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Dwarfs and Swords???? Why???


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#51
Spawn305

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exerci wrote...

Spawn305 wrote...

Orofino wrote...

I would think that Dwarves would develop axes and hammers as utilitarian tools. Swords are just better for killing people. There is a reason throughout history swords in various shapes and sizes are prevalent as weapons.

One would think that dwarves, being the smart little buggers that they are would always want to be using the best tool for the job. That means picks and hammers for mining, swords for killing.

seems pretty simple to me.



So a sword can cut through plate armor?

I know an axe could chip out a nice chunk of durability from that plate armor in one hit. hell even a hammer could put a nice dent.

Put it this way. Get in a tin trash can. Let me beat on the side with a sword. not goin do much damage to you unless i can gut the tin away.

Now let me take an axe and let me beat the side. After 1 hit that trash can in going to be dented and will most likely do some damage to you.

Same goes with a hammer.


You're right, yet wrong. True, against heavily armored foes, an axe/hammer would be great. (Axes are unlikely to be used in mines, really. No forests inside, and the dwarves in Dragon Age don't EVER go outside, as evidenced by Oghren's reaction "SO MUCH SKYYYYY") But... Looking at the darkspawn in general for a second, who are pretty much the only natural enemies of the dwarves, it seem, the darkspawn are generally not very heavy armored. And pretty much none of them bother wearing helmets. Hence they've got perfectly good unarmored parts to attack, which makes a sword perfect, because you don't have to hit properly with a sword to hurt someone. Swords are lighter, hence faster, and do a pretty constant amount of damage, no matter how hard you strike (unless you're aiming to cut them in half. But notice that a quick swipe across an unguarded stomach would pretty much result in someone bleeding to death within a few seconds.)

Also, someone mentioned spears + shields as being prevalent in medieval militaries... Newsflash, effectiveness is not the reason. The main reason was, quite simply, that it was the cheapest possible weapon to make (mostly wood with a metal tip) and that it required nearly no smithing skill to make, meaning that instead of having to seek out Bob, the master smith, you could instead just have Bob, John and Rick, the apprentice smiths, do the work. Faster, easier, and required no real skills to manufacture. That was the reason for the spear's prevalence.

Only the actual rich soldiers could afford actual swords. (Axes were cheaper)

In the context of the game, I assume metals are fairly prevalent materials in the dwarven caverns, so the soldiers there would probably have an easier time affording swords... and considering that none of the darkspawn seem to be wearing big suits of platemail, I think it's safe to assume that the sword is the best weapon for the task.


hmm i didn't look at it that way. Good thinking about the darkspawn not really useing armor.

#52
Spawn305

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

Spawn305 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Spawn305 wrote...



"But this isn't DnD, and Dwarves in this game are not based entirely around mining."


So
what is it based on? Going to the surfaceand exploring?or  being exiled
from the dwarf community because they stepped foot outside the
tunnels? Because that’s the way it works in this game.

Once again I don't care that they can USE a sword just the fact that almost every dwarf uses a sword pisses me off. 


Politics, surviving against the darkspawn, and honour for most, simple survival for the underclass (who would most likely use daggers and other concealable weapons more than big warhammers).  Swords are typically associated with nobility, hence the political elite dwarves who pride themselves on appearing honorable (even when they're not) and so would probably like to use them.

Spawn305 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Spawn305 wrote...

Orofino wrote...

I would think that Dwarves would develop axes and hammers as utilitarian tools. Swords are just better for killing people. There is a reason throughout history swords in various shapes and sizes are prevalent as weapons.

One would think that dwarves, being the smart little buggers that they are would always want to be using the best tool for the job. That means picks and hammers for mining, swords for killing.

seems pretty simple to me.



So a sword can cut through plate armor?

I know an axe could chip out a nice chunk of durability from that plate armor in one hit. hell even a hammer could put a nice dent.

Put it this way. Get in a tin trash can. Let me beat on the side with a sword. not goin do much damage to you unless i can gut the tin away.

Now let me take an axe and let me beat the side. After 1 hit that trash can in going to be dented and will most likely do some damage to you.

Same goes with a hammer.


Spear and shield is better.  There is a reason why most professional armies in history prefered to use them.




So I guess in the history oh man they had magic? dide the yanks bring ice bolts to the new world with them? Don't rationalize this with real life events. I’m also sure the red coats were not running around in Plate armor with a gun.


 
ALSO: Knights in the medieval times used swords because they were lighter then hammer/axes and such. And when you’re in a 80+lbs of armor a light weapon out weights the benefit from a heavy weapon.

SIDE NOTE: they took the normal racial abilites from DnD dwarfs but left out the axe and mace perfered weapons

EDIT: i had a GM once that wouldnt allow me to use a sword on a dwarf rune caster. best caracter iv ever made.
A Dwarf Rune mage that did all his magic based off tatoos:)


You brought in real world mechanics, so I refuted you with real world mechanics, do not get aggressive with me.  Swords can also stab people in vulnerable spots such as where the armour joins together, and halberds were typically equipped with hooks that could be used to pry off armour.

Again, DnD is not applicable here as this isn't DnD, games do not have to be identical.



Sorry to burst your bubble here man. But you were the one brining in Real life events not me. I corrected you on your real life events.

I dont care if your agree with me or not. This this issue pisses me off to no end. Nothing u say will convince me other wise. just like how no matter what i say to you, you will always think your right. So..


You said...

"So a sword can cut through plate armor?

I know an axe could
chip out a nice chunk of durability from that plate armor in one hit.
hell even a hammer could put a nice dent.

Put it this way. Get
in a tin trash can. Let me beat on the side with a sword. not goin do
much damage to you unless i can gut the tin away.

Now let me
take an axe and let me beat the side. After 1 hit that trash can in
going to be dented and will most likely do some damage to you.

Same goes with a hammer."

It's right up there, the post I was responding to when 'I' apparently brought in real life mechanics, but I somehow I get the feeling you know this and are just lying.  As for respecting each other's opinions, you have been aggressive and nasty throughout the thread, but what more do we expect from a troll, so I say nee to you.

Nee!


Ok sorry about the trash can. I didnt know they didnt have trash cans in this game. replace trash can with plate armor and now its back into the fanistly land.

#53
exerci

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

Spear and shield is better.  There is a reason why most professional armies in history prefered to use them.


Not to burst your bubble, but the main reason why most armies preferred spears was a simple matter of economy. All weapons degrade, and replacing spears = teh easy, replacing swords = teh suck.

#54
D_Strider

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Swords were very effective against even plate-wearers. As impressive as such armor is, the joints were always vulnerable to a good stab, even with a chain mail shirt underneath. Don't underestimate the power of relative speed, and the danger of wielding a heavy and slow weapon. That 2H Maul is impressive, but one missed swing would leave you overbalanced and very, very, very vulnerable.



In the context of this game, swords make more sense than axes (no trees, but plenty of combat). The dwarves have been fighting darkspawn in the confines of their caverns for several generations. I rather doubt that they would scorn any martial weapon, especially one that is good in close quarters.

#55
th3warr1or

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Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Oh no, another fanboy who considers Lord of the Rings to be the fantasy bible.


Because it is.

#56
FlintlockJazz

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Spawn305 wrote...

Ok sorry about the trash can. I didnt know they didnt have trash cans in this game. replace trash can with plate armor and now its back into the fanistly land.


You're still using real world mechanics either way, but doesn't matter because you have yet to bring me a...shrubbery!


Nee!

#57
exerci

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th3warr1or wrote...

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Oh no, another fanboy who considers Lord of the Rings to be the fantasy bible.


Because it is.


In which case, awesome, the sword-ists win. In the hobbit, the only dwarf carrying a named weapon is Thorin who carries a sword.

#58
danien.grey

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Okay, since this topic is going moribund fast, I'll toss in my two cents to remind everyone to please clean up your quotes.  We don't need pages and pages of quotes detailing the entire conversation from its absolute beginning. :lol:

Select the last actual post you want to quote and delete all that junk inbetween that and the "____ said".  We've been reading and we know what you're talking about.

My mousewheel thanks you. <3

#59
exerci

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danien.grey wrote...

Okay, since this topic is going moribund fast, I'll toss in my two cents to remind everyone to please clean up your quotes.  We don't need pages and pages of quotes detailing the entire conversation from its absolute beginning. :lol:

Select the last actual post you want to quote and delete all that junk inbetween that and the "____ said".  We've been reading and we know what you're talking about.

My mousewheel thanks you. <3


And yeah, I wanted to quote a person at one point, but then I realised that I'd have around one and a half page of pure quotation then. I deleted everything but the thing I actually wanted :P

#60
BoomWav

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*spoiler*



You're exiled. Your father won't give you the familly relic. You're not considered part of the familly anymore, that's why they strip you of all your items.



**end-spoiler**



As for the dwarf having sword, I'd say it's pretty simple. The dwarf never go up. They use picks to mine, hammer to forge and sword to fight the darkspawn in the tunnels. The Soldier Caste don't care about mining or smitting, all they do is patrol the border and make expedition.



Sword could have been brought with surface trading and then copied by the dwarves. Dwarf have no use for axes but could be brought for the same reason. I think the dwarf berserkers use axes.. I'm not sure. Anyway..you should try to stay away from the stereotypes.

#61
Spawn305

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I'm at work and dont have time to go back and delete what i dont want :( To many people walking around.

#62
Auraad

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Ok, let's go at this from a different direction: an axe or a hammer is way more *stylish* for dwarfes - here you go! :)

#63
allothernamesweretaken

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Spawn305 wrote...

I'm at work and dont have time to go back and delete what i dont want :( To many people walking around.



Maybe you should be working at work.

#64
Trelow-LMG

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allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Spawn305 wrote...

I'm at work and dont have time to go back and delete what i dont want :( To many people walking around.



Maybe you should be working at work.


BLASPHEMY!

#65
Spawn305

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Trelow-LMG wrote...

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Spawn305 wrote...

I'm at work and dont have time to go back and delete what i dont want :( To many people walking around.



Maybe you should be working at work.


BLASPHEMY!


Working at work isn't the cool thing to do any more :P I would love to do work at work. Just nothing going on, on my project. Contractor took the day off :(

#66
Trelow-LMG

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Spawn305 wrote...

Trelow-LMG wrote...

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Spawn305 wrote...

I'm at work and dont have time to go back and delete what i dont want :( To many people walking around.



Maybe you should be working at work.


BLASPHEMY!


Working at work isn't the cool thing to do any more :P I would love to do work at work. Just nothing going on, on my project. Contractor took the day off :(


I'm at work also, just delegating the actual "work" to others. :whistle:

#67
EpicSagace

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I dont understand why dwarf should use more axe them human... If you say every dwarf are lumberjack that need to cut wood to make fire... then we could say the same thing of human and also human build house made of wood, not dwarf since they live underground like u said. So axe is more a human weapon that dwarven. The only use in human world for sword is to fight. It is the same thing for dwarf. It's not because every dwarf u know are miner and lumberjack that they should use hammer and axe. The every human are lumberjack and farmer so they should use axe of pitchfork. That is ur logic.

#68
Spawn305

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"I'm at work also, just delegating the actual "work" to others. "



Yeah my inspectors are on the job but there is nothing going on! One of them is a dwarf with a HAMMER!

#69
Malastare-

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Okay, in general:

You're basing much of your opinion on lore that is absolutely not connected to this game.  Insisting that DA:O follow DnD traditions (which are based in Tolkien, like it or not) is nonsensical.  All you're saying is "I want it this way".  Well, that's not the way it is.  DA explains the way it is.  

Without reverting to DnD silliness, I can't think of any good reason why dwarfs wouldn't use swords, except for the fact that long swords or two-handed swords wouldn't be balanced correctly for their shorter arms.  However, the armor plate wouldn't shrink for their smaller frames, either, so some amount of disbelief must be suspended and we are forced to imagine that a long sword weilded by a dwarf is just as tailored for them as a set of split mail would be.

Beyond that, swords are a very effective and very primal form of weapon.  It is the immediate militaristic extension (literally) of the knife and I'd have trouble imagining any society that wouldn't develop swords as weapons.  Now, being that dwarfs live primarily  underground, it should seem reasonable that hammers and pick-axes are common, and easy to believe that many dwarfs might find that familiarity makes them into decent weapons.  However, there's no reason to think they would be used in exclusion of swords. 

In reality, hammers and mauls were exceedingly rare in battles.  While they were effective in some situations, their drawbacks were severe and all it took was a single mistake to render the wielder all but helpless.   Axes (ignoring polearms like pikes and halberds) were more common, but still used more as weapons of convenience than excellence.  Nearly everyone had an axe of some sort, and it was better than the alternatives. Swords are more forgiving and versatile than either.

Next, you seem to be under the (common) misconception that heavy armor is a common thing that most warriors would have.  Plate is exceedingly expensive and both in DA and real history, the bulk of the people fighting used much lighter armor, usually simple leather armor.  The need to deal with heavily armed foes was just not a common problem.  Against lightly armored enemies, axes, mauls, maces, and hammers don't give you any advantages over a sword, and often leave you with more disadvantages.

Finally, the dwarfs in DA are not a secluded race that live underground only to pop up every once in a while to fight against the humans.  They have been fighting a long, constant war against the darkspawn, who, as you have already been told, are not heavily armored.  If we are allow ourselves to step away from DnD, then it seems perfectly reasonable to believe (and almost unreasonable to not believe) that dwarfs would use swords as a primary weapon for trained fighters.

Now, I wrote that all out despite this:

Spawn305 wrote...

I dont care if your agree with me or not. This this issue pisses me off to no end. Nothing u say will convince me other wise. just like how no matter what i say to you, you will always think your right. So..

This is an exceedingly immature comment to make.  You're basically telling everyone that you're not even looking for the truth or any understanding at all.  You just want to shout whatever is on your mind and ignore anyone else, even if they have knowledge which might help you better understand the topic at hand.

#70
Guest_Crawling_Chaos_*

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@OP:

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

There are more than swords you TROLL.

GTFO

#71
Spawn305

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All i was saying was it pisses me off that its not like DnD. thats all i said. So i dont give a **** if you like it or not. I dont care if your agree or dissagree.

#72
Spawn305

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Crawling_Chaos wrote...

@OP:

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

There are more than swords you TROLL.

GTFO



Once again i never said there wasnt any thing other then swords just that i have yet to see them and i dont like dwarfs useing swords due to my DnD back ground. So.. your post of a totle of  8 words is more of a trolling post then any of my posts that i have made since joining the forums yesterday.

#73
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Spawn305 wrote...

All i was saying was it pisses me off that its not like DnD. thats all i said. So i dont give a **** if you like it or not. I dont care if your agree or dissagree.


Woops a game that isn't DnD isn't like DnD.

Go figure.

#74
Shplane

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Good job being incredibly stupid op.

#75
Spawn305

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Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Spawn305 wrote...

All i was saying was it pisses me off that its not like DnD. thats all i said. So i dont give a **** if you like it or not. I dont care if your agree or dissagree.


Woops a game that isn't DnD isn't like DnD.

Go figure.



Your so cute with your one liners. i just want to pinch them cute cheeks