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[Ecael]

InvaderErl wrote...

I could make the same argument about Saren and the ending of Mass Effect 1.  If they had just pointed some cameras at the Mu relay on either end they would have noticed the Normandy coming through, stealth systems or not.

Which was just lazy on his part since by this point he should have known that Shepard would be coming in his stealth ship.

As for the Omega relay, I doubt the Terminus systems powers are going to be overjoyed over Cerberus setting up shop/mining the relay of somebody that they do business with. Who's going to send a  fleet? The Alliance/Council, yeah I'm sure that won't start a political incident.

This. I also detailed it on the Anti-Plot Hole thread.

Mass Effect 2 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 1, and Mass Effect 1 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 2.

So, who wants to debate whether we'll actually find alien technology on Mars within the next 150 years?

Modifié par Ecael, 10 juin 2010 - 03:26 .

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...
This. I also detailed it on the Anti-Plot Hole thread.

Mass Effect 2 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 1, and Mass Effect 1 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 2.

So, who wants to debate whether we'll actually find alien technology on Mars within the next 150 years?

I don't think the ME2 Shuttle Mission comes close to anything in ME1.

Some are good, but most are...oy.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ecael wrote...


Mass Effect 2 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 1, and Mass Effect 1 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 2.

"coughbull****cough" ME2 might get some underseved bashing when it comes to gameplay. But to claim the plot is as good as ME1 is just being blind.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Ecael wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I could make the same argument about Saren and the ending of Mass Effect 1.  If they had just pointed some cameras at the Mu relay on either end they would have noticed the Normandy coming through, stealth systems or not.

Which was just lazy on his part since by this point he should have known that Shepard would be coming in his stealth ship.

As for the Omega relay, I doubt the Terminus systems powers are going to be overjoyed over Cerberus setting up shop/mining the relay of somebody that they do business with. Who's going to send a  fleet? The Alliance/Council, yeah I'm sure that won't start a political incident.

This. I also detailed it on the Anti-Plot Hole thread.

Mass Effect 2 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 1, and Mass Effect 1 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 2.

So, who wants to debate whether we'll actually find alien technology on Mars within the next 150 years?

makes no sense (free roaming was great though) using a mars rover vehicle as exlporation transportation


makes much sense


would be awesome... 

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 10 juin 2010 - 04:29 .

[InvaderErl]

Oh yes, free roaming across a blank wasteland was amazing. I just couldn't get enough of the scenery, hey look there's a hill. I wonder what's behind that, oh look ANOTHER blank hill. Wow, such exploration.

Pretty much this over and over
and over
and over
and over

Lizardviking wrote...

Ecael wrote...


Mass Effect 2 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 1, and Mass Effect 1 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 2.

"coughbull****cough" ME2 might get some underseved bashing when it comes to gameplay. But to claim the plot is as good as ME1 is just being blind.

ME1's got some pretty big plot holes of its own. Ecael's thread is great proof of that.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 10 juin 2010 - 04:31 .

[Pinkflamingo22]

much of what is said by the guy on that review is false. The plot isn't that bad.

[glacier1701]

Pinkflamingo22 wrote...

much of what is said by the guy on that review is false. The plot isn't that bad.

 Care to elaborate why you think that? My own opinion is that the plot/story for ME2 was the wrong one entirely. Even what we got make no sense in what it accomplishes which is to end us at the same point as where we were at the end of ME1.

[InvaderErl]

Dark energy, the Geth/Quarian war along with admiral Xen, the increased focus on Cerberus and the Illusive Man, Reaper reproduction, EDI, Harbinger, Reaper interest in humanity and Wrex rebuilding the Krogans, the Rachni promising to lend assistance (the last two for Paragons) were all introduced and will obviously play an important role in 3.

Now, I bring this up quite a bit but I think it bears repeating.

"Although many now consider it to be the best film in the saga,[24] The Empire Strikes Back initially received mixed reviews."

"Some critics had problems with the story but admitted the film was a technical achievement. For instance, Vincent Canby of The New York Times wrote a largely negative review.[26] Judith Martin of The Washington Post complained of the film's "middle-of-the-story" plot, which featured no particular beginning or end"

http://en.wikipedia....s_Back#Reaction

Modifié par InvaderErl, 10 juin 2010 - 05:24 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

InvaderErl wrote...


ME1's got some pretty big plot holes of its own. Ecael's thread is great proof of that.

Atleast it doesn't use terrible plot devices.

[InvaderErl]

Really?



The entire game is driven by how dumb Saren is.



If he hadn't declared war on the Thorian, Shepard wouldn't have been able to beat him.



If he hadn't tried to raise an army of Krogan (something which really made no sense), then Shepard wouldn't have been able to beat him.



If he had destroyed the beacon on Vimire he would have won rather than keeping it as a paper weight for some reason.



Saren had a million opportunities to win the game and took none of them.

[bjdbwea]

Lizardviking wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

ME1's got some pretty big plot holes of its own. Ecael's thread is great proof of that.

Atleast it doesn't use terrible plot devices.

And ME 1 doesn't have a ridiculously dumb ending. Whoever came up with that whole idea of a "human reaper" anyway? At least the final mission is half-decent, but it's ruined by this terrible twist.

Come to think of it, the idea seems to have been stolen from DA. It wasn't really convincing there, but in ME 2 it's simply idiotic.

[InvaderErl]

bjdbwea wrote...


And ME 1 doesn't have a ridiculously dumb ending. Whoever came up with that whole idea of a "human reaper" anyway? At least the final mission is half-decent, but it's ruined by this terrible twist.

Come to think of it, the idea seems to have been stolen from DA. It wasn't really convincing there, but in ME 2 it's simply idiotic.

It wasn't the idea that was stupid it was just the execution, if it had looked more squid-like I suspect many more people wouldn't have had a problem. Bioware tends to have a problem with its boss characters in general for some reason, Frog Saren looked impressive but he was a joke to fight, and most people have already done the Archdemon fight twice (the High Dragon actually being harder) by that point.

(Out of curiosity what were you referring to in Dragon Age?)

Modifié par InvaderErl, 10 juin 2010 - 05:51 .

[bjdbwea]

Well, if you look at how reapers are created and how darkspawn are created, there are some similarities. Just like between the collectors and the darkspawn in general.

I have to disagree with you on that it was just the execution. The fight is quite easy indeed, and as smudboy's plot analysis pointed out, the glass tubes are laughable. First because there's no way it would be built with such a weak point in the first place. Second because there's no way anything could be created like that. Maybe BioWare just didn't want to "bore" the players with the details, but more likely they just couldn't be bothered to think it through.

But beyond that, I think the whole notion of a human reaper is ridiculous. It... just doesn't make sense. Which is okay, because in ME 1 we couldn't understand the motives of this ancient machine race either. But better a mystery than a totally contrived and nonsensical "explanation". Kind of like with the Force in SW. But actually I hoped the real reasoning of the reapers would become clear in ME 2 or 3. If this kind of recreation is their driving force, well, that would be quite lame, and it would leave several things unexplained. Oh, and how did they come to be in the first place?

As far as Saren is concerned, I do think his fight was a bit harder. But more importantly, the plot worked. And if we compare it with DA again, the writers for that game knew that name- and speechless enemies just don't cut it, you need villains with a name and a face.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 10 juin 2010 - 06:50 .

[InvaderErl]

bjdbwea wrote...

Well, if you look at how reapers are created and how darkspawn are created, there are some similarities. Just like between the collectors and the darkspawn in general.

Oh, I liked that bit in Dragon Age. Made the Darkspawn a bit more horrific I thought.

bjdbwea wrote...
I have to disagree with you on that it was just the execution. The fight is quite easy indeed, and as smudboy's plot analysis pointed out, the glass tubes are laughable. First because there's no way it would be built with such a weak point in the first place. Second because there's no way anything could be created like that. Maybe BioWare just didn't want to "bore" the players with the details, but more likely they just couldn't be bothered to think it through.

Well, I'd throw the difficulty of the fight in with the execution.

As for the realism of creating something like that, this is a series that is far from realistic - you've got things like blue human chicks, FTL that goes completely unexplained and magic powers.

bjdbwea wrote...
But beyond that, I think the whole notion of a human reaper is ridiculous. It... just doesn't make sense. Which is okay, because in ME 1 we couldn't understand the motives of this ancient machine race either. But better a mystery than a totally contrived and nonsensical "explanation". Kind of like with the Force in SW. But actually I hoped the real reasoning of the reapers would become clear in ME 2 or 3. If this kind of recreation is their driving force, well, that would be quite lame, and it would leave several things unexplained. Oh, and how did they come to be in the first place?

I actually think they feel that they are saving the galaxy from something, hence the line about Reapers being your salvation - even if they are doing it in a totally dick way. I'm guessing this dark energy thing will play into their motivations a great deal.

I doubt we've gotten the whole story since there was so much alluded to at the end.

bjdbwea wrote...
As far as Saren is concerned, I do think his fight was a bit harder. But more importantly, the plot worked. And if we compare it with DA again, the writers for that game knew that name- and speechless enemies just don't cut it, you need villains with a name and a face.

I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here.

The Archdemon didn't speak either.

[Ecael]

Lizardviking wrote...

Ecael wrote...


Mass Effect 2 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 1, and Mass Effect 1 makes as much sense as Mass Effect 2.

"coughbull****cough" ME2 might get some underseved bashing when it comes to gameplay. But to claim the plot is as good as ME1 is just being blind.

Have you done a thorough analysis of Mass Effect 1's plot or are you just nitpicking at Mass Effect 2's plot holes and saying that it fails?

Like I told smud, if you were able to do that, then you should apply to be a writer at BioWare:

http://www.bioware.c...bs/austin_jobs/

They're hiring right now. Plus, you'd get to work with Drew Karpyshyn.

bjdbwea wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
ME1's got some pretty big plot holes of its own. Ecael's thread is great proof of that.

Atleast it doesn't use terrible plot devices.

And ME 1 doesn't have a ridiculously dumb ending. Whoever came up with that whole idea of a "human reaper" anyway? At least the final mission is half-decent, but it's ruined by this terrible twist.

Come to think of it, the idea seems to have been stolen from DA. It wasn't really convincing there, but in ME 2 it's simply idiotic.

Actually, the final boss was supposed to involve taking over Collector turrets to fire at the semi-formed Reaper, I believe. Since the decision to remove that was made after the sound bites have already been recorded, I'm guessing someone ran into a major glitch with that battle, and they had to simplify it to keep it bug-free.

The result was an extremely easy boss, especially if you manage to shoot down 2, 3 or 4 tubes at once (the latter is possible with Adrenaline Rush). That stops the Collectors from spawning during the actual fight, which allows you to stand at the edge of the platform and fire non-stop at the Human Reaper without fear of dying.

Modifié par Ecael, 10 juin 2010 - 07:08 .

[bjdbwea]

InvaderErl wrote...

I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here.

The Archdemon didn't speak either.

Actually, he did, the Warden just didn't understand him (yet).

What I meant though, is that we at least have Loghain and other enemies who do speak, and with whom we can communicate. That is important. Nameless and irrelevant enemies are typical for shooters, but a game that focuses on the story has to offer more.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 10 juin 2010 - 07:16 .

[mrc390]

It makes up for bad story with brilliant character development in my opinion,in mass effect 1 the only intresting characters were Ashley,Liara and Kaiden too an extent.In mass effect 2 I find every character has something intresting to say and makes me want to visit them all between every mission(well,maybe not Miranda)

[InvaderErl]

bjdbwea wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here.

The Archdemon didn't speak either.

Actually, he did, the Warden just didn't understand him (yet).

What I meant though, is that we at least have Loghain and other enemies who do speak, and with whom we can communicate. That is important. Nameless and irrelevant enemies are typical for shooters, but a game that focuses on the story has to offer more.

I understand what you're saying and you're not wrong but it didn't bother me so much this time around.

I imagine Harbinger will get more of a chance to talk now that they've done the Reaper reveal.

[bjdbwea]

It did bother me. I find the whole main plot boring and badly written and presented. That's worse than just a few plot holes, which of course it does have too. I wouldn't have expected this from BioWare, even less in the successor to ME 1 which was fantastic in that regard.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 10 juin 2010 - 07:45 .

[InvaderErl]

Um, kay sorry you didn't enjoy it.



*shrugs*

[smudboy]

InvaderErl wrote...
I imagine Harbinger will get more of a chance to talk now that they've done the Reaper reveal.

DON'T SAY IT.

[glacier1701]

smudboy wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
I imagine Harbinger will get more of a chance to talk now that they've done the Reaper reveal.

DON'T SAY IT.

I'LL SAY IT - ASSUMMING DIRECT CONTROL

[InvaderErl]

The thread is now over!



I hope you're happy.

[Mister Mida]

Ecael wrote...
Actually, the final boss was supposed to involve taking over Collector turrets to fire at the semi-formed Reaper, I believe. Since the decision to remove that was made after the sound bites have already been recorded, I'm guessing someone ran into a major glitch with that battle, and they had to simplify it to keep it bug-free.

Where did you get that idea from? It sounds all fun and all but seriously, what is your source that says that was their original idea?

[SkullandBonesmember]

bjdbwea wrote...

And ME 1 doesn't have a ridiculously dumb ending. Whoever came up with that whole idea of a "human reaper" anyway? At least the final mission is half-decent, but it's ruined by this terrible twist.

Come to think of it, the idea seems to have been stolen from DA. It wasn't really convincing there, but in ME 2 it's simply idiotic.

Never played Dragon Age, but I don't think a human reaper is bad IN THEORY. If any developer could make it work it's Bioware, Fell flat on its face in execution though.

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 10 juin 2010 - 09:31 .