524 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

"Mass Effect 2 has one of the worst plots in the history of gaming sequels."

Having established that, WHY did this happen?

[glacier1701]

I am really amazed at the remarks popping up on the YouTube comments about the vids. If people feel that ME2 was good perhaps they should be able to produce video commentary on what they liked about it rather than just hurl out obscene insults. Some of the comments here, while not obscene, do not seem to have any backing for them other than "you don't like ME2 you are a bad person." I am almost certain from what smud has said in the past and what he says in vids that he's perhaps taken courses at university on literature or film. At the very least he knows how to construct critism in a way that is serious and uses points/counterpoints to show us where or why he has the ideas he does. I cannot say the same for a few who dont like what he says.

[SithLordExarKun]

smudboy wrote...



(Now if I said it was the worst plot ever in my rantings, then I apologize, and I was being overly emotional.   ME2 has so many holes it may possibly be the worst, and I know I said a lo of things.  But I'm quite sure I never said that.)

Seriously? A game that doesn't please you gets you emotional? Get a life seriously.

[smudboy]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

smudboy wrote...

(Now if I said it was the worst plot ever in my rantings, then I apologize, and I was being overly emotional.   ME2 has so many holes it may possibly be the worst, and I know I said a lo of things.  But I'm quite sure I never said that.)

Seriously? A game that doesn't please you gets you emotional? Get a life seriously.

Wow.

[DarthCaine]

Obviously ME1 didn't have ANY plot holes, like let's say:



Saren's amazing surfboard suddenly making a reappearance at the end despite several shots of him walking towards the Council Chambers beforehand.



Or how on Feros, Saren suddenly doesn't know where the Thorian is even though he was able to offer Shiala to it in trade and then gain the Cipher.



Or how Saren and Sovereign even learned what they were looking for was called the Conduit.



(just a few off the top of my head)

[mosor]

DarthCaine wrote...

Obviously ME1 didn't have ANY plot holes, like let's say:

Saren's amazing surfboard suddenly making a reappearance at the end despite several shots of him walking towards the Council Chambers beforehand.

Or how on Feros, Saren suddenly doesn't know where the Thorian is even though he was able to offer Shiala to it in trade and then gain the Cipher.

Or how Saren and Sovereign even learned what they were looking for was called the Conduit.

(just a few off the top of my head)

ME has some plot holes sure, but the epic story and the newness of the universe made up for it. As or the plotholes on the top of you head.

1. Doesn't make sense to shuffle board into the control room. Would probably hit his head at the door. Maybe he left it somewhere else.

2. Didn't realize Saren was looking for the Thorian while Sheppard was in Ferros. I just assumed he got what he wanted and left the geth to terrorize.

3. It may have been called something else. Who cares, thats the name they put to that device. Personally I find a mystery how did Sovereign know such a device even existed. Beacon maybe, but it's not explained. Unless I missed something.

Modifié par mosor, 26 mai 2010 - 12:15 .

[Sharn01]

The Geth knew where the Thorian was, the colonists where protecting it, when Shepard arrived they where all but defeated, the vast majority of them already dead.

[Sharn01]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

smudboy wrote...



(Now if I said it was the worst plot ever in my rantings, then I apologize, and I was being overly emotional.   ME2 has so many holes it may possibly be the worst, and I know I said a lo of things.  But I'm quite sure I never said that.)

Seriously? A game that doesn't please you gets you emotional? Get a life seriously.

Hypocritical much?  You are being just as emotional as Smudboy with your rantings in this thread.

[DarthCaine]

Yes and the krogan was searching for the thorian because he knew exactly where it is. He was just testing the computer to see whether IT knew

Modifié par DarthCaine, 26 mai 2010 - 12:23 .

[Sharn01]

smudboy wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I agree with a lot of what you had to say Smudboy, but you did exaggerate and nitpick on some things also.

An example of your exaggeration would be worst plot ever, maybe worst bioware plot ever but worst ever it is not. If you had said its one of the worst examples of a sequal not moving the exsisting overarching story forward I would agree with you, but that is not how you phrased it.

Despite the trolls, rabid swearing youtube fanboys, this is what I cannot accept.

This is what I said.  The first line.  Of the first video:

"Mass Effect 2 has one of the worst plots in the history of gaming sequels."

Please do not paraphraze.  Please do not "get" the "spirit" of the "message."  I'm not using metaphor or leading you on.  If you're going to quote me, get it right.

(Now if I said it was the worst plot ever in my rantings, then I apologize, and I was being overly emotional.   ME2 has so many holes it may possibly be the worst, and I know I said a lo of things.  But I'm quite sure I never said that.)

That may have been the message you intended to send and I apologize if I am wrong.  As heated as these discussions get between the, there is nothing wrong with ME2 its the best game ever crowd, and those who think it needs a lot of improvement, I feel you should be very specific so its clear to even a quick read or someone only half listening.

[Sharn01]

DarthCaine wrote...

Yes and the krogan was searching for the thorian because he knew exactly where it is. He was just testing the computer to see whether IT knew

I would have to replay the game, but I do not recall the game ever stating the Krogan was trying to find the Throrian, but was trying to access the files on it, which could be for a lot of purposes.  Perhaps to destroy it and romove evidence of Saren's activity on Feros.

[DarthCaine]

Sharn01 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Yes and the krogan was searching for the thorian because he knew exactly where it is. He was just testing the computer to see whether IT knew

I would have to replay the game, but I do not recall the game ever stating the Krogan was trying to find the Throrian, but was trying to access the files on it, which could be for a lot of purposes.  Perhaps to destroy it and romove evidence of Saren's activity on Feros.

If he knew where it was he could have just used his dropship to land an Armature or two on top of the colonists instead of sending troops in the stupid way which ends up resulting in just a different plot hole.

Then why didn't he just blow it the moment he left?

And then why leave the beacon on Virmire up and running? Because it makes a cool decoration?

Modifié par DarthCaine, 26 mai 2010 - 12:31 .

[Ecael]

glacier1701 wrote...

I am really amazed at the remarks popping up on the YouTube comments about the vids. If people feel that ME2 was good perhaps they should be able to produce video commentary on what they liked about it rather than just hurl out obscene insults. Some of the comments here, while not obscene, do not seem to have any backing for them other than "you don't like ME2 you are a bad person." I am almost certain from what smud has said in the past and what he says in vids that he's perhaps taken courses at university on literature or film. At the very least he knows how to construct critism in a way that is serious and uses points/counterpoints to show us where or why he has the ideas he does. I cannot say the same for a few who dont like what he says.

I could spend hours trying to convince people that ME1 and ME2 aren't that different at all, but for some reason people still believe that BioWare intentionally made the game terrible - even though they had the same team working on it. As I said before, it's like comparing Transformers 1 to Transformers 2 - and saying that Transformers 2 is terrible because the first one had fewer explosions and fewer cheesy lines.

Of all the aspects about Mass Effect, the plot seems to be the most criticized, yet it's the one that's the least changeable. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers already had the main plot written out for Mass Effect 3 before they decided to set up the final suicide mission. Pointing out how much those 10 writers suck isn't going to change anything except how often they visit the forums (and it seems that they don't anymore).

And in terms of "worst gaming sequel plots", you'd have to compare it to sequels whose stories carry over from the first game and will carry over into the third game. Most game developers these days will just write a new plot for the sequel from the ground up, even if it's the same series.

Modifié par Ecael, 26 mai 2010 - 12:33 .

[Zulu_DFA]

mosor wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Obviously ME1 didn't have ANY plot holes, like let's say:

Saren's amazing surfboard suddenly making a reappearance at the end despite several shots of him walking towards the Council Chambers beforehand.

Or how on Feros, Saren suddenly doesn't know where the Thorian is even though he was able to offer Shiala to it in trade and then gain the Cipher.

Or how Saren and Sovereign even learned what they were looking for was called the Conduit.

(just a few off the top of my head)

ME has some plot holes sure, but the epic story and the newness of the universe made up for it. As or the plotholes on the top of you head.

1. Doesn't make sense to shuffle board into the control room. Would probably hit his head at the door. Maybe he left it somewhere else.

2. Didn't realize Saren was looking for the Thorian while Sheppard was in Ferros. I just assumed he got what he wanted and left the geth to terrorize.

3. It may have been called something else. Who cares, thats the name they put to that device. Personally I find a mystery how did Sovereign know such a device even existed. Beacon maybe, but it's not explained. Unless I missed something.

1. May have been another platform. The one the Turian Councillor always used to get to that balcony.

2. Saren new where the Thorian was, and left his Geth to deal with it. The Geth had almost overrun the Zeu's Hope when Shepard arrived. Saren was counting on keeping the operation as low-profile as possible, so he had taken too few Geth with him to Feros. Only enough to supress the colonists' resistence. He wasn't expecting the relief to arrive so soon to such a backwater outpost, after the attack on Eden Prime.

3. This whole Ilos-Conduit-Vigil thing is suspicious. maybe not plot hole at all, but a mystery to be solved in ME3. Consider: how can Vigil have some useful data against the Reapers, if the 12 scientists who teleported to the Citadel to produce such data, never returned? Then, Vigil (that has supposedly maintained functionality for 50000 years) shuts down right after Sovereign gets destroyed...

[Sharn01]

Regardless of what is right, these are not plot holes in the story as a whole, but inconsistencies in the storytelling. All popular media have a certain suspension of disbelief that the majority of people find acceptable, when a story reguarly steps out of this area it starts to become rediculous, so much so that comedy will often do it intentionally because at a certain point it stops being annoying and starts to be funny.

Saren accessing equipment in a room when you dont see how he got it in there is a bit silly, but can be explained with very little suspension of disbelief.

Shepard being killed for no reason other then to hit the reset button on the story and give him a reason to work for the evil terrorist organization while having all his allies from the previous game act completely out of character for everything that has already happened in the story so far is a plot hole.

Modifié par Sharn01, 26 mai 2010 - 12:40 .

[DarthCaine]

Sharn01 wrote...

Saren accessing equipment in a room when you dont see how he got it in there is a bit silly, but can be explained with very little suspension of disbelief.

So can any ME2 plot hole

[Onyx Jaguar]

Images wrote...







Based on what? The only information on the mission comes from her and the team!!

Because thats what ends up happening



She succeeds in the role but somebody dies.

[mosor]

Ecael wrote...

glacier1701 wrote...

I am really amazed at the remarks popping up on the YouTube comments about the vids. If people feel that ME2 was good perhaps they should be able to produce video commentary on what they liked about it rather than just hurl out obscene insults. Some of the comments here, while not obscene, do not seem to have any backing for them other than "you don't like ME2 you are a bad person." I am almost certain from what smud has said in the past and what he says in vids that he's perhaps taken courses at university on literature or film. At the very least he knows how to construct critism in a way that is serious and uses points/counterpoints to show us where or why he has the ideas he does. I cannot say the same for a few who dont like what he says.

I could spend hours trying to convince people that ME1 and ME2 aren't that different at all, but for some reason people still believe that BioWare intentionally made the game terrible - even though they had the same team working on it. As I said before, it's like comparing Transformers 1 to Transformers 2 - and saying that Transformers 2 is terrible because the first one had fewer explosions and fewer cheesy lines.

Of all the aspects about Mass Effect, the plot seems to be the most criticized, yet it's the one that's the least changeable. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers already had the main plot written out for Mass Effect 3 before they decided to set up the final suicide mission. Pointing out how much those 10 writers suck isn't going to change anything except how often they visit the forums (and it seems that they don't anymore).

And in terms of "worst gaming sequel plots", you'd have to compare it to sequels whose stories carry over from the first game and will carry over into the third game. Most game developers these days will just write a new plot for the sequel from the ground up, even if it's the same series.

Personally I didn't think both transformers were very good, but the first one was definitely better than the second.

The writers can do as they please really. If they are that thin skinned toward criticisim, then so be it. Personally if I was a writer I'd rather guage honest feelings about my work than have a bunch of sycophants telling me how great I am because they're afraid I won't visit these forums.

No one is saying Bioware intentionally made this game's story terrible. I surely hope they are setting up something fantastic for mass effect 3 story wise. Howver the feel of ME2 is different than ME1. In ME1's main missions you were saving colonies or preventing galactic disasters. You only had 1 recruitment mission.. That makes the scope big.

In ME2, you spend your time recruiting people and resolving their personal issues. That makes the scope much smaller for most of the game. It sucks that the collectors are not all that interesting as villians and antagonists. When compared to Saren, they're pretty flat.

Don't get me wrong. I love ME2. It's probably my most replayed bioware game. I just felt ME1 had more of that grandness in story and possibilites than ME2 brought. As I said above, I just hope ME3 gives a satisying conclusion and ties up a lot of loose ends.

[Sharn01]

Explain how vigil miraculously shut down right after ME1.



Explain why Cerberus brought Shepard back to life.



Explain why Shepard is not allowed to call Cerberus out on any of its activities and is only allowed a half hearted I will never join you...ok, I will join line early on.



Explain the whitewash of Cerberus, and how players are expected to simply take what Miranda and TIM say as face value without any evidence to support what they are saying. Because we all know that TIM would never lie to get Shepard to work for him.



Explain how the collectors with one ship are going to destroy the entire alliance fleet and hit earth for people to melt. If they can do that we would have already lost, unless you think the Normandy is some magical vessel that is superior to the rest of the alliance fleet combined? If that is the case you are just delusional, not even a Reaper is a match for the combined forces of the alliance fleet, and if you do think it is that good then we have already won the battle against the Reapers by just making more models of the Normandy.



One of my personal favorites. Explain why Shepard acts like a drunken hooker when talking to Jacob. Not really a plot hole, just something that pissed me off.



Explain the giant Terminator, please explain it, I find this crap hard to swallow, again not a plot hole, just sheer stupidity.



Explain why every ally you had in ME suddenly turns retarded and act completely out of character in ME2. This one of course could be explained in ME3 if they are playing dumb for the time being, but if this turns out to be their actual beliefs then its a massive plot hole that can never be overlooked.



The list goes on, but these are some of the big ones.

[DarthCaine]

Sharn01 wrote...

Explain how vigil miraculously shut down right after ME1.
It can be explained it similar ways you'd explain why the beacon on Eden Prime exploded
It run out of power, it overloaded etc.

Explain why Cerberus brought Shepard back to life.
Maybe because he killed a Reaper?
Why did the Council make Shepard a Spectre in ME1? Answer: He's very skilled

Explain why Shepard is not allowed to call Cerberus out on any of its activities and is only allowed a half hearted I will never join you...ok, I will join line early on.
The same reason you can't refuse to be Spectre in ME1 or call the council any time time you want
It's a plot element

Explain the whitewash of Cerberus, and how players are expected to simply take what Miranda and TIM say as face value without any evidence to support what they are saying. Because we all know that TIM would never lie to get Shepard to work for him.
Why do think we went to Freedom's Progress? Besides. You don't have any choice. Nobody else will help you

Explain how the collectors with one ship are going to destroy the entire alliance fleet and hit earth for people to melt. If they can do that we would have already lost, unless you think the Normandy is some magical vessel that is superior to the rest of the alliance fleet combined? If that is the case you are just delusional, not even a Reaper is a match for the combined forces of the alliance fleet, and if you do think it is that good then we have already won the battle against the Reapers by just making more models of the Normandy.
The Normandy took out the Collector Ship 'cos it was a suprise attack. They weren't expecting Shepard. How the Collectors are going to attack earth was their plan and wasn't explained in the same way how Saren found out about the conduit wasn't explained

One of my personal favorites. Explain why Shepard acts like a drunken hooker when talking to Jacob. Not really a plot hole, just something that pissed me off.
Bad writing. That's not a plot hole.
Heck, I thought almost every ME1 squad mate was badly written (including Wrex who was a bland boring version of Canderous Ordo)

Explain the giant Terminator, please explain it, I find this crap hard to swallow, again not a plot hole, just sheer stupidity.
You said it yourself. Not a plot hole. I agree it was stupid

Explain why every ally you had in ME suddenly turns retarded and act completely out of character in ME2. This one of course could be explained in ME3 if they are playing dumb for the time being, but if this turns out to be their actual beliefs then its a massive plot hole that can never be overlooked.
Each squad mate gave out his/her reason. The main reason was because 3/4 could be killed in ME1 and BioWare was too lazy to make multiple squad mates from which you can only choose one. They did it so that the variations in ME3 will be less and every squad mate can only die once (Liara wasn't recruitable 'cos the other LIs weren't)

None of those were plot holes
A plot hole is something like: Why Wilson betrayed you (which can only be guessed) or why the Collectors wanted Shepard's body (which will be explained in the Liara DLC)

Like you said it yourself, they can be explained with very little suspension of disbelief.But apparantely you don't even want to try that (just like every biased ME2 hater)

[Sharn01]

I was referring more to the council and alliance allies then the squadmates which are a whole different story.



The fact that no one else will help you besides Cerberus is horrible plot and railroading to get their favorite pet from the novels into the game.



Maybe I am being unfair on the declaration of plothole in some instances. A better statement would be a contrived plotline that does not fit coherently with the pre established plot from ME1.



The bulk of the storytelling in ME2 also has little to nothing to do with this poorly written plot, although all the parts of the game that had nothing to do with its main plot are what made the game enjoyable to play, since the small stories within the game are what the writers did a good job on.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sharn01 wrote...

Explain how vigil miraculously shut down right after ME1.

Vigil was Sovereign or something.

Sharn01 wrote...
Explain why Cerberus brought Shepard back to life.

Cerberus works for the Alliance. + TIM explains much of his reasons to you if you talk to him civilly.

Sharn01 wrote...
Explain why Shepard is not allowed to call Cerberus out on any of its activities and is only allowed a half hearted I will never join you...ok, I will join line early on.

You mean Akuze? At the time of the Akuze Cerberus was with the Alliance 100%, regardless of their current standing. Why isn't Sheppard allowed to question Hackett, Anderson, Udina, or President Huerta on the subject? Because it's pointless!

Sharn01 wrote...
Explain the whitewash of Cerberus, and how players are expected to simply take what Miranda and TIM say as face value without any evidence to support what they are saying. Because we all know that TIM would never lie to get Shepard to work for him.

Cerberus are the good guys with bad habits. And the Council doesn't want to know of Shepard (IIRC, they never wanted).

Sharn01 wrote...
Explain how the collectors with one ship are going to destroy the entire alliance fleet and hit earth for people to melt. If they can do that we would have already lost, unless you think the Normandy is some magical vessel that is superior to the rest of the alliance fleet combined? If that is the case you are just delusional, not even a Reaper is a match for the combined forces of the alliance fleet, and if you do think it is that good then we have already won the battle against the Reapers by just making more models of the Normandy.

Collectors aiming at Earth was just a guess. If you destroy the C-Base, you'll never learn the answers to these questions.

Sharn01 wrote...
One of my personal favorites. Explain why Shepard acts like a drunken hooker when talking to Jacob. Not really a plot hole, just something that pissed me off.

Because Sheploo is a male.

Sharn01 wrote...
Explain the giant Terminator, please explain it, I find this crap hard to swallow, again not a plot hole, just sheer stupidity.

It's not a plot hole. It's a poor artistic solution that mars the story. They all are like that. High heels, boobs in space, thermal ammo, Cerberus logo sticking out at Normandy's prow... Don't blame the writers. Blame the artists and fluent gameplay.

Sharn01 wrote...
Explain why every ally you had in ME suddenly turns retarded and act completely out of character in ME2. This one of course could be explained in ME3 if they are playing dumb for the time being, but if this turns out to be their actual beliefs then its a massive plot hole that can never be overlooked.

First, They have moved on. Then, Liara is still "barely more than a child" and acts childish. Garrus always wanted to be a BAMF, and always failed at it. Ashley spent two years under Anderson... (and Anderson divorced a long time ago...). Tali... well you get to scrogg her, that's all what was required of her in ME2 by the fans...

Sharn01 wrote...
The list goes on, but these are some of the big ones.

Please, continue.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 mai 2010 - 01:59 .

[Ecael]

mosor wrote...

Personally I didn't think both transformers were very good, but the first one was definitely better than the second.

The writers can do as they please really. If they are that thin skinned toward criticisim, then so be it. Personally if I was a writer I'd rather guage honest feelings about my work than have a bunch of sycophants telling me how great I am because they're afraid I won't visit these forums.

...But you aren't a writer. And a writer thrives off of ideas, not insults and complaints.

Most people here think pointing out every single flaw possible will change something, but instead they'll just be ignored even more.

Because of that, they don't see a need to visit the forums - there aren't any good ideas that come out of it anyway, just arguments. They'll write the game by themselves. They're the writers, not us.

No one is saying Bioware intentionally made this game's story terrible. I surely hope they are setting up something fantastic for mass effect 3 story wise. Howver the feel of ME2 is different than ME1. In ME1's main missions you were saving colonies or preventing galactic disasters. You only had 1 recruitment mission.. That makes the scope big.

It's still very cliché, though. Superhero vs. villain. If someone were to make a movie out of that (and now they are!), people would complain about how it's "just another superhero story in space".

In ME2, you spend your time recruiting people and resolving their personal issues. That makes the scope much smaller for most of the game. It sucks that the collectors are not all that interesting as villians and antagonists. When compared to Saren, they're pretty flat.

-Grunt furthered the story (and fate) of the krogan on Tuchanka. Most Krogans had actual personalities too - only Wrex had any decent dialogue for a krogan last game.

-Legion furthered the story of the geth and made you feel sympathy for them, as well as illustrated the inside of a hollowed-out Reaper and a geth fortress.

-Mordin furthered the story of the genophage and went over the ethical issues of sterilizing them, as well further personifying Salarians.

-Thane introduced an entirely new race (Drell), who helped you learn more about them as well as the Hanar.

-Miranda, Jacob and EDI had you learn more about the Alliance and Cerberus, and how Cerberus is capable of doing good things for humanity - even when other sects of their group can get into some really shady stuff.

-Tali furthered the story of the Quarians and their political in-fighting amongst themselves over whether they should go to war with the geth.

-Zaeed put a face and personality on a mercenary group he was once a part of, making you realize that not all the enemies you fight are bad apples.

-Kasumi and Jack were the first characters to go into detail about their previous relationships (and not just Shepard's relationships), helping Shepard realize that he's not the only one suffering from the loss (or separation) of loved ones. Kasumi's data may also have unforeseen consequences to the Alliance.

-Jack also gave you the other side of Cerberus (it's fun to bring Miranda of Jacob to her loyalty mission) and they didn't just make the Cerberus experiments a side mission, but made her the experiment.

-Samara/Morinth expanded upon the asari social structure and their reliance on Justicars.

-The Collectors illustrated the true fate of the Protheans and continued the Reaper plot, explaining why they need the galactic races to survive instead of just wiping them out.

Don't get me wrong. I love ME2. It's probably my most replayed bioware game. I just felt ME1 had more of that grandness in story and possibilites than ME2 brought. As I said above, I just hope ME3 gives a satisying conclusion and ties up a lot of loose ends.

As I described above, ME2 has many well-written stories and characters aside from the main plot. It expands upon almost all the races and storylines from ME1.

It feels like people are forgetting all the storylines set up in the beginning, skipping all the dialogue in ME2, and just going straight to shooting stuff -- and then going onto the forums to complain that it was just a pointless shooter.

Mass Effect 1 becomes a pointless shooter if they treat it in that simplistic fashion (and without any objectivity) as well. Just listen to Sovereign's speech on Virmire and realize how much of it was actual just intimidation or bragging:



Only a few lines give any indication as to why they need organic species. Harbinger also only has a few useful lines, but also explains why they don't want some of them.

By the final battle, you have EDI speculating on what they're doing to build a Reaper instead of just destroying Saren and a Reaper with more 'splosions. At least Vigil had a lot of dialogue about the Citadel and why Saren did what he did, but not much information on a Reaper's true intentions.

Considering most of the same writers are writing for each game in the trilogy, complaining about how the plot in one part is terrible is a lot like complaining about novelist because the middle chapters of the book you were reading didn't seem to have a beginning or an end to it.

If someone is complaining about one part of the book, they're basically complaining about all of it.

Modifié par Ecael, 26 mai 2010 - 02:16 .