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[Giggles_Manically]

Robin Cousland my Human Noble just tromped the ending, he was a pure archer with Faldin's Reach and the ending was so easy. Sees a darkspawn kills a darkspawn!



Now onto Nightmare mode!

[tyboria]

I agree that the ending was very underwhelming, especially the fort drakon part with the random area design and bosses (shapechanger? conjurer?). It just felt poorly made, especially when compared to some other areas, like the deep roads.

[FBG_Loke]

relhart wrote...

The ending was way too easy imo, but it's not like it was a completely different formula than the rest of the game. Fighting Darkspawn with some companion interaction thrown in here and there, same exact thing as the rest of the game. It's also shorter than most of the other main questline areas so I don't understand how you can find it tedious and had no problem with every other area.  Seems to me you're just bored now that the story is essentially over, but that doesn't have anything to do with the game mechanics.

This may indeed have been it! Well said. No story left at this point, it was simply a matter of fighting through to what was now the obvious end game.

I do disagree slightly though in that I don't feel it was much like the rest of the game, yet alone "exactly." I think the other chapters had either a) a bigger variety of enemies from one battle to the next, or  more plot points between battles. So I think this chapter was much different than the others, which to me is a matter of game mechanics. But, as you are saying, had this battle been earlier, like say the early Ostagar battle, then I may have actually enjoyed it. By the time it did happen, I just wanted to get to the archdemon!

[bzombo]

FBG_Loke wrote...

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

I don't understand what you're complaining about. You fight darkspawn throughout the whole game, and all of a sudden "that's boring"?

I put it on easy and plowed through the ending so it's over. As to the question "that's boring?" Yes, it was. Very. There was zero variety except the Arch Demon itself. You fought some darkspawn throughout the game, yes. But never was it a series of repetitious battles six, seven, eight times in a row. If there could have perhaps been a better mix of foes, maybe it would have been interesting. But it wasn't. Each battle, in succession, was simply the same set of foes over and over and over again. This isn't Diablo, a game designed to simply fight one battle after another to gain loot. But that's exactly what the last chapter became. Only without the loot. Repetitious. A  horrendous, and lazy, end game effort by the writers IMHO.  And that's a shame because, up till then, this was just an awesome gaming experience. An effort marred by its ending. At least for me and, apparently, a few others.

i understand what you're saying, but the ARMY of darkspawn has descended upon denerim. don't you think it would be a little ridiculous if you only encountered 10-20 darkspawn out of a whole army? it's the final, climactic battle. you have to fight your way through the darkspawn ranks to get to the archdemon. to expect differently is more like reading a book and not playing a computer game. then you can just read about it or skip it and get to the ending, which is what it seems you wanted. bioware is more story-centered, but they're still going to make you earn the ending.

[FBG_Loke]

bzombo wrote...

to expect differently is more like reading a book and not playing a computer game. then you can just read about it or skip it and get to the ending, which is what it seems you wanted. bioware is more story-centered, but they're still going to make you earn the ending.

Not enjoying <> Not expecting. I was hoping it would be more plot driven rather than just a hack-n-slash. Maybe you need to find the hidden sewer entrance that leads to the secret stairway to the roof to avoid the horde. Something like that. That it wasn't an option wasn't totally surprising, just disappointing for me. That's just me though. I get some people liked the idea of having to fight their way through. Others didn't. But it isn't like it was the ONLY way to end the game.

[bzombo]

FBG_Loke wrote...

bzombo wrote...

to expect differently is more like reading a book and not playing a computer game. then you can just read about it or skip it and get to the ending, which is what it seems you wanted. bioware is more story-centered, but they're still going to make you earn the ending.

Not enjoying Not expecting. I was hoping it would be more plot driven rather than just a hack-n-slash. Maybe you need to find the hidden sewer entrance that leads to the secret stairway to the roof to avoid the horde. Something like that. That it wasn't an option wasn't totally surprising, just disappointing for me. That's just me though. I get some people liked the idea of having to fight their way through. Others didn't. But it isn't like it was the ONLY way to end the game.

i guess, but even in a story driven game, you have to have combat or else it's just a read along story. if you can always avoid fighting, especially at the end, it kind of kills any kind of difficulty.

[Vegielamb]

Elhanan wrote...
A wider range of critters does not always equate to tactical variety. DAO appears to have a wide array of tactical challenges while using lesser numbers of types. If one were to address every Darkspawn boss in the same way, they would also be squashed like grapes.

True, but D&D monster types have really different mechanics, which is why I mentioned monster types. The Darkspawn ceased to be tactically interesting early on in the game due to how many times you encounter them. Basically by end game, it's just flat and you're sick of seeing them. It feels like you're using the same basic tactics over and over and over... This could have been fixed with more clever enemies and some careful dungeon planning on the designer's part. There were few dungeons that made really good use of traps for instance (I *loved* the warehouse). Basically, a lot of dungeons felt and played too much alike. I really wish Bioware had used a clever monster type instead of “mindless orcs".

Elhanan wrote...
Have no idea what you mean here, as Stealth, Stealing, and Lockpicking all can aid the game experience. As the player of a number or Rogues, I can attest to this. And I have still to use Trap Making, Poisons, or other crafting skills that amny, many else here have mentioned in posts.

Oh come on: chests had crap in them, there was almost nothing worth stealing, and stealth didn't get any moments to shine. I didn't mention the others because they were *useful* in game. The former three really weren't; they just felt like tacked on obligations because it's rogue class. Basically they were point sinkholes that didn't justify their existence.

You mean the the same 4th ed that pushed me to quit making D&D aquistions?

Yeah, that 4th ed. Because regardless of how much it's hated on by the pen and paper crowd, it's perfect for *videogames*, where more traditional pen and paper editions fall apart due to technical limitations. In fact, I suspect that was the intent, especially with the license changes after 3rd ed.

As the prior posts seem to suggest that one did not use a Rogue much
differently than one would use a Warrior, I could see why one might come
to these false conclusions. But as with D&D, the Rogue is the
master of skills and being more involved in the game than the frequent
combats. And the Rogue can be built as a warrior if one wishes, as a
stealth spy, or some variant between them.

There's the problem: there's no real use for a stealth spy in this game. You correctly point out that rogues are more skill based, yet the game only really rewards combat skills in the dungeon. That's the main problem. Stealth is useless unless you sink lots of points into it and by that time, your party isn't too worried about hiding. How could Bioware have spiced things up? Try:

Lockpicking: allows you a story choice, such as choosing between fighting your way through an enemy mob to escape or picking the locked gate to get around them. How about access to dungeon areas that are unavailable without the skill?

Stealing: see lockpick. How about having to lift keys to areas? Or extra quests? I’m thinking the Thief series here.

Stealth: marginally useful if you have the full line, but this could have been an awesome skill if you could have used it to screw with enemies' minds (starting monster brawls) or other things. As it is, it just feels tacked on and unloved. Bioware could have taken some hints from Commando and Robin Hood: The Legend of Sherwood for this skill. How about planting false paths to send enemies on a wild goose chase?

Modifié par Vegielamb, 30 mai 2010 - 01:46 .

[FBG_Loke]

bzombo wrote...

i guess, but even in a story driven game, you have to have combat or else it's just a read along story. if you can always avoid fighting, especially at the end, it kind of kills any kind of difficulty.

I'm not saying avoid comabt altogether. But, let's say by finding the hidden sewer entrance, you fight a tough boss guy type battle (think Gaxkang or something) rather than a gigantic horde of more-of-the-same darkspawn. Maybe have a few spots where you had to fight a large group, with some tough "boss" type fights in between. That way it wouldn't have been the string of six or eight "more of the same" battles that ended up making up the entire final chapter. Maybe horde, boss type, horde, sneak past horde, boss type, mixing it up a bit. I think this is more along the lines of what I was expecting.

Don't get me wrong here. I understand some folks liked the horde battles and thought they fit in well with the story. It just didn't work for me and wasn't what I was expecting from the game play that led up to it. I would have preferred something different. It's just rare for me to end up thinking of the end game as a chore, especially with an RPG. But that was how this one felt.

[Behraam]

Single player RPGs are generally bad.

[Elhanan]

Vegielamb wrote...

True, but D&D monster types have really different mechanics, which is why I mentioned monster types. The Darkspawn ceased to be tactically interesting early on in the game due to how many times you encounter them. Basically by end game, it's just flat and you're sick of seeing them. It feels like you're using the same basic tactics over and over and over... This could have been fixed with more clever enemies and some careful dungeon planning on the designer's part. There were few dungeons that made really good use of traps for instance (I *loved* the warehouse). Basically, a lot of dungeons felt and played too much alike. I really wish Bioware had used a clever monster type instead of “mindless orcs".

To clarify, YOU are sick of seeing them. Personally, I found out quickly not to assume that any one critter was the same as another. Examples: Darkspawn archer in the Deep Trenches, Darkspawn mages met when defending the Alienage, etc. Maybe you used the same tactics each time and succeeded; I varied mine.

Oh come on: chests had crap in them, there was almost nothing worth stealing, and stealth didn't get any moments to shine. I didn't mention the others because they were *useful* in game. The former three really weren't; they just felt like tacked on obligations because it's rogue class. Basically they were point sinkholes that didn't justify their existence.

Funny; while I disliked seeing a single Deep mushroom in a locked container, I generally received XP for being able to open it. Not too shabby as an investment. As for Stealth, when being surrounded by groups in single runs within Denerim, being able to go *poof* and have them turn their backs to me was quite Shiny. And there are a few quests where Stealth was needed to gain them.

And again, your opinion vs others.

Yeah, that 4th ed. Because regardless of how much it's hated on by the pen and paper crowd, it's perfect for *videogames*, where more traditional pen and paper editions fall apart due to technical limitations. In fact, I suspect that was the intent, especially with the license changes after 3rd ed.

But this ain't one of them, as well as a MMO where 4th ed appears to reflect it's origins.

There's the problem: there's no real use for a stealth spy in this game. You correctly point out that rogues are more skill based, yet the game only really rewards combat skills in the dungeon. That's the main problem. Stealth is useless unless you sink lots of points into it and by that time, your party isn't too worried about hiding. How could Bioware have spiced things up? Try:

Lockpicking: allows you a story choice, such as choosing between fighting your way through an enemy mob to escape or picking the locked gate to get around them. How about access to dungeon areas that are unavailable without the skill?

Stealing: see lockpick. How about having to lift keys to areas? Or extra quests? I’m thinking the Thief series here.

Stealth: marginally useful if you have the full line, but this could have been an awesome skill if you could have used it to screw with enemies' minds (starting monster brawls) or other things. As it is, it just feels tacked on and unloved. Bioware could have taken some hints from Commando and Robin Hood: The Legend of Sherwood for this skill. How about planting false paths to send enemies on a wild goose chase?

Lockpicking: Human Noble origin seemingly misses a quarter of the estate if not taken. While nothing lost is required, it does compel me to make a Rogue just to see what is missed. Same with male vs female versions, as Agatha surprisingly has more depth if playing the Cousland daughter.

Stealing: currently bugged, but there are several listings for added equipment as well as keys that can be gained thru theft. However, taking keys off dead bodies is often faster. And if all 4 tiers is taken, one can steal in combat and loot afterwards, too.

Stealth: one estate in Denerim where the Warden can loot entirely w/o combat. Or not.

Options for these characters do exist, but may not be the other games you wish to play. As for myself, I have not payed for them or played them, while I have played this one steadily since installation and am still finding surprises (eg; Agatha story).

[Vegielamb]

Elhanan wrote...

Vegielamb wrote...
Oh come on: chests had crap in them, there was almost nothing worth stealing, and stealth didn't get any moments to shine. I didn't mention the others because they were *useful* in game. The former three really weren't; they just felt like tacked on obligations because it's rogue class. Basically they were point sinkholes that didn't justify their existence.

Funny; while I disliked seeing a single Deep mushroom in a locked container, I generally received XP for being able to open it. Not too shabby as an investment. As for Stealth, when being surrounded by groups in single runs within Denerim, being able to go *poof* and have them turn their backs to me was quite Shiny. And there are a few quests where Stealth was needed to gain them.

XP does not prevent Lockpicking/Stealing as used in DAO from being lame and boring. Even you admitted you didn't like what was in chests. It was obvious that not a lot of thought was put into these skills and it shows. Stealth was functional, but could have been a lot more useful than it was. Looking back on it, it feels shallow and under utilized.

The problem isn't how the mechanics work, the problem is bad DMing on Bioware's part. Most of the dungeons are pure vanilla (The Deep Roads were amazingly boring), and it makes me wish for dungeons with more spice.

Elhanan wrote... But this ain't one of them, as well as a MMO where 4th ed appears to reflect it's origins.

Um, yes this is a videogame. MMO? You think specific roles for a classes are purely an MMO feature?

What 4th ed does well is force each party member to declare a specific combat function in the party. These have always existed, but tend to get muddled up in videogame land, resulting in classes that feel just like another class. You should never have a base class that plays like another base class as it means you're being redundant. This is the problem with Rogues and Fighters in DAO: They have too much in common.

I would use said roles to determine what classes to include in the game and then *how* a PC class would try to solve a problem in the game. This would have given each class a more distinct feeling and really made good use of the classes. There should be some chances for each class to solve a dunegon based problem in a unique class-based way.

Elhanan wrote... Lockpicking: Human Noble origin seemingly misses a quarter of the estate if not taken. While nothing lost is required, it does compel me to make a Rogue just to see what is missed.Same with male vs female versions, as Agatha surprisingly has more depth if playing the Cousland daughter.

And when you picked these locks and had seen what you'd missed, did feel like you'd discovered something that matter or was it just tacked on junk that had no relevance to anything?

As for gender, this one area where Bioware did just fine. I was glad to see they made it relevant to the story.

Stealing: currently bugged, but there are several listings for added equipment as well as keys that can be gained thru theft. However, taking keys off dead bodies is often faster. And if all 4 tiers is taken, one can steal in combat and loot afterwards, too.

Yeah, that would be an issue (that killing is just faster). Actually, this is the problem with a lot of the dungeons. It would be nice for some challenges that don't involve applying the end of a pointy object to someone as the best way to get what you want in a dungeon. You *can* make a dungeon that requires creativity and forces you to look at all those other skills you have.

Stealth: one estate in Denerim where the Warden can loot entirely w/o combat. Or not.

Options for these characters do exist, but may not be the other games you wish to play. As for myself, I have not payed for them or played them, while I have played this one steadily since installation and am still finding surprises (eg; Agatha story).

I really think Bioware needs to consider spicing up some areas for certain classes. And yes, the estate was a nice touch, they just need more content like it. I'd happily trade some of the tedious dungeons for more specialized dungeons like that estate.

Modifié par Vegielamb, 01 juin 2010 - 11:49 .

[Vegielamb]

Behraam wrote...

Single player RPGs are generally bad.

In relation to pen and paper, yes. In relation to MMOs, no.

[Elhanan]

Vegielamb wrote..

XP does not prevent Lockpicking/Stealing as used in DAO from being lame and boring. Even you admitted you didn't like what was in chests. It was obvious that not a lot of thought was put into these skills and it shows. Stealth was functional, but could have been a lot more useful than it was. Looking back on it, it feels shallow and under utilized.

The problem isn't how the mechanics work, the problem is bad DMing on Bioware's part. Most of the dungeons are pure vanilla (The Deep Roads were amazingly boring), and it makes me wish for dungeons with more spice.

You seem to read things I did not write. I did not like a single mushroom being in a chest, but I did like finding Dragonbone chainmail and the like. And I did not find Lockpicking and Stealing boring at all. In fact, while hardly ever using Pickpocket in NWN, I enjoy the extras one can gain with Stealing, plus it is open to any class.

Elhanan wrote... But this ain't one of them, as well as a MMO where 4th ed appears to reflect it's origins.

Um, yes this is a videogame. MMO? You think specific roles for a classes are purely an MMO feature?

Since I have been playing FRPG since '75, I am familiar with class distinctions. But have yet to set foot on any MMO, though I have researched them.

What 4th ed does well is force each party member to declare a specific combat function in the party. These have always existed, but tend to get muddled up in videogame land, resulting in classes that feel just like another class. You should never have a base class that plays like another base class as it means you're being redundant. This is the problem with Rogues and Fighters in DAO: They have too much in common.

I would use said roles to determine what classes to include in the game and then *how* a PC class would try to solve a problem in the game. This would have given each class a more distinct feeling and really made good use of the classes. There should be some chances for each class to solve a dunegon based problem in a unique class-based way.

As mentioned earlier, one may play Rogue as a Warrior-Lite (which I do most often), but one may also delve into the deep Skill chest in other ways to be as sneaky as Zev, as poetic as Lily, or as distinctive as one wants to be. And AFAIK, making classes and races so exclusive may have created the need to make 2E and 3E AD&D blends in the first place.

And when you picked these locks and had seen what you'd missed, did feel like you'd discovered something that matter or was it just tacked on junk that had no relevance to anything?

As for gender, this one area where Bioware did just fine. I was glad to see they made it relevant to the story.

I 'felt' that my Rogue would start with more gold in the purse than my Warrior; a nice feeling indeed.

However, there is one Origin exclusive feature in the Dalish Elf Origin that makes Coersion required to gain a deeper insight to the charater backstory. Maybe this was for you, as it sure was not my cup of tea.

Stealing: currently bugged, but there are several listings for added equipment as well as keys that can be gained thru theft. However, taking keys off dead bodies is often faster. And if all 4 tiers is taken, one can steal in combat and loot afterwards, too.

Yeah, that would be an issue (that killing is just faster). Actually, this is the problem with a lot of the dungeons. It would be nice for some challenges that don't involve applying the end of a pointy object to someone as the best way to get what you want in a dungeon. You *can* make a dungeon that requires creativity and forces you to look at all those other skills you have.

Or one can make a character with more creativity to play the dungeon at hand. Being forced to play a single route is not usually a good thing, IMO.

I really think Bioware needs to consider spicing up some areas for certain classes. And yes, the estate was a nice touch, they just need more content like it. I'd happily trade some of the tedious dungeons for more specialized dungeons like that estate.

I did not find the majority of the content to be boring, according to my playing time. That said, if the majority of the dungeons were all like the Estate, it would be cool, but then it would fail to be as exclusive

You seem to desire DAO to be the game you want to make, and dislike Bioware for making the one they desired.  Guess that is what the Toolkit is for then....