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ME2: A Video Plot Analysis


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#301
Iakus

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smudboy wrote...

I want it to be clear.  I am 4 years old.  Watching a number of sci-fi space opera cutscenes.  I want things as basic as it gets.   You may be a super deductive insightful genius.  I am not.  Insult my dumb brain.  I don't care.  I want it clear.  Simplified.  I see a colorful picture.  That's all.  I can't start making deductions on wtf that thing means, or what other pictures may be stored on the space opera iPad.  I want it to be understood.  I want it beaten over my head if the scene somehow thinks I suddenly lost all cognitive powers of English, Fine Art, or memory, or they're jumping between points of view, or they're on a dreamscape sequence, or a stream of consciousness.  On a goddamned jpg.


Careful there.  While I agree a single line like "Hey Commander, you should see what EDI found in the Collector ship/base's computers"  would clear everything beyond a doubt, that kind of talk gets us a constant stream of "you have new messages at your private terminal" and "Press 'F' to exit the mission" messages  Image IPB

#302
Iakus

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Ecael wrote...

iakus wrote...

So...giving us half a game was deliberate?Image IPB

Well, unless you have a better reason why the same writers would take this direction...


Well, I'm not so far gone as to attribute it to malice.  Still, It REALLY sux to have to wait  a year and a half to two years to get a conclusion. 

ME1 to ME2- happy anticipation, can't wait to return to the universe

ME2 to ME3 impatient waiting with mutterings of "They better not screw this up"

#303
Ecael

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iakus wrote...

Ecael wrote...

iakus wrote...

So...giving us half a game was deliberate?Image IPB

Well, unless you have a better reason why the same writers would take this direction...


Well, I'm not so far gone as to attribute it to malice.  Still, It REALLY sux to have to wait  a year and a half to two years to get a conclusion. 

ME1 to ME2- happy anticipation, can't wait to return to the universe

ME2 to ME3 impatient waiting with mutterings of "They better not screw this up"

True, but BioWare loves to keep people in suspense, don't they?

:innocent:

Truth is, a lot of the writing is really out of our control. We could suggest a way to fix a plot hole or an idea for a side quest, but the writers aren't going to listen to other people's general ideas or criticisms about the main plot, either for creative reasons or legal reasons.

http://www.drewkarpyshyn.com/faq.htm

Will you look at my story, novel, video game script, screenplay, etc?

Drew Karpyshyn: No. Absolutely not. There are very strong legal reasons I can’t look at submissions, ideas, or unpublished work from other writers. It just opens the door to all kinds of messy litigation, so I don’t do it. Aside from that, I’m juggling two careers right now.

I have the best idea ever for a novel, game, movie…

Drew Karpyshyn: Don’t care. Don’t send it to me. The last thing I need are ideas. I have more ideas than I’ll ever use. Ideas are the easy part. Everybody has ideas. Transforming ideas into something suitable for public consumption is the hard part; that’s what I get paid for. That’s the art and profession of being a writer.



#304
Andrew_Waltfeld

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smudboy wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
The picture looks awful Schematic to me. Then again, I don't know how much 3d modeling you do. Hell, Military Intelligence officers probably have that or just one picture to work off, let alone an complete 3d model of it.

That is not a schematic.  Look at electrical, mechanical, structural blueprints.  Those are schematics

That is a picture of 4 shots of a Reaper.  A la pre-rendered 3D
style.  Because it is simple, and colorful, and clear.  We can assume
EDI is busy decrypting other data, but we can't infer what exactly.


It is an jump to an assumption that it is indeed an schematic, but it's not far-fetched. I am more than willingly to take the risk to say it's an schematic. Doesn't need to be all triangles, lines, dots and blue paper in order to say "how reapers are built." I am personally not losing sleep over it or condemming it as bad writing becuase it is not explained. It's not suppose to be, otherwise it would be. Just would be one less curious thing to find out in ME3.

I want it to be clear.  I am 4 years old.  Watching a number of sci-fi space opera cutscenes.  I want things as basic as it gets.   You may be a super deductive insightful genius.  I am not.  Insult my dumb brain.  I don't care.  I want it clear.  Simplified.  I see a colorful picture.  That's all.  I can't start making deductions on wtf that thing means, or what other pictures may be stored on the space opera iPad.  I want it to be understood.  I want it beaten over my head if the scene somehow thinks I suddenly lost all cognitive powers of English, Fine Art, or memory, or they're jumping between points of view, or they're on a dreamscape sequence, or a stream of consciousness.  On a goddamned jpg.


Well this isn't an book first of all. Your idea would work well with an story that is written out purely in words (and all stories should be like that), but in the video game world.... not so much. Visual imagery is the eye of the beholder, and people have been confused on why sheppard does this, this character does that, others have understoood it, but didn't understand another part... it goes on.

Which is why you can't chisel it into someone's head. It's like playing telephone with 25 people, the message will not always come out exactly as the writers intended it because that is the nature of the beast. Everyone sees everything differently. It's like those pysch tests with the blotches of ink. "What do you see?" This is an inherit problem that will never go away.

As Samara said. "Ask 4 humans for their opinons, and you get 8 opinons in return." Some people see Miranda as an stuck up ***** , others like thane, some thought the game was horrible, others liked kasumi, others thought X, Y and Z part of the story was dumb. Our own bias/experince/personalities/ HOW WE DO THINGS-  get in the way of the story telling, ESPECIALLY for videogames.

Much like you saying why not an massive spy network watching the omega IV relay or ____ or _____ . You operated completely different from sheppard that was in the narrative and tackled the problem an completely different way. The way it was handled in the story was against your mode of operation on how to solve the problem, so you see it as bad story writing. It's nothing to feel bad about, as I agreed full heartly that I would have done alot of things almost the same, but the story did not let me. We are merely along for the ride and just guide how things get done in the story which opens up this can of worms of why I wasn't able to give the finger to Cerbersus in the begining! etc etc.

There was more than enough groundwork to assume at the very least, it's reaper data/info which means infomation on the reapers of somesort. How will this play out in ME3? Who knows, but questions are suppose to be raised in ME2 otherwise, what is the point with ME3 as the last act. Why should I finish the story if I can already guess the ending? I am sure you would point that out as horrible writing. The same goes for ME1/ME2/ME3.

I am not saying ME2 should be mounted on the wall as an trophy for best Videogame story, but people keep on modulating ME2 as confusing because of intentional loose ends and just wtf? scenes that are to be explained in ME3. Of course bad writing/plot device happens (Joker's mission), but we can't really do anything about that but slap bioware's hand and say dont' do that!

In the end, all of us are basically reading The lord of rings, but stopping at the end of the two towers and we don't get to read Return of the King until it comes out. Whether ME2 stories/plot was truely an waste of space in the storyline will be disproven or proven on the release of ME3 when we have the complete story arc done. Until then, trying to judge ME2 alone is akin to reading two towers without reading the fellowship first.

You certainly are not alone in your rage against the plot/story, but I reserve judgement for when the story arc is done and complete. Saying the second part was horrible writing and trying to judge it as an second story is foolish in my opinon. The first part was written to be an self-contained story/little loose ends, the second was not as it is to link us to the third part.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 27 mai 2010 - 03:22 .


#305
Iakus

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Ecael wrote...

True, but BioWare loves to keep people in suspense, don't they?

:innocent:

Truth is, a lot of the writing is really out of our control. We could suggest a way to fix a plot hole or an idea for a side quest, but the writers aren't going to listen to other people's general ideas or criticisms about the main plot, either for creative reasons or legal reasons.

http://www.drewkarpyshyn.com/faq.htm

Will you look at my story, novel, video game script, screenplay, etc?

Drew Karpyshyn: No. Absolutely not. There are very strong legal reasons I can’t look at submissions, ideas, or unpublished work from other writers. It just opens the door to all kinds of messy litigation, so I don’t do it. Aside from that, I’m juggling two careers right now.

I have the best idea ever for a novel, game, movie…

Drew Karpyshyn: Don’t care. Don’t send it to me. The last thing I need are ideas. I have more ideas than I’ll ever use. Ideas are the easy part. Everybody has ideas. Transforming ideas into something suitable for public consumption is the hard part; that’s what I get paid for. That’s the art and profession of being a writer.


Yeah I figured  as much (and I seriously wouldn't want a writing job.  Too much thinking involvedImage IPB) And I'm sure ME2 and ME 3 are done deals.  Changing tings now would likely just cause chaos.  Still, if they realize that there are people who are unhappy with the direction this game has gone, maybe we can save future games from similar treatment.

#306
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smudboy wrote...
I want it to be clear.  I am 4 years old.  Watching a number of sci-fi space opera cutscenes.  I want things as basic as it gets.   You may be a super deductive insightful genius.  I am not Insult my dumb brain.  I don't care.  I want it clear.  Simplified.  I see a colorful picture.  That's all.  I can't start making deductions on wtf that thing means, or what other pictures may be stored on the space opera iPad.  I want it to be understood.  I want it beaten over my head if the scene somehow thinks I suddenly lost all cognitive powers of English, Fine Art, or memory, or they're jumping between points of view, or they're on a dreamscape sequence, or a stream of consciousness.  On a goddamned jpg.


Geez Smud, calm down man. I actually like your vids and constructive criticism a lot but you need to reel it back a bit. You've got to admit this is getting to a slightly angry nitpicky tone stage.

STOP!

HAMMER TIME!Image IPB

Whoops! I meant...

STOP!

Start from a new point of attack for now, leave this one for later. I actually enjoy some of the rational debate on this thread and would like to hear another angle you've got as it grows. May I suggest starting on a positive and easing us into an issue to discuss.

Go For it!

#307
ODST 3

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Great game, no one cares.

#308
smudboy

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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
It is an jump to an assumption that it is indeed an schematic, but it's not far-fetched. I am more than willingly to take the risk to say it's an schematic. Doesn't need to be all triangles, lines, dots and blue paper in order to say "how reapers are built." I am personally not losing sleep over it or condemming it as bad writing becuase it is not explained. It's not suppose to be, otherwise it would be. Just would be one less curious thing to find out in ME3.

It's a jpg.  Keep dreaming.

Well this isn't an book first of all. Your idea would work well with an story that is written out purely in words (and all stories should be like that), but in the video game world.... not so much. Visual imagery is the eye of the beholder, and people have been confused on why sheppard does this, this character does that, others have understoood it, but didn't understand another part... it goes on.

This works with all media.  Clarity.  Unless you want abstract art.

#309
smudboy

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Images wrote...
Geez Smud, calm down man. I actually like your vids and constructive criticism a lot but you need to reel it back a bit. You've got to admit this is getting to a slightly angry nitpicky tone stage.

STOP!

HAMMER TIME!Image IPB

Whoops! I meant...

STOP!

Start from a new point of attack for now, leave this one for later. I actually enjoy some of the rational debate on this thread and would like to hear another angle you've got as it grows. May I suggest starting on a positive and easing us into an issue to discuss.

Go For it!

People do not understand story telling, let alone good storytelling.  People do not understand that there are stories in everything, not just the written word.  People do not understand that whatever their creative minds think up, there is no "characterization of Shepard."

#310
Ecael

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smudboy wrote...

People do not understand story telling, let alone good storytelling.  People do not understand that there are stories in everything, not just the written word.  People do not understand that whatever their creative minds think up, there is no "characterization of Shepard."

http://www.bioware.c...tin_writer.html

BioWare Austin is hiring more game story writers for good storytelling. You should apply and let us know how that goes.

#311
Andrew_Waltfeld

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smudboy wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
It is an jump to an assumption that it is indeed an schematic, but it's not far-fetched. I am more than willingly to take the risk to say it's an schematic. Doesn't need to be all triangles, lines, dots and blue paper in order to say "how reapers are built." I am personally not losing sleep over it or condemming it as bad writing becuase it is not explained. It's not suppose to be, otherwise it would be. Just would be one less curious thing to find out in ME3.

It's a jpg.  Keep dreaming.

Alright. You can keep dreaming of jpg's. I agree to dis-agree. =] Simple matter of opinon after all. I know enough to see an 3d model display when I see one.

Well this isn't an book first of all. Your idea would work well with an story that is written out purely in words (and all stories should be like that), but in the video game world.... not so much. Visual imagery is the eye of the beholder, and people have been confused on why sheppard does this, this character does that, others have understoood it, but didn't understand another part... it goes on.

This works with all media.  Clarity.  Unless you want abstract art.


More than enough Clarity in ME2 for everything considering it's an video game but the poor writing parts (Wilsion, installing the IFF and then leaving etc etc). An little mystery here and there just means it shows up in ME3 or future DLC. No biggie. I don't need everything spelled out or chiseled into my head in order to make some educated guesses. I do have an brain afterall and I don't mind using it.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 27 mai 2010 - 04:16 .


#312
Andrew_Waltfeld

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smudboy wrote...

People do not understand story telling, let alone good storytelling.  People do not understand that there are stories in everything, not just the written word.  People do not understand that whatever their creative minds think up, there is no "characterization of Shepard."


Ok then, apply to bioware, get on the ME3 writing team and give them another perspective for an more solid story. Got my support.

I totally understand it, However I also understand how the human psych works and there is much that is lost in translation just because human beings are well human beings.

#313
smudboy

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Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

People do not understand story telling, let alone good storytelling.  People do not understand that there are stories in everything, not just the written word.  People do not understand that whatever their creative minds think up, there is no "characterization of Shepard."

http://www.bioware.c...tin_writer.html

BioWare Austin is hiring more game story writers for good storytelling. You should apply and let us know how that goes.


No thanks.

#314
smudboy

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Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
More than enough Clarity in ME2 for everything considering it's an video game but the poor writing parts (Wilsion, installing the IFF and then leaving etc etc). An little mystery here and there just means it shows up in ME3 or future DLC. No biggie. I don't need everything spelled out or chiseled into my head in order to make some educated guesses. I do have an brain afterall and I don't mind using it.

Oh, so because it's a video game, it has more than enough clarity.  That doesn't even begin to make sense.

Just stop responding, I've nothing to teach, and you've nothing to learn.  And vice versa.

#315
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smudboy wrote...

Oh, so because it's a video game, it has more than enough clarity.  That doesn't even begin to make sense.

Just stop responding, I've nothing to teach, and you've nothing to learn.  And vice versa.


Much anger I sense in you my young padawan.

#316
Ecael

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smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

People do not understand story telling, let alone good storytelling.  People do not understand that there are stories in everything, not just the written word.  People do not understand that whatever their creative minds think up, there is no "characterization of Shepard."

http://www.bioware.c...tin_writer.html

BioWare Austin is hiring more game story writers for good storytelling. You should apply and let us know how that goes.


No thanks.

Why not? Drew Karpyshyn (Lead Writer, ME1/ME2) recently moved down there to help with The Old Republic. You could ask him why the writers took this direction or give him your suggestions.

:police:

#317
Zulu_DFA

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Ecael wrote...

http://www.bioware.c...tin_writer.html

BioWare Austin is hiring more game story writers for good storytelling. You should apply and let us know how that goes.


There is a problem. In the job description there is one line...

- Must have thorough understanding of the needs of the end-user as to write from that perspective.

Pardon me, but that's what the hookers do. IMHO, a writer (a writers team), to produce something of value, must have his (their) own angle. Of course, it's a must, to listen to the feedback, and crirtisism, but that doesn't mean automatically accept it. There was no feedback and critisism before the Mass Effect came out, and the story was epic. After it came out, there were the feedback, the critisism, and wishlists, and we got this cheezy (both trite and full of holes) plot of ME2. And, unless you deny Smudboy the right to be called "the end-user", the ME2 writing team fell flat at meeting the company's requirement.

That said, I still don't think it's the writers' fault. Of all the development sections (gameplay & level designers, artists, composers, animators) they did the best job at delivering the sequel to Mass Effect and upholding the continuity. The problem is, the directors and producers decided to go for the bigger buck with this particular title (gosh, why couln't they spoil some other franchise?). And ordered all sections to appeal to the more casual (and younger) customer. And it resulted in the writers being ordered to bent the plot to the needs of the "fluent gameplay", "awesome looks" and "cool characters".

And, in any case, even if BioWare has irreversibly shifted their focus from making great games to the lowly but lucrative and therefore totally worthy fan service, do they have to be that blatanlty open about it?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 mai 2010 - 01:27 .


#318
Ecael

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is a problem. In the job description there is one line...

- Must have thorough understanding of the needs of the end-user as to write from that perspective.

Pardon me, but that's what the hookers do. IMHO, a writer (a writers team), to produce something of value, must have his (their) own angle. Of course, it's a must, to listen to the feedback, and crirtisism, but that doesn't mean automatically accept it. There was no feedback and critisism before the Mass Effect came out, and the story was epic. After it came out, there were the feedback, the critisism, and wishlists, and we got this cheezy (both trite and full of holes) plot of ME2. And, unless you deny Smudboy the right to be called "the end-user", the ME2 writing team fell flat at meeting the company's requirement.

That said, I still don't think it's the writers' fault. Of all the development sections (gameplay & level designers, artists, composers, animators) they did the best job at delivering the sequel to Mass Effect and upholding the continuity. The problem is, the directors and producers decided to go for the bigger buck with this particular title (gosh, why couln't they spoil some other franchise?). And ordered all sections to appeal to the more casual (and younger) customer. And it resulted in the writers being ordered to bent the plot to the needs of the "fluent gameplay", "awesome looks" and "cool characters".

And, in any case, even if BioWare has irreversibly shifted their focus from making great games to the lowly but lucrative and therefore totally worthy fan service, do they have to be that blatanlty open about it?

You mention "fluent gameplay", "awesome looks" and "cool characters", but the writers are responsible for nothing in those last three phrases except for writing new characters (who are later designed and drawn by the Character Artists). Christina Norman leads Gameplay Design, Dusty Everman leads Level Design, and Jaemus Wurzbach leads Character Design.

Drew Karpyshyn and the others don't have anything to do with those three as writers.

I still don't see how anyone can associate "appealing to the more casual and younger" customer with what the writers did. It's irrational.

EDIT: Also, of course there wasn't any feedback before Mass Effect 1 came out - unless there was a Mass Effect 0 that I missed somewhere...

Modifié par Ecael, 27 mai 2010 - 01:40 .


#319
Zulu_DFA

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Ecael wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is a problem. In the job description there is one line...

- Must have thorough understanding of the needs of the end-user as to write from that perspective.

Pardon me, but that's what the hookers do. IMHO, a writer (a writers team), to produce something of value, must have his (their) own angle. Of course, it's a must, to listen to the feedback, and crirtisism, but that doesn't mean automatically accept it. There was no feedback and critisism before the Mass Effect came out, and the story was epic. After it came out, there were the feedback, the critisism, and wishlists, and we got this cheezy (both trite and full of holes) plot of ME2. And, unless you deny Smudboy the right to be called "the end-user", the ME2 writing team fell flat at meeting the company's requirement.

That said, I still don't think it's the writers' fault. Of all the development sections (gameplay & level designers, artists, composers, animators) they did the best job at delivering the sequel to Mass Effect and upholding the continuity. The problem is, the directors and producers decided to go for the bigger buck with this particular title (gosh, why couln't they spoil some other franchise?). And ordered all sections to appeal to the more casual (and younger) customer. And it resulted in the writers being ordered to bent the plot to the needs of the "fluent gameplay", "awesome looks" and "cool characters".

And, in any case, even if BioWare has irreversibly shifted their focus from making great games to the lowly but lucrative and therefore totally worthy fan service, do they have to be that blatanlty open about it?

You mention "fluent gameplay", "awesome looks" and "cool characters", but the writers are responsible for nothing in those last three phrases except for writing new characters (who are later designed and drawn by the Character Artists). Christina Norman leads Gameplay Design, Dusty Everman leads Level Design, and Jaemus Wurzbach leads Character Design.

Drew Karpyshyn and the others don't have anything to do with those three as writers.

I still don't see how anyone can associate "appealing to the more casual and younger" customer with what the writers did. It's irrational.

EDIT: Also, of course there wasn't any feedback before Mass Effect 1 came out - unless there was a Mass Effect 0 that I missed somewhere...


What I mean is: in ME1, the writers were like US Army Rangers: leading the way. They wrote the universe, then they wrote the basic story, the main plot, the side missions, and 1 minute quests. Then the designers and the artists made it into a game.

In ME2 the writers were like pizza delivery boys: hardly able to meet all requests, coming from every direction. They had to justify the thermal clips, then they had to write recruitment and loyalty missions for the cool badass squaddies, that really have little connection to the main story,  but also tailor those missions to accomodate the unique shooter experience of the level design. Then they had to put humans all over Omega and Illium because the face animators had to show off their stuff (which is not so evident even on Asari faces). Then we have this Cerberus logo and the Terminator issues, that are correctly identified as nosense, but incorrectly blamed on the writers. And then there were the fans, who demanded this and that, especially romances, although ceratin things were not supposed to be feasible in ME universe at all, or simply don't fit in in the main plot.

The plot suffered not because the writers were bad, but because the plot was no longer a priority.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 mai 2010 - 02:42 .


#320
smudboy

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Ecael wrote...
You mention "fluent gameplay", "awesome looks" and "cool characters", but the writers are responsible for nothing in those last three phrases except for writing new characters (who are later designed and drawn by the Character Artists). Christina Norman leads Gameplay Design, Dusty Everman leads Level Design, and Jaemus Wurzbach leads Character Design.

Drew Karpyshyn and the others don't have anything to do with those three as writers.

I still don't see how anyone can associate "appealing to the more casual and younger" customer with what the writers did. It's irrational.

EDIT: Also, of course there wasn't any feedback before Mass Effect 1 came out - unless there was a Mass Effect 0 that I missed somewhere...

Yet there is a great disconnect between the two games.  If it's not the writers fault, whose?  EA's?

BioWare Mass-ing Montreal devs

If the writers were the same, (or unless Mac Walters was drinking the entire time), then someone else had creative vision and control over design.  One starts with an idea, by writing a story, and then compromising that story as the development cycle necessitates.  Unless they literally started by playing with Unreal and going "woo cool", then the level of compromise is at ridiculous levels, where writing was not the precedent, and the writers have to make do with what the director tells them.  Whereupon we get RPG cliché #140/Cutscene power to the max, Armor Is Useless, (a host of other tropes), a Terminator, and causal links between scenes that don't make sense.

#321
Ecael

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

What I mean is: in ME1, the writers were like US Army Rangers: leading the way. They wrote the universe, then they wrote the basic story, the main plot, the side missions, and 1 minute quests. Then the designers and the artists made it into a game.

In ME2 the writers were like pizza delivery boys: hardly able to meet all requests, coming from every direction. They had to justify the thermal clips, then they had to write recruitment and loyalty missions for the cool badass squaddies, that really have little connection to the main story,  but also tailor those missions to accomodate the unique shooter experience of the level design. Then they had to put humans all over Omega and Illium because the face animators had to show off their stuff (which is not so evident even on Asari faces). Then we have this Cerberus logo issue, which is correctly identified as nosense, but incorrecly blamed on the writers.

The plot suffered not because the writers are bad, but because the plot is no longer a priority.

They kept the same ME1 team and Lead Writer and then added 5-6 more writers onto the team. How is the writing no longer a priority?

Thermal clips are hardly relevant to the main story. It may be a gameplay change, but it took about 2 lines (and Zaeed's cutscene with Vido) to retcon it, not half the game.

The missions are up to the writers first. Otherwise, the level designers would have nothing to work with. Thus, the decision to make Mass Effect 2 a recruiting drive was ultimately the decision of the writers - and I'm sure it wasn't in response to meeting anyone's demands (unless there were people who actually demanded double the number of squadmates for ME2 on the old ME1 boards).

Even then, a lot of the ME2 missions are relevant to at least one of the storylines set forth in Mass Effect 1 (not just the main Reaper plot). If 3 games were spent focusing on ONLY the Reapers, then it would become - like you said - very trite. That's when the trilogy starts to become like The Matrix - constantly hammering on how to deconstruct the Matrix instead of actual character development and other storylines.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "unique shooter experience", as the gameplay went from "shooting non-stop with Frictionless Materials" to "shooting non-stop and then reloading". Neither of those are very unique, and you still haven't explained how it would affect the writers. The custom character faces for humans, asari (and then krogan) in ME2 wouldn't affect how they write the main plot either, because that's always been a key element found in the current generation of BioWare games.

#322
Ecael

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smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...
You mention "fluent gameplay", "awesome looks" and "cool characters", but the writers are responsible for nothing in those last three phrases except for writing new characters (who are later designed and drawn by the Character Artists). Christina Norman leads Gameplay Design, Dusty Everman leads Level Design, and Jaemus Wurzbach leads Character Design.

Drew Karpyshyn and the others don't have anything to do with those three as writers.

I still don't see how anyone can associate "appealing to the more casual and younger" customer with what the writers did. It's irrational.

EDIT: Also, of course there wasn't any feedback before Mass Effect 1 came out - unless there was a Mass Effect 0 that I missed somewhere...

Yet there is a great disconnect between the two games.  If it's not the writers fault, whose?  EA's?

BioWare Mass-ing Montreal devs

If the writers were the same, (or unless Mac Walters was drinking the entire time), then someone else had creative vision and control over design.  One starts with an idea, by writing a story, and then compromising that story as the development cycle necessitates.  Unless they literally started by playing with Unreal and going "woo cool", then the level of compromise is at ridiculous levels, where writing was not the precedent, and the writers have to make do with what the director tells them.  Whereupon we get RPG cliché #140/Cutscene power to the max, Armor Is Useless, (a host of other tropes), a Terminator, and causal links between scenes that don't make sense.

And you don't get that host of other tropes from the original game? Like I said, the same writers worked on ME2 as well, and much of the same team:

http://www.mobygames...-effect/credits
http://www.mobygames...ffect-2/credits

At the beginning of ME1, Jenkins dies permanently right after you're told how to use Medi-gel, and then you find Nihlus' corpse sitting next to a pack of Medi-gel. Cutscene weakness to the max?

If you continue looking through the TVTropes website (and I have), there are just as many tropes used in the original Mass Effect as there was in Mass Effect 2. I still don't understand why you're only criticizing one of the games at this point.

And it's not like they've been somehow enthralled by the Unreal Engine when they've been using it for both games, or somehow dominated by EA publisher executives instead of Microsoft publisher executives.

You keep coming up with reasons to explain why both Mass Effect games can be terrible, but not Mass Effect 2. The point is, this is THE Mass Effect 2 story, and no amount of criticism can change it (and I doubt any of it will change the writers' opinions for Mass Effect 3). Christina Norman already announced they're keeping the same exact team for Mass Effect 3 at the GDC, so you seem to be setting yourself up for disappointment.

Then again, with your standards, I don't see how you would manage to enjoy any BioWare RPG or video game in general (including Dragon Age, which was published by EA).

#323
Zulu_DFA

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Ecael wrote...

Thermal clips are hardly relevant to the main story. It may be a gameplay change, but it took about 2 lines (and Zaeed's cutscene with Vido) to retcon it, not half the game.


If I were Mac Walters, this thermal ammo business alone would make me cringe and not care at all about the continuity between the two games. ME2 is a stand alone 3rd person shooter with RPG elements. Why should I care about the relevance of its plot to Mass Effect, a story driven RPG with 3rd person combat gameplay elements?

Ecael wrote...
Even then, a lot of the ME2 missions are relevant to at least one of the storylines set forth in Mass Effect 1 (not just the main Reaper plot). If 3 games were spent focusing on ONLY the Reapers, then it would become - like you said - very trite. That's when the trilogy starts to become like The Matrix - constantly hammering on how to deconstruct the Matrix instead of actual character development and other storylines.


"Other storylines" were not present in ME1. Expanding on the Quarians vs. Geth and genophage is based on the fascination of fans with certain characters.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 mai 2010 - 03:03 .


#324
smudboy

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Ecael wrote...
And you don't get that host of other tropes from the original game? Like I said, the same writers worked on ME2 as well, and much of the same team:

http://www.mobygames...-effect/credits
http://www.mobygames...ffect-2/credits

At the beginning of ME1, Jenkins dies permanently right after you're told how to use Medi-gel, and then you find Nihlus' corpse sitting next to a pack of Medi-gel. Cutscene weakness to the max?

If you continue looking through the TVTropes website (and I have), there are just as many tropes used in the original Mass Effect as there was in Mass Effect 2. I still don't understand why you're only criticizing one of the games at this point.


Because the writing in ME1 was actually good.  Where the flaws in ME1 and the tropes present weren't so bad, ME2's tropes and flaws hurt my brain.  Tropes by themselves are (usually) neither good nor bad, but the sheer number of compounding flaws makes it, yet again, ridiculous.  If you didn't see the wonderous farce that was ME2, then congratulations.

And it's not like they've been somehow enthralled by the Unreal Engine when they've been using it for both games, or somehow dominated by EA publisher executives instead of Microsoft publisher executives.

You keep coming up with reasons to explain why both Mass Effect games can be terrible, but not Mass Effect 2. The point is, this is THE Mass Effect 2 story, and no amount of criticism can change it (and I doubt any of it will change the writers' opinions for Mass Effect 3). Christina Norman already announced they're keeping the same exact team for Mass Effect 3 at the GDC, so you seem to be setting yourself up for disappointment.

I'm quite sure I only did a series of videos on ME2's plot.

I'm not here to change BioWare's opinion of itself, or yours.  I'm here to exercise my brain and have a cathartic release from stupid.  In this event, it involves laughing mostly at you and people who share your opinions.  But you'll only see the arguments and points I make, and subsequent videos

Then again, with your standards, I don't see how you would manage to enjoy any BioWare RPG or video game in general (including Dragon Age, which was published by EA).

What standards?  Logic?  Reason?  For things to make sense?  For a sequel to actually be a sequel?  For an overarching plot to be an overarching plot?  For a space opera to simply be a simple tale, and not some convoluted mess of characters that have little to no relevance?  What, you think I want to feel this way over a piece of **** plot?

#325
Massadonious1

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