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ME2: A Video Plot Analysis


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#501
Ecael

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Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Actually, the final boss was supposed to involve taking over Collector turrets to fire at the semi-formed Reaper, I believe. Since the decision to remove that was made after the sound bites have already been recorded, I'm guessing someone ran into a major glitch with that battle, and they had to simplify it to keep it bug-free.

Where did you get that idea from? It sounds all fun and all but seriously, what is your source that says that was their original idea?

The sound files.

http://www.mediafire.com/?dy0mum4yqzd

Thane: Use the console to link the turrets to your weapon!

#502
bjdbwea

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SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Never played Dragon Age, but I don't think a human reaper is bad IN THEORY. If any developer could make it work it's Bioware, Fell flat on its face in execution though.


How would you do it? I can't really think of any way that wouldn't look and feel contrived and funny. It would definitely require more explanation and background. Bottom line is though, it's not worth the effort, as there would be numerous other better directions in which the plot could have gone.

#503
Mister Mida

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Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Actually, the final boss was supposed to involve taking over Collector turrets to fire at the semi-formed Reaper, I believe. Since the decision to remove that was made after the sound bites have already been recorded, I'm guessing someone ran into a major glitch with that battle, and they had to simplify it to keep it bug-free.

Where did you get that idea from? It sounds all fun and all but seriously, what is your source that says that was their original idea?

The sound files.

http://www.mediafire.com/?dy0mum4yqzd

Thane: Use the console to link the turrets to your weapon!

Hmm, interesting. Still it doesn't give much detail so it could be like anything.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 10 juin 2010 - 09:57 .


#504
Ecael

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Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Actually, the final boss was supposed to involve taking over Collector turrets to fire at the semi-formed Reaper, I believe. Since the decision to remove that was made after the sound bites have already been recorded, I'm guessing someone ran into a major glitch with that battle, and they had to simplify it to keep it bug-free.

Where did you get that idea from? It sounds all fun and all but seriously, what is your source that says that was their original idea?

The sound files.

http://www.mediafire.com/?dy0mum4yqzd

Thane: Use the console to link the turrets to your weapon!

Hmm, interesting. Still it doesn't give much detail so it could be like anything.

Each file is located in a folder called endgm2_bossfight.

Judging by what each of them are saying, you were originally supposed to link your weapon to a console, and then aim the turrets like you would with your weapon.

That way, you kill the final boss with turrets rather than with your pistol.

#505
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Ecael wrote...


Have you done a thorough analysis of Mass Effect 1's plot or are you just nitpicking at Mass Effect 2's plot holes and saying that it fails?


No. I hate the ME2 plot for difrent reasons. Yes some the plotholes do suck abit, but they just something you have to live with (like those in ME1). There are mutliple reasons why I don't like ME2's in the story department and i'm gonna list some of them.

1: Shepard's death and following resurection is nothing more than an excuse to Seperate Shepard from the old crew, and preserving the status quo of mass effect . Which is.

A: The council don't believe you.
B: The alliance is the most incompetent goverment in the galaxy.

2: While I was disapointed with certain ME1 crewmembers getting cameo'd, I still trusted Casey hudson on his word about the cameo's being short but good. Then when I play ME2 it turns out that the Liara cameo is a complete mess.

3: Some of the new crewmembers feel utterly pointless.

Thane anybody?

4: Harbinger... What a lame villain!

There are more, but these are the biggest problems I have with ME2.

#506
calabain

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Lizardviking wrote...

Ecael wrote...


Have you done a thorough analysis of Mass Effect 1's plot or are you just nitpicking at Mass Effect 2's plot holes and saying that it fails?


No. I hate the ME2 plot for difrent reasons. Yes some the plotholes do suck abit, but they just something you have to live with (like those in ME1). There are mutliple reasons why I don't like ME2's in the story department and i'm gonna list some of them.

1: Shepard's death and following resurection is nothing more than an excuse to Seperate Shepard from the old crew, and preserving the status quo of mass effect . Which is.

A: The council don't believe you.
B: The alliance is the most incompetent goverment in the galaxy.

2: While I was disapointed with certain ME1 crewmembers getting cameo'd, I still trusted Casey hudson on his word about the cameo's being short but good. Then when I play ME2 it turns out that the Liara cameo is a complete mess.

3: Some of the new crewmembers feel utterly pointless.

Thane anybody?

4: Harbinger... What a lame villain!

There are more, but these are the biggest problems I have with ME2.




1. Actually I personally feel that killing Shepard was more of an excuse to start the character over at level 1 than anything.

2.  Cameo's suck, even if handled alright, the old team needs to come back for ME3 or the game WILL suffer (ARE YOU LISTENING BIOWARE?!)

3. They do, although Thane is pretty cool, I feel like they could have scrapped a member or two to add in more collector killing

4. I actually think Harbinger had potential to be awesome, they just were trying to hide the big reveal about him till the end and ended up not giving him enough facetime

#507
Kanye150

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I just hate ME2 plot. I called ME1 the best game ever, but ME2:

(SPOILER WARNING).

I hate the collectors, and more the fact that they are modified protheans.

I hate the end Bossfight, these Collectors are supposed to be intelligent, but they create a human just to imitate Shepard. And these new human reaper is easier to kill than some other enemies.

I hate that's they make new enemies, In ME1 they never talked about Collectors. The next enemies probably will be new too.



The story itself doesn't fit with ME1. Don't create a new reaper, try to send the army (of reapers) u talked about the whole ME1 and 2.

I may say some stupid things but i just don't like ME2.

#508
Mox Ruuga

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Image IPB

Great set of videos, smudboy! Very much agreed with your opinions about this benighted sequel.

I laughed out loud when I saw Baby Arnold captaining the Reaper. Perhaps Mass Effect 2 was actually a ****** take on purpose? Image IPB

#509
Skodmunk

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The main problem with ME2's story is that it is not as epic as ME1, in ME1 it felt like you were literally minutes away from the reaper invasion.

In ME2 you didn't do anything of the sort, It is implied that the collectors would need ALOT more people to finish the reaper and that they would attack earth to gather them up.

The collectors would not stand a chance a doing that, the human fleet stopped an actual reaper and would have no problem with the one collector ship even without Shepard being there.

The whole story of ME2 could have been told in an 2 hour DLC for ME1.

#510
CroGamer002

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Skodmunk wrote...

The main problem with ME2's story is that it is not as epic as ME1, in ME1 it felt like you were literally minutes away from the reaper invasion.
In ME2 you didn't do anything of the sort, It is implied that the collectors would need ALOT more people to finish the reaper and that they would attack earth to gather them up.
The collectors would not stand a chance a doing that, the human fleet stopped an actual reaper and would have no problem with the one collector ship even without Shepard being there.
The whole story of ME2 could have been told in an 2 hour DLC for ME1.


*facepalm*

#511
Burdokva

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Smudboy, I'm midway through your review, and I must say, I agree on many things. Not all, but the majority. Also, a nice, calm and well made exposition - I'm getting so tired of the trendy web-reviewer who need to shot, play overly loud music in the background, mix effects etc. Finally, I can concentrate on the actual exposition!



I must say, there were points of Mass Effect 2's plot that were fantastic; as I've talked with other in a DA Group here, while Mass Effect (the original) had a strong overall story and decent character, Mass Effect 2 is the opposite - excellent characters, but overall a weak main storyline.



It's also one of those experiences that sadly don't get better as you replay it. To the contrary, on my very first replay I was generally impressed. The subsequent ones, the story just began unraveling ...

#512
ADLegend21

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I had to FORCE myself to watch past the half way point of the first Video. it was excruciating to hear you drone over and over about how "Oh he collector ship is right ther just shoot it evne though we can't get to their base without the information" or "oh wilson jsut brough someone back to life whywould he try to kill them" blah blah blah de frakking blah. the thing that annoyed me the msot was the comlaining about a shepard who's background involved cerberus killing his entire squad and then recruiting him ALONG with them having Shepard die, which advanced the Universe and characters from the first game along with allowing you to customize your Shepard or make changes to your shepard. I guess you haven't heard of "suspension of disbelief". Oh and don't get me started on the complaining about the characters and loyalty missions. you go to war you need an army. the Alliance is stretched thin from the casualties it took from the battle with Sovereign (especially if you saved the council) so with a badly damaged fleet the collectors could take out the alliance no problem you saw what their ship did to the SR-1 and htat was the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet so taking out ships that are weaker than the ship they annihilated should be no problem!

#513
FourSixEight

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Who the hell bumped this? Do any of you people realize he's trolling you?

#514
Guest_Lucretion_*

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FourSixEight wrote...

Who the hell bumped this? Do any of you people realize he's trolling you?


A troll would be someone whose sole purpose is to irritate and aggravate people and while his review certainly accomplishes the aforementioned to some individuals. It is his entitlement as a fan of the Mass Effect series to offer a negative opinion. Simply because you are in disagreement, does not entail trolling. In actuality, you are trolling by definition considering your post contributed nothing to the debate or discussion.

I watched the review to its completion and frankly enjoyed it, albeit there was portions I disagreed with your logic or felt you were nit-picking. Granted you admitted to having nit-pick specific angles. One large qualm I had with the sequel was the lackluster continuality between the games. People would argue that the inclusion of Wrex and Ash/Kaiden would have resulted in significant difficulty due to their respective death possibilities. My counter argument comes in a single word. "So?" Bioware heavily affirmed our choices would have an impact, we would feel the weight of decision throughout the trilogy and upon the first moment of difficulty, they turned tail and fled. Every choice from the previous game and the plot itself - as your review stated - ultimately had a scaling degree of importance with the vast majority achieving absolutely nothing.

Even if Wrex reunited with you for a mission or two and this content was absence had you killed him on Virmire would have sufficied to some degree. However the promise the cameos would have a definitive role in the game was hogwash. What did the Rachni do? Nothing as of yet. The former cast? Cop out cameos.

Where I stand firm on your opinion is the lack of overall threat the Reapers imposed and your concept of the Collector General being a forced enslaved Prothen attempting to reach Shepard and aid him when his mind was not corrupted would have definitely provided an intriguing antagonist alongside the role Saren did. It fit with what the Repears do. Saren was a early stage of indoctrination and his end-game 'mutation' could have been seen as foreshadowing to what a long term effect would have been.

Some advice, for future reference do not begin your review or documentary by citing the material is complete garbage. Even if this is your opinion that is best left for the curtain call. By doing so initially, you open yourself to immediate hostility from peopel who cannot grasp a negative opinion of their favorite game. Just a means to avoid people flaming you openly. It is inevitable however better to have them watch portions of the video first.

Modifié par Lucretion, 18 juillet 2010 - 06:13 .


#515
atheelogos

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bjdbwea wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Never played Dragon Age, but I don't think a human reaper is bad IN THEORY. If any developer could make it work it's Bioware, Fell flat on its face in execution though.


How would you do it? I can't really think of any way that wouldn't look and feel contrived and funny. It would definitely require more explanation and background. Bottom line is though, it's not worth the effort, as there would be numerous other better directions in which the plot could have gone.

My own theory is that the Reaper takes the general shape of the species its made from. That shape is then put into a familiar looking Reaper shell.

#516
FlyinElk212

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Skodmunk wrote...

The main problem with ME2's story is that it is not as epic as ME1, in ME1 it felt like you were literally minutes away from the reaper invasion.
In ME2 you didn't do anything of the sort, It is implied that the collectors would need ALOT more people to finish the reaper and that they would attack earth to gather them up.
The collectors would not stand a chance a doing that, the human fleet stopped an actual reaper and would have no problem with the one collector ship even without Shepard being there.
The whole story of ME2 could have been told in an 2 hour DLC for ME1.


We have a winner. Therein's the biggest problem with ME2. It's a glorified DLC.

The plot gets only 3 things accomplished: it does nice exposition on the various race conflicts. It shows that the Reapers are interested in humans/Shepard. And it shows that the Reapers are coming. Again.

#517
atheelogos

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FlyinElk212 wrote...

Skodmunk wrote...

The main problem with ME2's story is that it is not as epic as ME1, in ME1 it felt like you were literally minutes away from the reaper invasion.
In ME2 you didn't do anything of the sort, It is implied that the collectors would need ALOT more people to finish the reaper and that they would attack earth to gather them up.
The collectors would not stand a chance a doing that, the human fleet stopped an actual reaper and would have no problem with the one collector ship even without Shepard being there.
The whole story of ME2 could have been told in an 2 hour DLC for ME1.


We have a winner. Therein's the biggest problem with ME2. It's a glorified DLC.

The plot gets only 3 things accomplished: it does nice exposition on the various race conflicts. It shows that the Reapers are interested in humans/Shepard. And it shows that the Reapers are coming. Again.

And don't forget about the base. Thats really the biggest story choice in ME2

#518
Mir5

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How did I end up here? Anyways, Mass 2 ain't bad, it's just awfully messy. I have no idea what the game was about except being a preparation for Mass 3. And there are too many things that arouse the feeling of "is that really believable?", as that set of vids proves.

Was the human collection supposed to be motivating threat? I was more concerned about Cerberus having so much power and resources.

#519
SomeBug

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FlyinElk212 wrote...

Skodmunk wrote...

The main problem with ME2's story is that it is not as epic as ME1, in ME1 it felt like you were literally minutes away from the reaper invasion.
In ME2 you didn't do anything of the sort, It is implied that the collectors would need ALOT more people to finish the reaper and that they would attack earth to gather them up.
The collectors would not stand a chance a doing that, the human fleet stopped an actual reaper and would have no problem with the one collector ship even without Shepard being there.
The whole story of ME2 could have been told in an 2 hour DLC for ME1.


We have a winner. Therein's the biggest problem with ME2. It's a glorified DLC.

The plot gets only 3 things accomplished: it does nice exposition on the various race conflicts. It shows that the Reapers are interested in humans/Shepard. And it shows that the Reapers are coming. Again.


There's more to it than that. You're simplifying things to the point of absurdity and ignoring a lot of implied narrative which is seemingly too subtle for you. Like the Dark Energy hooks and the very nature of the Reapers themselves.

Me2 was not a game about answers or conclusions. It was and is the middle part of a trilogy. It's role in said trilogy is to expand the universe (which it achieved), to elaborate on the core threat (which is also did) and to set up the final act of the play with encroaching threat and newly resolved drive from the protagonists (which is most certainly did).

Saying the whole story is Me2 could have been told in a 2 hour DLC indicates to me that

a) You don't understand narratives more complex than 'This happened, then this happened. Then they all won the day'.

B) You missed the entire point of the story entirely, forgetting that its job as a part 2 is not to satisfy all of your questions.

c) You think the plot of Me2 is the focus, and not the character development, established universe.

Oops for you I guess.

#520
Yojimbo_Ltd

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SomeBug wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Skodmunk wrote...

The main problem with ME2's story is that it is not as epic as ME1, in ME1 it felt like you were literally minutes away from the reaper invasion.
In ME2 you didn't do anything of the sort, It is implied that the collectors would need ALOT more people to finish the reaper and that they would attack earth to gather them up.
The collectors would not stand a chance a doing that, the human fleet stopped an actual reaper and would have no problem with the one collector ship even without Shepard being there.
The whole story of ME2 could have been told in an 2 hour DLC for ME1.


We have a winner. Therein's the biggest problem with ME2. It's a glorified DLC.

The plot gets only 3 things accomplished: it does nice exposition on the various race conflicts. It shows that the Reapers are interested in humans/Shepard. And it shows that the Reapers are coming. Again.


There's more to it than that. You're simplifying things to the point of absurdity and ignoring a lot of implied narrative which is seemingly too subtle for you. Like the Dark Energy hooks and the very nature of the Reapers themselves.

Me2 was not a game about answers or conclusions. It was and is the middle part of a trilogy. It's role in said trilogy is to expand the universe (which it achieved), to elaborate on the core threat (which is also did) and to set up the final act of the play with encroaching threat and newly resolved drive from the protagonists (which is most certainly did).

Saying the whole story is Me2 could have been told in a 2 hour DLC indicates to me that

a) You don't understand narratives more complex than 'This happened, then this happened. Then they all won the day'.

B) You missed the entire point of the story entirely, forgetting that its job as a part 2 is not to satisfy all of your questions.

c) You think the plot of Me2 is the focus, and not the character development, established universe.

Oops for you I guess.


Don't waste your time man. Some people simply don't get it...

#521
smudboy

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SomeBug wrote...
There's more to it than that. You're simplifying things to the point of absurdity and ignoring a lot of implied narrative which is seemingly too subtle for you. Like the Dark Energy hooks and the very nature of the Reapers themselves.

And there: you've just described them.  How is that subtle?  You've just described the "subtle" "hooks" of "dark energy" and the "very nature of Reapers themselves."  Oh wait, scratch the second one.  Tell me: what is the very nature of Reapers themselves?  This should be good.

Damn you subtlety!  Being so not-subtle.

Me2 was not a game about answers or conclusions. It was and is the middle part of a trilogy. It's role in said trilogy is to expand the universe (which it achieved), to elaborate on the core threat (which is also did) and to set up the final act of the play with encroaching threat and newly resolved drive from the protagonists (which is most certainly did).

Expand the universe?  That's like saying "It told a story."  Well gee.  That would happen regardless.

The only thing it did was retcon the Reapers from ME1.

Note: there are no "rules" to a trilogy of what it should or shouldn't be.

Saying the whole story is Me2 could have been told in a 2 hour DLC indicates to me that

a) You don't understand narratives more complex than 'This happened, then this happened. Then they all won the day'.
B) You missed the entire point of the story entirely, forgetting that its job as a part 2 is not to satisfy all of your questions.
c) You think the plot of Me2 is the focus, and not the character development, established universe.
Oops for you I guess.

And yet it could.  I wish they replaced all of ME2's plot, and have it kick off with LOTSB after Shepard escapes Lazarus.  We know the SB has sent probes into the Omega-4 relay that have returned.  The SB is leagues ahead of Cerberus main mission to stop the Collectors.  Yes: that one little tidbit from the SB drone completely undermined the validity and intelligence of TIM's grand information planning and network to stop the badguys, and the SB was just scouting for intel.

#522
SomeBug

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The true nature of the Reapers is that they are not, as Mass Effect 1 suggested, a machine race they are a combination of biological material and robotics.



Furthermore, they are not a singular mind but like the Geth, a platform which contains many consciousnesses as a hive mind. Sovereign was not a 'person' but a group of dozens, hundreds of Reapers all within the same ship.





You used the word retcon but I don't think you understand what that means. Elaborating on and explaining previously unknown topics such as 'what are the Reapers', 'how do they live and work' etc is not a retroactive change. It is called character development. Learn what that is.


#523
smudboy

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SomeBug wrote...

The true nature of the Reapers is that they are not, as Mass Effect 1 suggested, a machine race they are a combination of biological material and robotics.

Sovereign: "We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."
Sovereign: "Oh right, but we need you to reproduce or something.  So you're kinda like, pretty important."

Furthermore, they are not a singular mind but like the Geth, a platform which contains many consciousnesses as a hive mind. Sovereign was not a 'person' but a group of dozens, hundreds of Reapers all within the same ship.

Proof?  The Geth and Reapers seem to be exactly the same minds, save the Reapers probably have many more minds.

You used the word retcon but I don't think you understand what that means. Elaborating on and explaining previously unknown topics such as 'what are the Reapers', 'how do they live and work' etc is not a retroactive change. It is called character development. Learn what that is.

I'd say Sovereign declaring humans nothing, and then having them completely intricate to their reproduction would be a retcon.

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT?  ARE YOU SERIOUS?  OMG!

*runs around house laughing at this idiot*

Oh wait you might just have a different definition of character development.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry I can't help it.  Bioware forums keep getting funnier.

Modifié par smudboy, 13 septembre 2010 - 01:54 .


#524
ExtremeOne

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That first reason basically summed it up nicely

#525
FlyinElk212

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SomeBug wrote...
Saying the whole story is Me2 could have been told in a 2 hour DLC indicates to me that

a) You don't understand narratives more complex than 'This happened, then this happened. Then they all won the day'.

B) You missed the entire point of the story entirely, forgetting that its job as a part 2 is not to satisfy all of your questions.

c) You think the plot of Me2 is the focus, and not the character development, established universe.

Oops for you I guess.


Petty insults'll get you nowhere, man. Let's try to keep this civil:

SomeBug wrote...

There's more to it than that. You're simplifying things to the point of absurdity and ignoring a lot of implied narrative which is seemingly too subtle for you. Like the Dark Energy hooks and the very nature of the Reapers themselves.

Me2 was not a game about answers or conclusions. It was and is the middle part of a trilogy. It's role in said
trilogy is to expand the universe (which it achieved), to elaborate on the core threat (which is also did) and to set up the final act of the play with encroaching threat and newly resolved drive from the protagonists (which is most certainly did).


But see, it DIDN'T elaborate on the core threat. It provided subtle hints with the Dark Energy buildup and the "Prepare these Humans for Ascension" line, but it STILL did not state the true intentions and purpose of our enemy: the Reapers. Why do they Reap in the first place? Why their interest in humans/Shepard, especially when they had no qualms with killing him off in the beginning of the story? Are they responsible for the dark energy build-up or will that be their downfall? For that matter, what IS the weakness of the Reapers?

I agree that my original statement was a little skewed, in that of course that's not the only thing the story truly accomplished. But you cannot state that the story managed to do all the things you mentioned: it did nothing to further set up the final act of the play than ME1 did. What's different from both endings of the game? The Reapers are still coming. We still have no idea how to defeat them. We still don't know why they're doing this in the first place.

The second part of the trilogy doesn't HAVE to answer all questions, but it should at least answer some, especially those pertaining to the main plotline. In fact, most stories of Trilogy Arcs go like this: Act 1, get introduced to the threat. Act 2, learn more about the threat. Act 3, Find a way, and defeat the threat. Examples: In The Matrix: Reloaded, we learned the true nature of the functioning of The Matrix, as well as the true role of "The One". In Terminator 2, we learned the extent of the future that lies ahead, as well as the means to fight against such future (Saving John Connor). In Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back, we learn of the real threat (Emperor  Palpatine), as well as the motivations of Darth Vader.

All of the plot twists and revelations within Mass Effect 2 did nothing to, as you said, "said up the final act of the play". They simply arose more questions and brought up seeming trivialities (Collectors are Protheans, but does that revelation HELP US in the main plotline? Does it help us find a way to stop the Reapers? Not really). The questions of the main plotline remain unanswered. And while the story might have shown that Reapers aren't infalliable, and as you said, might've given the crew a "renewed drive", how is that drive ANY different from the drive they achieved in Mass Effect 1, when they freakin' killed one of the Reapers??

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:00 .