   

[Lyna357]

An Easter egg hunt is a good way of putting it, mcomommy. I expected the conversation system to be the same as Origins, considering it was an expansion. They should have told us that it was going to be an "experimental" endeavor before we bought it.

[MistySun]

The lack of conversation was the worst thing about Awakenings. But like mcomommy i only played it through once. That was enough.

Compare that to multiple playthroughs with DAO...well, you get my drift?

[k9medusa]

mcomommy wrote...
 I guess I would just rather have the majority of my conversations layed out and easy to access rather than play easter egg hunt for them out in the wild yonder is what it boils down to.   

is 

This how I feel most of the time...  Some talk out of the time -- like 5% or 10% o  the time, I like to choose when I should have the talk or not...  Sometimes, I just want action, but other times I want story ...  In the camp, I can pick when the best time for the story or action....

[k9medusa]

DAO:A is great as "stand alone game", but don't compare it to DAO...

[wildannie]

I didn't like the awakening system too much especially as we had so many new characters to get to know.



I definately prefer to have freedom to start conversations when at camp, but in DAO (playing on 360) i often accidentally initiated conversations in between battling whilst collecting loot...



Zev: 'seems like an appropriate time... [to give earring] - this is whilst covered in blood with two other npcs looking on...



Not REALLY the most appropriate time!



So I look forward to seeing how Bioware take the convo system forward and hope that it remains as immersive as DAO.

[BananaCustard]

I really tried after reading what you at Bioware hope to achieve with Awakening, getting the characters to react while clicking on "scenery". I played it through a 3rd time. As I said I tried to get into it, but it certainly did not feel the same as the whole package in Origins. It really felt like one of the old roleplaying PC games, where you are being led through the whole story, just clicking your mousebuttom, but unable to actually participate. I understand the whole issue with budget, and in a way I am glad this discussion started now and not after a (hopefully..?) finished DAO2.



As someone else already said, in Origin it felt like you are included in the story, that it makes a difference in getting to know the people who you are travelling with. I believe you when you say there has to be a huge amount of writing and effort, and planning to be done...but, that's what makes it special. I am afraid you yourselves set a very high standard with Origins, which means in a way you have to get there again, or even higher (that's what I hope :-) ), or players will be disapointed. I don't think it is a horrible position to be in, but certainly a very challenging one. Especially because todays goals are..cheaper, faster, less for more money. I am NOT saying or accusing that you work under such circumstances, but I can vividly imagine someone higher up applying pressure in such a way.

[MistySun]

BananaCustard wrote...

I really tried after reading what you at Bioware hope to achieve with Awakening, getting the characters to react while clicking on "scenery". I played it through a 3rd time. As I said I tried to get into it, but it certainly did not feel the same as the whole package in Origins. It really felt like one of the old roleplaying PC games, where you are being led through the whole story, just clicking your mousebuttom, but unable to actually participate. I understand the whole issue with budget, and in a way I am glad this discussion started now and not after a (hopefully..?) finished DAO2.

As someone else already said, in Origin it felt like you are included in the story, that it makes a difference in getting to know the people who you are travelling with. I believe you when you say there has to be a huge amount of writing and effort, and planning to be done...but, that's what makes it special. I am afraid you yourselves set a very high standard with Origins, which means in a way you have to get there again, or even higher (that's what I hope :-) ), or players will be disapointed. I don't think it is a horrible position to be in, but certainly a very challenging one. Especially because todays goals are..cheaper, faster, less for more money. I am NOT saying or accusing that you work under such circumstances, but I can vividly imagine someone higher up applying pressure in such a way.

Very well put BananaCustard...you are so much better than me.  

Modifié par MistySun, 26 mai 2010 - 06:42 .

[Demx]

Let me see if I got this correct. Gaider and the others didn't like the idea of playing 20 questions in Origins, because having such a system in place allows the PC to practically use up all the dialogue for your companions and you don't even have to start on your adventure. So the team changed the formula to click-able objects to pad things out in Awakening. Gaider also stated that the conversation system will never completely go back to the way it was in Origins, but will expand upon the ideas set in Awakening.

This is all fine and dandy, but there weren't any hints as to whom was suppose to interact with what. When I was playing Awakening for the first time, I was expecting that when I clicked a person I get dialogue and and when I click an object I get treasure or an enemy. I had no idea that I had to click on the anvil (with Oghren in my party) in the dungeon in order to get Oghren to talk about his past.

I guess I was expecting something more obvious if I had to click an object to initiate dialogue. Something like a party member stopping at the object looking at it and talking out loud about it. Then you could choose to click it or move on.

If DA2 is going to expand upon the Awakening dialogue system, I would still like to see the old dialogue sandwiched in the game somewhere. Such as after completing an area, back at camp it will unlock some dialogue dealing with a character. If there are going to be romances in DA2, please leave it where I have to click on the character in order to initiate it. Clicking on a bedroll to me would seem like I'm saying, "Bed. Sex now. Give."

Modifié par Siradix, 26 mai 2010 - 07:33 .

[GardenSnake]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I think you may, in part, simply be mistaking the amount of writing that goes into a full game like DAO and the amount that can go into something like an expansion or a tiny piece of DLC. I realize some people had issues with the interface used in Awakening, but even if that interface was what you were used to in Origins that wouldn't change the fact that there was exponentially less dialogue. That's something the "use both systems!' camp seems to forget. The word budget for Awakening was less than a tenth of Origins.

I understand that there will always be less volume of dialogue in a shorter 10-20 hour expansion versus a 80+ hour full game. Sure, to an extent the lack of MOAR! dialogue is part of why I personally didn't really feel much of a connection to the Awakening characters versus Origins. But I still feel like the interface was an issue for me insofar as clicking on objects to start dialogue broke the whole mysterious, vague notion of "immersion" and ended up feeling like a mini-game versus connecting with the party members.

As a suggestion, for an "experimental" DLC or something how about ditching VO dialogue completely and go old school like Baldur's Gate with all text and minimal or no VO? Yeah probably not happening but thats the kind of different thing I could get behind.

David Gaider wrote...
Maybe we shouldn't have tried to introduce new characters with that budget? Maybe. Hindsight is always 20/20, as they say, and our effort was spent trying to present it as well as we could and also innovate a little to try some new things (which we tend to when it comes to expansions).

I'd totally agree. Maybe not that you guys shouldn't have tried to introduce any new characters, but having 5 (or 6 if you want to include the unfortunate Ser Cauthrien wanna-be) new companions to get to know and try to care about within the confines of a 10-20 hour expansion was a bit of a stretch. At least in an expansion where you're able to play the PC from the main game I 'd think it would work better with more of your companions from the original game. At least that way given the shorter game, you already have a foundation to build off of with that character. Or even just having the bare minimum of 3 companions, one of each class, but giving them more depth would be preferred IMO.

David Gaider wrote...
...and using them to extrapolate our intentions for future full-budget games is an interesting exercise, I'm sure, but you're welcome to try.

Bah!  How else are we going to forecast doom and gloom and worst case scenarios?

Disagreed on the part about not being able to connect to characters as well with only 20 hours. That's approximately what it takes me to beat Jade Empire and both KOTOR's and I love those characters to death.

[GardenSnake]

dan107 wrote...

GardenSnake wrote...

dan107 wrote...

I actually like the Awakening style conversation system. It's much more realistic to have NPCs comment about events and people in the world, as opposed to playing twenty irrelevant questions back at camp. Ideally I'd like to have them comment and go into depth on the various decisions and situations that are meaningful to me as a player, rather than random trees and such, but this is a step in the right direction IMO.

FAIL

Because I have an opinion that's different from yours? Lol, you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are ya?

No, you're quite right. I consider myself more of a spoon.  Don't call me Shirley.