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[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Btw, I lol´d hard when Eamon told that the Orlaisian troops will come. Loghain tried to kill all wardens to avoid that, and now he just accepts that?! Great......

He doesn't have much choice at that point.

Yeah, your PC doesn't have a choice to say "wtf, send them back," either, which is what my PC was thinking.

[Suron]

Tirigon wrote...

So I wonder.. I am currently playing my City Elf and I´m close to the Landsmeet, and I´m not sure whether Alistair or Anora should rule. I tried making them marry, but Alistair refused.

The way I RP my elf she is not interested in human politics, and she hates all nobles due to her experiences with Vaughan. As this includes Alistair she can´t choose based on personal feelings but on what is best for the elves. Anora promises to improve the situation for them, and she has a point that she is stronger than Alistair. However, Alistair would be easier to influence, while I don´t know whether Anora is trustworthy or whether she will betray the elves once she has power.

So whom do you think should I choose?  (Note that I plan to recruit Loghain)

if that's how you RP your CE then the choice is obvious isn't it?

Anora -IS- Queen now.  The very type of Noble your elf "hates"

Alistair -IS NOT- a Noble.  He's a bastard son of a dead king.  And ONLY in line for the throne because Cailan was killed.  He wasn't raised as a Noble.  He doesn't have the desires of a noble.  He really doesn't even want to -BE- a noble.

so, again if that's how you RP your CE, that being the case...how is the choice hard at all?

[Costin_Razvan]

Alistair IS a noble, by the fact he was the son of Maric, recognized or not.

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Alistair IS a noble, by the fact he was the son of Maric, recognized or not.

Actually no. Not recognized he is simply the son of a servant girl. On the other hand, once he becomes King he also becomes a nobleman.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 22 mai 2010 - 07:43 .

[Xandurpein]

It's even more blurred by the fact that if the Landsmeet recognizes Alistair as Maric's son, they are in effect according him status as legitimate heir and recognized bastard son of the King.

Alistair is also raised in the household of Arl Eamon and even if he doesn't believe himself to be a nobleman, he is raised to have a very traditional view of what a nobleman should be.

Anora on the other hand is raised as a noblewoman, but her father is born a peasant and Anora probably has a lot less respect for tradition because of that. Arguably her interest in economic progress and prosperity is a very atypical view for someone of the nobility, possibly a result of her family's peasant background.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 22 mai 2010 - 07:57 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You line it up very well Xandur. I think it should also be remembered that Anora's mother was also a peasant ( I think )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 22 mai 2010 - 07:59 .

[Sarah1281]

Just like Loghain was a farmboy turned Teyrn, Anora's mother was a cabinet-maker's daughter turned Teyrna. Was he married when he got the title? I can't imagine marrying her would fly if he weren't.

[Xandurpein]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Just like Loghain was a farmboy turned Teyrn, Anora's mother was a cabinet-maker's daughter turned Teyrna. Was he married when he got the title? I can't imagine marrying her would fly if he weren't.

As far as I know Loghain married after he was made nobleman, if not Teyrn. In the Calling Loghain is still in love with Rowan and even has a fling with her. He only married his wife after Rowan and after the Battle of River Dane, which is what cemented his fame. My guess is that no one could tell Loghain who to marry or not, as long as she was also willing...

Your point about her being the daughter of a cabinet maker is interesting though. Anora's interest in trade, education and proseprity is typical of someone brought up with a merchant class background, even more than a farmer's background. Maybe she got that from her mother.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 22 mai 2010 - 08:20 .

[sylvanaerie]

Xandurpein wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Just like Loghain was a farmboy turned Teyrn, Anora's mother was a cabinet-maker's daughter turned Teyrna. Was he married when he got the title? I can't imagine marrying her would fly if he weren't.

As far as I know Loghain married after he was made nobleman, if not Teyrn. In the Calling Loghain is still in love with Rowan and even has a fling with her. He only married his wife after Rowan and after the Battle of River Dane, which is what cemented his fame. My guess is that no one could tell Loghain who to marry or not, as long as she was also willing...

Your point about her being the daughter of a cabinet maker is interesting though. Anora's interest in trade, education and proseprity is typical of someone brought up with a merchant class background, even more than a farmer's background. Maybe she got that from her mother.

She is well educated, a good administrator and she spent a very lonely childhood, going off on her own in the woods and eschewing friends to spend time with her mother (according to Loghain).  So she had little role models outside her parents to go by (no spoiled noble brats) aside from Cailan (and presumably Maric/Rowan).  When exactly did she start coming to Denerim? As a child? or a teenager?

[Costin_Razvan]

Well Loghain was away most of the time. Ruling Fereldan when Maric has no interest after Rowan's death.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...
Your point about her being the daughter of a cabinet maker is interesting though. Anora's interest in trade, education and proseprity is typical of someone brought up with a merchant class background, even more than a farmer's background. Maybe she got that from her mother.

According to Eamon, Anora has her mother's looks, her father's brains and the best education money can buy.

Anora is acting like a "Middle class Bourgeois Monarch" so to speak. Which is why I think she is a great ruler. Ferelden needs a strong middle class to cement and strengthen its pseudo-liberal system (by that I mean Ferelden's nobility has less power than say in Orlais).

If Britain's rise is to be taken as an example, I see Anora's reforms as potentially what could make Ferelden a major power and perhaps even a hegemonic power in the future.
The rise of modern Europe was no doubt largely due to the rise of the middle class.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Btw, I lol´d hard when
Eamon told that the Orlaisian troops will come. Loghain tried to kill
all wardens to avoid that, and now he just accepts that?! Great......

He
doesn't have much choice at that point.
I think that Eamon was
the one who was trying to orchestrate Eamon's marriage to Celene.

Yea but still. He could at least have said something - after all I recruited him and made Anora queen, shouldn´t that give him reason to believe I might agree that we don´t need Orlais?

Sarah1281 wrote...
Five, we have no reason to believe that Eamon is an idiot.

Oh YES we have.

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Five, we have no reason to believe that Eamon is an idiot.

Oh YES we have.

Such as? Keep in mind that disagreeing with his taste in women and what Isolde does while he's in a coma don't count.

[Tirigon]

Suron wrote...


if that's how you RP your CE then the choice is obvious isn't it?

Anora -IS- Queen now.  The very type of Noble your elf "hates"

Alistair -IS NOT- a Noble.  He's a bastard son of a dead king.  And ONLY in line for the throne because Cailan was killed.  He wasn't raised as a Noble.  He doesn't have the desires of a noble.  He really doesn't even want to -BE- a noble.

so, again if that's how you RP your CE, that being the case...how is the choice hard at all?

Well I think Alistair is a noble, too, and he DEFINITELY will be one if he´s king.


However, the more important question is who´s better for the elves.

[Sarah1281]

Well I think Alistair is a noble, too, and he DEFINITELY will be one if he´s king.

Ferelden law/tradition says he isn't, though, for being unrecognized and a bastard no matter how stupid that might or might not be.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Such as? Keep in mind that disagreeing with his taste in women and what Isolde does while he's in a coma don't count.

Hmm...... let me think... What about putting someone who doesn´t want that forward as new king when there is a Warden who would be perfect to rule?

Or the entire Landsmeet thing, when assassinating Loghain would have been so much easier?

Or his ridiculous behaviour and sh!ttalk about Fereldan traditions? I think in this point Loghain is definitely right: Eamon is just a power-hungry bastard who wants to have Alistair as his puppet king.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think following the law of the land and not just killing everyone because you want power makes him an idiot. It just makes him the guy who doesn't want to deal with an impossible coup and a leader no one will support when there's a Blight. And he only puts up Alistair instead of going himself because he thinks the nobles will go with the guy with no claim but royal blood over the girl with no claim and who married royalty.



And, you know, even if it were doable to put your Warden on the throne nd wouldn't just lead to more civil war you couldn't call a Landsmeet to do that because you couldn't have a better claim and since you never mention it it probably never occurs to Eamon. I mean, do you ever even express an interest?



I still don't think that's proof of idiocy, though.

[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well Loghain was away most of the time. Ruling Fereldan when Maric has no interest after Rowan's death.

Is this in the Calling or something? Where does it say this?

[HarlequinDream]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Such as? Keep in mind that disagreeing with his taste in women and what Isolde does while he's in a coma don't count.

Hmm...... let me think... What about putting someone who doesn´t want that forward as new king when there is a Warden who would be perfect to rule?

Or the entire Landsmeet thing, when assassinating Loghain would have been so much easier?

Or his ridiculous behaviour and sh!ttalk about Fereldan traditions? I think in this point Loghain is definitely right: Eamon is just a power-hungry bastard who wants to have Alistair as his puppet king.

Now, I think Eamon wants a LOT of say in how Ferelden is run. But he isn't an idiot.

The PC Warden never has a claim to the throne. Not without marriage to Alistair or Anora. Even a Cousland has no legitimate claim to the throne.

The Landsmeet was primarily to stop a civil war. If the nobles agree on who's right and who's wrong and Loghain surrenders, the country can repair. If he's assassinated, you'll have probably EVERY noble engaging in a war to take the throne.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...


Is this in the Calling or something? Where does it say this?

No book spoilers please I just bought themB)

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

phaonica wrote...


Is this in the Calling or something? Where does it say this?

No book spoilers please I just bought themB)

Ah, my bad! I've pretty much stopped trying to avoid spoilers myself, hanging around these boards. But no worries.

[Xandurpein]

HarlequinDream wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Such as? Keep in mind that disagreeing with his taste in women and what Isolde does while he's in a coma don't count.

Hmm...... let me think... What about putting someone who doesn´t want that forward as new king when there is a Warden who would be perfect to rule?

Or the entire Landsmeet thing, when assassinating Loghain would have been so much easier?

Or his ridiculous behaviour and sh!ttalk about Fereldan traditions? I think in this point Loghain is definitely right: Eamon is just a power-hungry bastard who wants to have Alistair as his puppet king.

Now, I think Eamon wants a LOT of say in how Ferelden is run. But he isn't an idiot.

The PC Warden never has a claim to the throne. Not without marriage to Alistair or Anora. Even a Cousland has no legitimate claim to the throne.

The Landsmeet was primarily to stop a civil war. If the nobles agree on who's right and who's wrong and Loghain surrenders, the country can repair. If he's assassinated, you'll have probably EVERY noble engaging in a war to take the throne.

It's been discussed before, but really no one has a legitimate claim to the throne. It's all a matter of politics, and politics means getting the majority of the Landsmeet agree with a decision.

I think that the only way the situation at the Landsmeet makes any sense if you see it as two major factions (once Loghain is defeated). The traditionalists, led by Arl Eamon, who wants the Landsmeet to accord Alistair the status as legitimate heir and preserve the Therin bloodline, and the Queens supporters. The player has sufficient power, because of his/her fame, be the one who can tip the scales between these two factions, but cannot push a claim to the throne on their own.

[HarlequinDream]

Xandu, right.



There's really no one "right" to claim the throne, but the Warden... can't really make a case for themselves at all. There's at least, like you said, the factions of the Landsmeet that can be reasoned with to accept one or the other (or both) because the Warden is liked enough to tip the scales, but the Warden definitely doesn't have the authority to promote themselves for the post.

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

Or the entire Landsmeet thing, when assassinating Loghain would have been so much easier?

Assassinating Loghain might possibly silence the Loghain supporters, or it might not. That he is defeated at the Landsmeet means that his defeat is legitimized in a way that effectivly ends the civil war. And there would still be need of a Landsmeet to decide who the next monarch should be. Even if a Landsmeet can be convened to name the next monarch, the risk of civil war is still a possibility with disgruntled Loghain supporters. Remeber that unless the player can present his/her evidence at the Landsmeet, the majority of the nobles will support Loghain.

[ObserverStatus]

Xandurpein wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Such as? Keep in mind that disagreeing with his taste in women and what Isolde does while he's in a coma don't count.

Hmm...... let me think... What about putting someone who doesn´t want that forward as new king when there is a Warden who would be perfect to rule?

Or the entire Landsmeet thing, when assassinating Loghain would have been so much easier?

Or his ridiculous behaviour and sh!ttalk about Fereldan traditions? I think in this point Loghain is definitely right: Eamon is just a power-hungry bastard who wants to have Alistair as his puppet king.

Now, I think Eamon wants a LOT of say in how Ferelden is run. But he isn't an idiot.

The PC Warden never has a claim to the throne. Not without marriage to Alistair or Anora. Even a Cousland has no legitimate claim to the throne.

The Landsmeet was primarily to stop a civil war. If the nobles agree on who's right and who's wrong and Loghain surrenders, the country can repair. If he's assassinated, you'll have probably EVERY noble engaging in a war to take the throne.

It's been discussed before, but really no one has a legitimate claim to the throne. It's all a matter of politics, and politics means getting the majority of the Landsmeet agree with a decision.

I think that the only way the situation at the Landsmeet makes any sense if you see it as two major factions (once Loghain is defeated). The traditionalists, led by Arl Eamon, who wants the Landsmeet to accord Alistair the status as legitimate heir and preserve the Therin bloodline, and the Queens supporters. The player has sufficient power, because of his/her fame, be the one who can tip the scales between these two factions, but cannot push a claim to the throne on their own.

Isn't there an option for Male Human Nobles to marry Anora?