177 réponses à ce sujet

[Hadark]

C9316 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Jzadek72 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Jzadek72 wrote...
One word: Akuze

And?

Never played sole survivor? Because that's why both me and my character hates Cerberus. I want to continue working with them though. Good conflict.

Sole Survivor? You mean corporal Toombs? Too bad the guy got himself killed when refused to follow my order to lay down his weapon. But as far as I could understand out of his incoherent speech there, from the fact that the scientists contracted by Cerberus had experimented on him, he had jumped to the conclusion that the Akuze incident had been masterminded by Cerberus all along.

Even if so, I'm not the one complaining, because after Akuze the Alliance Marines were equipped with M35 "Mako" IFVs, that performed brilliantly against thresher maws on multiple occasions, including several with my own participation.

So? Cerberus sent those marines, not just marines HUMAN MARINES to their deaths just so they could get a new toy!? **** Cerberus. How can they claim to protect humanity if they are willing to sacrifice the very people they want to protect? Cerberus saw those men as expendable. They don't care about freaking LIVES! This is why I hate Cerberus. They don't care about Humanity, they only want power. And if anyone, even humans, get in their way, so they die. Freaking animals! And Human supremecists at that, they are unbelieveable!

this I believe completely kudos Green Dragon you have my respect

A few die for the sake of many???

[Dean_the_Young]

Sole Survivor?



My sole survivor is a Cerberus member of long history, since at least N7. Getting her selected as the first human Spectre was one of TIM's biggest triumphs. Her loyalty was unquestionable after her performance at Akuze.



What, surprised? How do you think she survived?

[Hadark]

I'm still actually surprised no one has mentioned that it was the Alliance initially that starts up these programs or groups and that after Cerberus broke free The Alliance started the Corsairs (another black ops group)Large co.'s or Org's will always toss out the little guy to the wolves to keep from being blamed for anything.

[Arijharn]

Do we know that Cerberus purposely sent alliance marines to Akuze? Maybe they sort to rectify the situation (knowing something big and bad is happening there)? Perhaps Cerberus had nothign to do with the Thresher Maws beforehand and only became aware of them when the rest of the Alliance did. Afterall, how do you 'lure' a Thresher Maw to a planet? The Thresher Maws attacked a colony, the Alliance sent marines to investigate which, by the way, is what the marines are there for.

[DPSSOC]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

So? Cerberus sent those marines, not just marines HUMAN MARINES to their deaths just so they could get a new toy!? **** Cerberus. How can they claim to protect humanity if they are willing to sacrifice the very people they want to protect?

 
The same way governments can claim to protect their people and then send them off to war to get killed.  In the name of protecting the whole some individuals must die.  Unfortunate but unavoidable.

[Keltoris]

DPSSOC wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

So? Cerberus sent those marines, not just marines HUMAN MARINES to their deaths just so they could get a new toy!? **** Cerberus. How can they claim to protect humanity if they are willing to sacrifice the very people they want to protect?

 
The same way governments can claim to protect their people and then send them off to war to get killed.  In the name of protecting the whole some individuals must die.  Unfortunate but unavoidable.

The difference is when the army goes to war, they know there are people there with guns. Akuze was a recon
 in force that was sent to a Thresher Maw nest site while looking for pirates.

They were equipped and trained to deal with people, not giant acid-spitting, people-swallowing worms.


And even if by some freak chance all the cells that apparently went rogue actually were; I'd still be against Cerberus for having that poor discipline with their operations.

[DPSSOC]

Keltoris wrote...

The difference is when the army goes to war, they know there are people there with guns. Akuze was a recon
 in force that was sent to a Thresher Maw nest site while looking for pirates.

They were equipped and trained to deal with people, not giant acid-spitting, people-swallowing worms.


And even if by some freak chance all the cells that apparently went rogue actually were; I'd still be against Cerberus for having that poor discipline with their operations.

Certainly I'm not saying all Cerberus actions are defendable (though really all but the most insane actions are to a degree) simply that the "How can they claim to protect humanity when they kill humans" argument is flawed in ignoring the occassional need to sacrfice a few individuals for the betterment of the group.  For example yes Akuze saw 48/49 Marines killed but this alerted the Alliance to the need to train and prepare for rather sneaky giant acid spewing worms in recon missions which kept it from happening to others (unless lured in by Alliance distress beacons).  Now if the odd patrol went missing every now and again how long do you think it would have taken them to catch on to what was happening?  Humans are good at many things, pattern recognition is not one of them.  So rather than waiting for someone to catch on to the existence and sneakiness of the giant acid spewing worms there's a single cataclysmic event that forces them to act immediately.

[Terraneaux]

Keltoris wrote...
And even if by some freak chance all the cells that apparently went rogue actually were; I'd still be against Cerberus for having that poor discipline with their operations.

As far as the Akuze op goes, if it was a behavioral experiment to determine the combat readiness of Marines that was one thing, but they ended up abducting them and injecting acid in their veins.  I guess TIM must have skipped high school chemistry when they explained what acid does.  

And at the people claiming that Kahoku was a traitor: HE was hunting down a rogue element, which was actually already operating outside the chain of command at that point.  It's extremely ironic to call Kahoku a traitor, when he was literally hunting traitors at the time.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Looks like I arrived a bit late.

[DOYOURLABS]

They are still responsible for akuze. Your point is irrelevant.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Maybe Shepard's comrades were complete dicks and Cerberus was doing the galaxy a favor

[DOYOURLABS]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Maybe Shepard's comrades were complete dicks and Cerberus was doing the galaxy a favor

Or maybe the marines were delivering candy to turians, but cerberus didn't want turians taking human candy.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

DPSSOC wrote...
 simply that the "How can they claim to protect humanity when they kill humans" argument is flawed in ignoring the occassional need to sacrfice a few individuals for the betterment of the group. 

I would say rare occasion.

For example yes Akuze saw 48/49 Marines killed but this alerted the Alliance to the need to train and prepare for rather sneaky giant acid spewing worms in recon missions which kept it from happening to others (unless lured in by Alliance distress beacons). 

I am pretty sure we knew giant thresher maws existed before then if Cerbersus knew.

"

If Commander Shepard has the Sole Survivor
background, Shepard alone survived the thresher attack on Akuze.
However, Shepard may later encounter a second survivor in the mission UNC: Dead Scientists, Corporal Toombs, who claims that a black-ops group called Cerberus
caused the massacre at Akuze deliberately. He says Cerberus scientists
wanted to study the thresher maws, so they let them kill not only the
colonists, but the marine rescue team as well, to watch and study.
Cerberus was delighted that Toombs survived and held him captive for
years, using him for experiments. It is likely Toombs' story is true, as
Cerberus used a similar technique six years later, luring Admiral Kahoku's marine team to their deaths in a thresher
nest on Edolus.
"

- Mass Effect Wiki Codex http://masseffect.wi...i/Thresher_maws

Now if the odd patrol went missing every now and again how long do you think it would have taken them to catch on to what was happening?  Humans are good at many things, pattern recognition is not one of them.  So rather than waiting for someone to catch on to the existence and sneakiness of the giant acid spewing worms there's a single cataclysmic event that forces them to act immediately.

Pretty damn quickly Actually.  Some humans suck at pattern recoginition, others excell at them. Not all humans suck at them just like not all humans are poor in one area.

Sorry Cerbersus wasn't looking to "help" the allaince, they were studying them and wanted some behavioral data, so they fed them humans.  Wonderful way to show thresher maws are dangerous. I am sure the krogan can testify as to how hard they are to kill. Or any other race upon asking. I am sure Alliance scientists pooled over the Asari/Turian/Salarian database of  "dangerous creatures" you may enencounter on other planets.

Cerbersus ain't got no exause what so ever for Akuze. And the only reason why they even know it was thresher maws was because sheppard surivived to tell the tale.

[Onyx Jaguar]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Maybe Shepard's comrades were complete dicks and Cerberus was doing the galaxy a favor

Or maybe the marines were delivering candy to turians, but cerberus didn't want turians taking human candy.

This is a high possibility, sole Survivor always seemed to be lenient towards Turian thugs

[superimposed]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sole Survivor?

My sole survivor is a Cerberus member of long history, since at least N7. Getting her selected as the first human Spectre was one of TIM's biggest triumphs. Her loyalty was unquestionable after her performance at Akuze.

What, surprised? How do you think she survived?

No she wasn't. What you want the backstory to be doesn't overwrite what the back story is.

[-Skorpious-]

superimposed wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sole Survivor?

My sole survivor is a Cerberus member of long history, since at least N7. Getting her selected as the first human Spectre was one of TIM's biggest triumphs. Her loyalty was unquestionable after her performance at Akuze.

What, surprised? How do you think she survived?

No she wasn't. What you want the backstory to be doesn't overwrite what the back story is.

Why not? Roleplaying Shepard's background is perfectly acceptable. Who said Shepard didn't work with Cerberus before joining the Alliance? It's not like he/she would admit to joining a rogue military group.

However, Cerberus is the living embodiment of evil - they hire people like Kelly who purposely forget to feed living creatures (I loved those fish ) 

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

*catches grenade*



it didn't asplode.

[Dean_the_Young]

superimposed wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sole Survivor?

My sole survivor is a Cerberus member of long history, since at least N7. Getting her selected as the first human Spectre was one of TIM's biggest triumphs. Her loyalty was unquestionable after her performance at Akuze.

What, surprised? How do you think she survived?

No she wasn't. What you want the backstory to be doesn't overwrite what the back story is.

I overwrote nothing. I am the sole survivor. My unit did get killed.

Everything else is for players to fill in. How you survived, why you survived, even who picked you up.

Now, one might think that TIM and Shepard's first meeting would have introductions that invalidate that, but it really doesn't. You can choose the lines such that it may as well be continuing an old, top-secret relationship.

[GothamLord]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Why not? Roleplaying Shepard's background is perfectly acceptable. Who said Shepard didn't work with Cerberus before joining the Alliance? It's not like he/she would admit to joining a rogue military group.

However, Cerberus is the living embodiment of evil - they hire people like Kelly who purposely forget to feed living creatures (I loved those fish ) 

Joining the Cerberus before the events of ME1 would have been joining the Alliance.  The claim of going *rogue* didnt happen until after Shepard became a Spectre.  Akuze was a Alliance directed operation through Cerberus.

[superimposed]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sole Survivor?

My sole survivor is a Cerberus member of long history, since at least N7. Getting her selected as the first human Spectre was one of TIM's biggest triumphs. Her loyalty was unquestionable after her performance at Akuze.

What, surprised? How do you think she survived?

No she wasn't. What you want the backstory to be doesn't overwrite what the back story is.

I overwrote nothing. I am the sole survivor. My unit did get killed.

Everything else is for players to fill in. How you survived, why you survived, even who picked you up.

Now, one might think that TIM and Shepard's first meeting would have introductions that invalidate that, but it really doesn't. You can choose the lines such that it may as well be continuing an old, top-secret relationship.

You survived because you are Commander ****ing Shepard, you can survive a rocket to the face - twice. Also note that if you picked a different background, your hilarious assumption does not apply.
Also, what?

No, seriously, what?
Do you do children's parties? Cause this is one of the funniest theories next to Tali being some space elf.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Jzadek72 wrote...
Yes, it's a good thing people were masacred, now we have a better weapon. Cerberus aren't evil at all.[/quote]
I'm glad you see it now.


[quote]ThisIsMadness91 wrote...
you can convince Toombs to stand down with a high enough Charm skill.
[/quote]
But, part of role playing is that you act like IRL, that is as if you don't know for sure if your words will be enough.


[quote]Some Dude wrote...
*catches grenade and returns it to sender*[/quote]
*watches the grenade exploding a foot and a half on its way back*

Four second fuses last only three seconds!


[quote]C9316 wrote...
hmm... Cerberus=Human Supremacists, Supremacists=those who believe in the belief that a particular race, religion, gender, species, sexual orientation, belief system or culture is superior to others and entitles those who identify with it to dominate, control or rule those who do not. so................... Supremacists= KKK, ****s, Al-Queda, Taliban therefore Cerberus in a way is equal to KKK, ****s, Al-Queda, Taliban IMO thats why I hate cerberus
[/quote]
Those who believe that supremacism is bad, imlpy that it's inferior to their own beliefs. That is their beliefs are superior to those of the supremacits. That they, goody-two-shoes tolerant liberals are superior to the KKK, NАZIs, Al-Qaida, the Commies, homophobes... etc. Liberals are supremacists!!!


[quote]Steel Dancer wrote...
So they stood by and let it happen? Didn't do anything to warn anyone or try and prevent it?
[/quote]
First, Cerberus ain't no frikking Chip 'n Dale.
Secondly, in this particular case, as I said, the single Cerberus operative obtained his delivery and took off. He wasn't "standing by and letting it happen". Cerberus knew what happened to the colony from your report.


[quote]GreenDragon37 wrote...
So? Cerberus sent those marines, not just marines HUMAN MARINES to their deaths just so they could get a new toy!? **** Cerberus. How can they claim to protect humanity if they are willing to sacrifice the very people they want to protect? Cerberus saw those men as expendable. They don't care about freaking LIVES! This is why I hate Cerberus. They don't care about Humanity, they only want power. And if anyone, even humans, get in their way, so they die. Freaking animals! And Human supremecists at that, they are unbelieveable! [/quote]
First, "Mako" is not a toy. It's a new infantry fighting vehicle. Which means billions of credits of military spending. Something liberal cry-babies in parliaments and media are always opposed to. And it sometimes takes a lot of ugly news and field reports, to convince them, and even some dumb arses in the brass that our fighting men need the best equipment available.

Secondly, Cerberus sacrifices 50 people to save a thousand. They would sacrifice thousands to save billions. It's simple math.


[quote]Terraneaux wrote...
As far as the Akuze op goes, if it was a behavioral experiment to determine the combat readiness of Marines that was one thing, but they ended up abducting them and injecting acid in their veins.  I guess TIM must have skipped high school chemistry when they explained what acid does.[/quote]TIM? Or maybe Toobs skipped high school chemistry, so he wasn't too accurate in reporting what had been done to him?
[quote]Terraneaux wrote...
And at the people claiming that Kahoku was a traitor: HE was hunting down a rogue element, which was actually already operating outside the chain of command at that point.  It's extremely ironic to call Kahoku a traitor, when he was literally hunting traitors at the time.
[/quote]
Or so he was led to believe. Maybe intentionally by the Shadow Broker, or by the incomplete information provided by the Shadow Broker. It appeared before that Kahoku never even heard of Cerberus. I admit, that Kahoku's intent wasn't selfish or malcontent... But he was utterly incompetent in his decision making. Just like his marines on Edolus.


[quote]DOYOURLABS wrote...
They are still responsible for akuze. Your point is irrelevant.[/quote]
Your point is irrelevant, because, at the time of Akuze, Alliance was fully responsible for Cerberus. Toombs never brings up the notion that Cerberus was "rogue". And Hackett, while briefing you beforу you touch down on Ontharom says that somebody is killing the scientists that worked on a secret project for the Alliance.


[quote]Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
*catches grenade*
it didn't asplode.[/quote]
Of course it didn't. To you. Because the very instant it exploded, you died, so it never happened in you life.

Now, proceed to the load game menu.


[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
I overwrote nothing. I am the sole survivor. My unit did get killed.
Everything else is for players to fill in. How you survived, why you survived, even who picked you up.
Now, one might think that TIM and Shepard's first meeting would have introductions that invalidate that, but it really doesn't. You can choose the lines such that it may as well be continuing an old, top-secret relationship.
[/quote]
I've already said this is brilliant, and most legit... Tell me, did you picked up the "Why didn't you recruit me earlier" option in one of the Miranda conversations? You know, just so that she wouldn't surmise the truth?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 mai 2010 - 07:48 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Cerberus generally does what needs to be done! Sadly TIM has a problem of hiring incompetent and insane scientists to head most of his projects...

[Zulu_DFA]

ReconTeam wrote...

Cerberus generally does what needs to be done! Sadly TIM has a problem of hiring incompetent and insane scientists to head most of his projects...

Will you please list the names of the incompetent and insane scientists? Then count the entries?

If it's under five, I guess we are OK. Given that in ME universe we can blow up a planet with no major consequences to the big picture.

[Inquisitor Recon]

The rachni and thorian projects may have been worthy experiments, but they were handled poorly. I have had to clean up rachni, husks, thorian creepers, and soon geth and robots, all because somebody did a lousy job.

And the guy in charge of Jack's place and Akuze were dicks to the point of being clinically insane.

I don't think this is TIM's fault however. Rather heads of those mentioned operations weren't reliable, had too much independence and free reign, and thus started making poor choices.

By nature of Cerberus's layout there isn't that much oversight, although according to Miranda, TIM is trying to correct that.

[Zulu_DFA]

ReconTeam wrote...

The rachni and thorian projects may have been worthy experiments, but they were handled poorly. I have had to clean up rachni, husks, thorian creepers, and soon geth and robots, all because somebody did a lousy job.
And the guy in charge of Jack's place and Akuze were dicks to the point of being clinically insane.
I don't think this is TIM's fault however. Rather heads of those mentioned operations weren't reliable, had too much independence and free reign, and thus started making poor choices.
By nature of Cerberus's layout there isn't that much oversight, although according to Miranda, TIM is trying to correct that.

Thorian experiments we seen were run buy ExoGeni, not Cerberus. You canf find just three creepers in a Cerrberus base, that could as well be just another "samples" obtained by Cerberus from ExoGeni.

Cerberus "made" husks you encounter only on the Derelict Reaper. No surprise though.

Akuze may have been dicky, but it was (a) successful, ( at the time Cerberus was the Alliance (even if they aren't now).

So we get:

Rachni
Teltin
Reaper
Overlord

4 projects that went askew due to faulty management. But some result was salvaged from all of them. And in the case of the Reaper it covers all the investments including other projects by a fat margin.