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[Addai]

I just started a Dalish mage using the mod that unlocks that class for the Dalish origin.  In some thread or other I read that Gaider had said that the Dalish approach to magic was so different than the usual that they felt they couldn't incorporate it into the origin story.  That has me wondering what is so different.  The lore on the Dalish seems to be pretty sketchy.

You can tell from the game that generally keepers and their apprentices are the "official" mages of the clan.  OTOH, Lanaya talks about having to compete for first, so there must have been other contenders.  A Dalish PC is the child of a keeper, so even though not a keeper him/herself, it would be conceivable that they would be born with the aptitude.

Do any sources besides the obvious (codex, The Stolen Throne) exist for background lore on the Dalish?  I don't read the comics etc., so not sure if anything else has been written about them.  It's a bit hard to write character backstory with so little to draw from.  I find myself taking assumptions from Middle Earth which don't really apply.  Any ideas on how you roleplay your Dalish PC are welcome.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Suggest it to Gaider for the next game - he has a thread up about what kinds of creatures to incorporate into the next game. Perhaps the Dalish Sorcerer or Witch of the Wilds?

HIs thread is "New Creatures"

I don't think you mean to imply that a Dalish elf is a creature?  LOL  Or is the thread more general?  Anyway, I'll check it out, thanks.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...
And I'm not one to get excited about a billion classes like D&D's bard, mage, sorcerer, paladin, warrior, rogue, weapon expert, divine champion, pale master, monk, cleric, the list goes on forever.

I'm not, either.  I like roleplay that makes sense, and the mods allow you to move the bars a little bit within the same game structure without adding lots of classes.

I'm mainly curious about the sources people use for background on their Dalish PCs.

[Merilsell]

As for the background of my Mahariel and for my story, I have to make up much myself...due to the lack of info's I can get to it. As background I understand little things she had experienced before leaving her clan, playing tricks with Tamlen for example or the reason why she is afraid of cats/ hates them. She also came to know earlier how her parents died than originally in the game, which explains her hatred against humans.

Simply something that makes herself and the character more lively, 3-dimensional and believable.



The lore itself is a tricky thing, I'm still pondering about what for a meaning to give her Tattoo on the forehead, whether or not invent some holidays or special customs in my story ...cuz the game doesn't give much info itself for it.

Unfortunately.

[Addai]

Merilsell wrote...

As for the background of my Mahariel and for my story, I have to make up much myself...due to the lack of info's I can get to it. As background I understand little things she had experienced before leaving her clan, playing tricks with Tamlen for example or the reason why she is afraid of cats/ hates them. She also came to know earlier how her parents died than originally in the game, which explains her hatred against humans.
Simply something that makes herself and the character more lively, 3-dimensional and believable.

It does seem that you have to fill in the blanks yourself, and be willing to have some stuff retconned/ corrected if we find out more about the Dalish in future installments.  Which I sincerely hope we do!!!

Do you have an ethnic model you think fits?  I have heard the Dalish compared to Native Americans, but some of the gods remind me of Norse.  Like Fen'Harel-->Fenris/ Loki. 

The lore itself is a tricky thing, I'm still pondering about what for a meaning to give her Tattoo on the forehead, whether or not invent some holidays or special customs in my story ...cuz the game doesn't give much info itself for it.
Unfortunately.

I probably prefer that they leave open what the various tattoos can mean.  We know they are supposed to represent the gods, but you could interpret the designs different ways.

I believe our PCs have the same tattoo- the upward swirls on the forehead.  I am thinking you could associate that with either Sylaise, Keeper of the Hearth, because it looks like a fire, or Ghilan'nain, the Mother of Halla, because it sort of resembles halla horns.  For a mage, Sylaise would be a good choice since she is the source of magical healing.

[Merilsell]

Addai67 wrote... It does seem that you have to fill in the blanks yourself, and be willing to have some stuff retconned/ corrected if we find out more about the Dalish in future installments.  Which I sincerely hope we do!!!

I think the lacking thereof is the reason why many people can't connect to a Dalish PC or finds it boring. It is much more up to you to give your PC a character, than it is with the HNF for example. The origin story itself was good but I found it a bit lacking. I really wished that you'd belong to Zathrien's clan as a Dalish, or meet yours again. That would have given the story more emotional impact.

I really hope that we get more to know about them in the future ^^ Until then I have to work it out myself, it seems and have to life with the bits of info given.

Do you have an ethnic model you think fits?  I have heard the Dalish compared to Native Americans, but some of the gods remind me of Norse.  Like Fen'Harel-->Fenris/ Loki.

Hmm, come to think of it, I always thought of them more celtic or norse in some kind of way. Though the unyielding, proud mentality fits also to the Native American's, I think.

I probably prefer that they leave open what the various tattoos can mean.  We know they are supposed to represent the gods, but you could interpret the designs different ways.I believe our PCs have the same tattoo- the upward swirls on the forehead.  I am thinking you could associate that with either Sylaise, Keeper of the Hearth, because it looks like a fire, or Ghilan'nain, the Mother of Halla, because it sort of resembles halla horns.  For a mage, Sylaise would be a good choice since she is the source of magical healing.

Ah, yes they in fact have the same tattoo. Like your thought to it, really. I'm sure that I will find a fitting meaning for her tattoo...it's not bad that it is left open though...but sometimes a little info would be nice. As for now I think Andruil  the Goddess of the hunt would be a good choice, given how much my PC enjoys the hunt and the art of fighting itself.

[Rhys Cordelle]

I really wished that you'd belong to Zathrien's clan as a Dalish

Me too! I really want someone to explain why they didn't do it that way. It would have made a world of difference.



I've just installed the Dalish Mage mod too. Will see how I go.

[Sandtigress]

Yay, my favorite subject! I found it interesting that the Dalish don't seem to fear demons in the Beyond/Fade the way Circle trained mages do. Certainly you find no wariness in the origin for Keepers/other mages, the old magic just is, so one has to wonder if there is a reason why the Dalish don't fear/need to fear demon possession.



The old magic is also something unknown to those more used to Circle training - Duncan says he's never seen anything like the magic that was able to save you from the darkspawn taint, that your recovery was quite remarkable, and that it was completely unexpected. He brought you back basically expecting you to die in the arms of your clan.



I suspect that even though all Keepers/Keeper's firsts that we see in the game are mages that it's not a strict requirement for the position - as you say, Lanaya says that she had to compete for the position. That either means that many of the Dalish have magical aptitude or else it's not a requirement. And if many do have the aptitude it would appear that most don't use it, as the only mages we see who are obviously such are the Keeper and his/her first.

[Sarah1281]

You kind of have to wonder why Lanaya and the others cared so much about being the Keeper's apprentice since no one actually expecrted Zathrian to die and there must have been generations of apprentices who died without ever getting the chance to be Keeper.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 22 mai 2010 - 06:19 .

[Sandtigress]

Even the immortal Dalish could still die of illness or injury though, and I think the Dalish are more cautious about the continuance of their lore to risk not having a first in case something does happen to their Keeper.



And if if turned out that a first was ready to be Keeper without a position being open, then perhaps they moved on to another clan who needed one.

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

Yay, my favorite subject! I found it interesting that the Dalish don't seem to fear demons in the Beyond/Fade the way Circle trained mages do. Certainly you find no wariness in the origin for Keepers/other mages, the old magic just is, so one has to wonder if there is a reason why the Dalish don't fear/need to fear demon possession.

I really wonder about the elven take on the Fade.  It seems to operate much the way it does for the humans, though.  Fiona was caught in the Fade and tempted by demons just as human mages are.  Perhaps it is that the elves are more aware of the benevolent spirits of the Fade, so they have a more balanced view.  Zathrian summoned the forest's spirit, whereas Wynne seems very passive against her Fade fairy.

The old magic is also something unknown to those more used to Circle training - Duncan says he's never seen anything like the magic that was able to save you from the darkspawn taint, that your recovery was quite remarkable, and that it was completely unexpected. He brought you back basically expecting you to die in the arms of your clan.

Yes, all very interesting, and really it is quite a coup for the Grey Wardens to get a Dalish Warden.  I've always felt my DEF made the best Warden of any of my PCs.  She knows devotion to the clan, and she has had a close-up view of the threat the darkspawn pose simply by polluting the land, polluting objects, and sickening people, let alone from their more martial threat.

And if many do have the aptitude it would appear that most don't use it, as the only mages we see who are obviously such are the Keeper and his/her first.

Or that it's so accepted that they feel no need to mark out those people who have magical gifts from others?  There's no reason, if you don't fear mages, that you need to stick them in distinctive robes and advertise their presence.

[Addai]

I'll post this here as well as in the Alistair thread since it's somewhat on topic with playing a Dalish Warden. 

Alistair talking to my PC about Duncan and asking about Dalish funeral practices

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

I'll post this here as well as in the Alistair thread since it's somewhat on topic with playing a Dalish Warden. 

Alistair talking to my PC about Duncan and asking about Dalish funeral practices

I love this conversation.    It surprised me, after playing other origins, how very warm Alistair is there when he says what a beautiful ritual it is.  Yup, that's it. DEF and Alistair were just meant to be from the very very beginning!

[Vegielamb]

I know folks think the Dalish boring, but seriously, they are the most fun to actually play because they just don't care about civilization.

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

Or that it's so accepted that they feel no need to mark out those people who have magical gifts from others?  There's no reason, if you don't fear mages, that you need to stick them in distinctive robes and advertise their presence.

But you don't see anyone else with staffs and what not either - it's no weapons, sword/sheid, bows, etc.  So it seems like unless you're the Keeper/first then you don't even seem to utilize mage powers.


As far as the Beyond/Fade goes, Tamlen mentions that Paival talked about spirits from the Beyond being jealous of mortals so that they possessed dead bodies in areas that are "sethenaron" or "places of waking dreams".  Being that the origin seems to take place in the Brecilian Forest, the Dalish there had likely encountered walking dead before, since the Veil was thin there.  But even then, I don't remember him talking about the living being possessed.  It really does seem like something the Dalish in particular don't fear.

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...
I love this conversation.    It surprised me, after playing other origins, how very warm Alistair is there when he says what a beautiful ritual it is.  Yup, that's it. DEF and Alistair were just meant to be from the very very beginning!

I wonder if they put this and Leliana's song and Zevran's fondness for his Dalish mother in so that there is something which cracks the inherent mistrust of outsiders in a Dalish PC for all the LIs.  For Morrigan it would no doubt be the fact that she talks about the old ways and the old magic.  My Dalish mage is a shapeshifter, so she and Morrigan will get along grand, and no doubt my PC will see her as a mentor.

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

But you don't see anyone else with staffs and what not either - it's no weapons, sword/sheid, bows, etc.  So it seems like unless you're the Keeper/first then you don't even seem to utilize mage powers.

I have a different idea of mages, I guess.  Staff is a powerful weapon but I usually play my mages as battle-mages as well.  There's no reason you can't be hacking something to bits one minute and frying it with a fireball the next (probably vice versa, LOL).  If you look up at my first screenie, my PC is wielding daggers (Forgotten weapons mod).

As far as the Beyond/Fade goes, Tamlen mentions that Paival talked about spirits from the Beyond being jealous of mortals so that they possessed dead bodies in areas that are "sethenaron" or "places of waking dreams".  Being that the origin seems to take place in the Brecilian Forest, the Dalish there had likely encountered walking dead before, since the Veil was thin there.  But even then, I don't remember him talking about the living being possessed.  It really does seem like something the Dalish in particular don't fear.

Tamlen seems shocked to actually see walking dead, but yes I imagine the stories would be there.

[Addai]

Vegielamb wrote...

I know folks think the Dalish boring, but seriously, they are the most fun to actually play because they just don't care about civilization.

I don't typically play my Dalish that way, though.  Being a keeper's daughter, you are the descendant of the Arlathan nobility, and I conceive of them as having an inherent dignity and pride from that.  Also the Dalish cultivate their culture and education very deliberately.  I don't see them as uncivilized at all.  They are forced to the fringes, first because humans sicken them and then because of the hostile history, so their gypsy lifestyle is one of necessity rather than choice.

Do others play their Dalish as I do, that they realize they really aren't Dalish anymore?  They are living among humans and marked by the taint, so you can really never go back.  The Keeper tells you that you are Dalish no matter where you go, but that seems to have little meaning in the life you are thrust into by the Joining.  It is why my DEF was able to fall for Alistair.  The Grey Wardens are her clan, and he her clanmate.  It is also why the small expressions by your NPC companions of interest in your culture mean so much.  I can't stand Leliana, but her song always gets me.

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

Vegielamb wrote...

I know folks think the Dalish boring, but seriously, they are the most fun to actually play because they just don't care about civilization.

I don't typically play my Dalish that way, though.  Being a keeper's daughter, you are the descendant of the Arlathan nobility, and I conceive of them as having an inherent dignity and pride from that.  Also the Dalish cultivate their culture and education very deliberately.  I don't see them as uncivilized at all.  They are forced to the fringes, first because humans sicken them and then because of the hostile history, so their gypsy lifestyle is one of necessity rather than choice.

Do others play their Dalish as I do, that they realize they really aren't Dalish anymore?  They are living among humans and marked by the taint, so you can really never go back.  The Keeper tells you that you are Dalish no matter where you go, but that seems to have little meaning in the life you are thrust into by the Joining.  It is why my DEF was able to fall for Alistair.  The Grey Wardens are her clan, and he her clanmate.  It is also why the small expressions by your NPC companions of interest in your culture mean so much.  I can't stand Leliana, but her song always gets me.

This is exactly what I'm exploring in my fic, as I realized on her second playthrough all the things that would be changing for her.  The loss of her original clan and being surrounded by humans and elves whose culture is so different from her own would leave her feeling very off-balance and alone.  They don't even speak the same language that she does. A nd then there's buildings and different food, etc.

Even having to put on heavier armor so that she didn't get slaughtered in the Deep Roads, or trading her Dalish blades for others was a real trial for her.  And she resisted the relationship with Alistair but eventually realized that he was clan and that she was something more than just Dalish but a Warden as well, and that she could never go back to being just Dalish ever again.

It makes their stories really tragic, doesn't it?  I think that's why I love her so much.  <3

[HarlequinDream]

Addai67 wrote...

Vegielamb wrote...

I know folks think the Dalish boring, but seriously, they are the most fun to actually play because they just don't care about civilization.

I don't typically play my Dalish that way, though.  Being a keeper's daughter, you are the descendant of the Arlathan nobility, and I conceive of them as having an inherent dignity and pride from that.  Also the Dalish cultivate their culture and education very deliberately.  I don't see them as uncivilized at all.  They are forced to the fringes, first because humans sicken them and then because of the hostile history, so their gypsy lifestyle is one of necessity rather than choice.

Do others play their Dalish as I do, that they realize they really aren't Dalish anymore?  They are living among humans and marked by the taint, so you can really never go back.  The Keeper tells you that you are Dalish no matter where you go, but that seems to have little meaning in the life you are thrust into by the Joining.  It is why my DEF was able to fall for Alistair.  The Grey Wardens are her clan, and he her clanmate.  It is also why the small expressions by your NPC companions of interest in your culture mean so much.  I can't stand Leliana, but her song always gets me.

With my Dalish, she always considers herself a Dalish Warden, but her "clan" has changed.

Then again, she was almost eager to leave with Duncan because once Tamlen was gone, she felt it was her fault and that because of that and her illness, the rest of the clan would see her as an outsider anyway. So she sort of adopted the Gray Wardens (who are, to some degree, outsiders and wanderers like the Dalish) as her new clan.

[Vegielamb]

Do you have an ethnic model you think fits?  I have heard the Dalish compared to Native Americans, but some of the gods remind me of Norse.  Like Fen'Harel-->Fenris/ Loki. 

I think the pantheon looks more Celtic than Norse. For one, the "focus" of the gods (Vengence, secrets, protector, ect) strikes me as less in keeping with the Norse themes than Celtics ones. Only Sylaise and Elgar'nan really struck me as Norse inspired. Barghests, Spectral Hounds, Hell Hounds and other big bad dog-things are pretty common myth in Europe. Falon'Din could be about three or four different celtic gods (Arawn, Cernunnos, ect). Dirthamen and the whole raven bit screams Bran.

[Addai]

Vegielamb wrote...

Do you have an ethnic model you think fits?  I have heard the Dalish compared to Native Americans, but some of the gods remind me of Norse.  Like Fen'Harel-->Fenris/ Loki. 

I think the pantheon looks more Celtic than Norse. For one, the "focus" of the gods (Vengence, secrets, protector, ect) strikes me as less in keeping with the Norse themes than Celtics ones. Only Sylaise and Elgar'nan really struck me as Norse inspired. Barghests, Spectral Hounds, Hell Hounds and other big bad dog-things are pretty common myth in Europe. Falon'Din could be about three or four different celtic gods (Arawn, Cernunnos, ect). Dirthamen and the whole raven bit screams Bran.

It does make sense for them to be Celtic, since the setting of Ferelden seems to be Scottish/ old British.  Then again, Norse and Celtic mythology was fused in Anglo-Saxon life and Tolkien also used a fusion of Viking and Celtic elements.  Ravens are also important in Norse mythology. The story of Dirthamen talking to the ravens is reminiscent of the Hrafnsmal.

[Rhys Cordelle]

Don't you grow up without the knowledge that you're a keepers child though?