524 réponses à ce sujet

[kraidy1117]

jlb524 wrote...

Not the worst story, of course, but it was pretty bad....by BW standards as you all have mentioned.

I understand that a lot of people like it just b/c they've connected with a character in the game, via the loyalty missions. But, putting that aside, the main plot was bad...worse than any BW game to date, IMO.

Play NWN

[jlb524]

kraidy1117 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Not the worst story, of course, but it was pretty bad....by BW standards as you all have mentioned.

I understand that a lot of people like it just b/c they've connected with a character in the game, via the loyalty missions. But, putting that aside, the main plot was bad...worse than any BW game to date, IMO.

Play NWN

I've played it...thought it had a better plot than ME2.

[adam_grif]

What irks me about ME2's plot is that it's terrible. Characters are well written and the world it takes place in is interesting, but the central thrust of ME2 is the story of how Commander Shepard goes around and recruits the dumbest people in the galaxy for a mission to blow up a civilization of people, and then they don't even bother to take their own bombs with them because Jack used the last of them for her petty loyalty mission.

Modifié par adam_grif, 23 mai 2010 - 08:13 .

[Whatever Works]

jlb524 wrote...

Whatever Works wrote...

I personally thought it was better than NWN, KOTOR and Dragon Age,

Oh, are you for real!?  I thought those games had good plots that lived up to the BW standard.  ME2 was fail fail fail all around in regards to story.

Neverwinter Nights was about tryihng to investigate a plague then all of a sudden it was a big conspiracy there was betrayal and then you bring them down.  However the story was not told that well and it seemed like you were just clicking around a character waiting for the end of the Chapter to see where the plot went.  And it usually did not go very far.

KOTOR you are shot down, you go hunt for Bastilla, you get Bastilla you recruit some people you become a Jedi, Bastillia betrays you, ZOMG you are the dark lord. You hunt down Malak.  The end.  All that plot was, was that you might be important and Malak is a bad guy, go get him.

Dragon Age feels very much like LOTR and other fantasy archetypes.  It was metagaming heaven for the most part and I was not impressed by that.

Mass Effect 2?  Its problem was that there wasn't much going on.  But you were given a clearer motive than say KOTOR (which oddly had a similar feel to me) and it did a better job of building upon the universe than the other games.

Mind you, my opinion of Bioware is that they are one of the better companies that integrate gameplay and story elements, I do not hold their stories in overall high regard.  I thought Baldur's Gate 2 was interesting but I didn't get far in it.  

[SithLordExarKun]

jlb524 wrote...

Whatever Works wrote...

I personally thought it was better than NWN, KOTOR and Dragon Age,

Oh, are you for real!?  I thought those games had good plots that lived up to the BW standard.  ME2 was fail fail fail all around in regards to story.

Kotor and DAO had ****** poor stories in my opinion with both being incredibly generic. You want "fantastic stories" go play a JRPG.

Story alone don't make a game good.

[jlb524]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Story alone don't make a game good.

Story is a big part of it for me....what does make a good game then?

[Whatever Works]

jlb524 wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Story alone don't make a game good.

Story is a big part of it for me....what does make a good game then?

A good story cannot help bad gameplay

While a bad story can make good gameplay tedious

No story?  Well, Pac-Man and hundreds of the like stand just fine.

[Zahxia]

This entire thread hurt my brain. Bioware doesn't need white knights it's a  game developement studio with a long pedigree critically and commercially successful games. They were more than happy to listen to people groan at the mere mention of the Mako I think they're collectively a strong group of individuals that handle one guy on youtube.

In fact I think they like (constructive) crticism. They were nice enough to sticky an ME3 wishlist and open 'tech support' forums after all. If anything Bioware has shown they can respond to player feedback whether they hate scanning or there's an exploit or they want bigger, better DLC (which Overlord promises to resolve.)

smudboy might seem 'smug' to everyone else but judging by 90% of the replies here I'm starting to think he's one of the few sane people left. It's starting to make Square-Enix's japanophile fanbase look progressive. This is only made even more obvious by the 'character support' threads. Mindless gushing is usually the first sign a genre is stagnating (case in point every JRPG this generation.)

Mass Effect 2 is just another example of a WRPG with a weak 'main questline' but fun distractions, characters or sidequests that make you ignore its faults. I'm not sure what's worse that a genre that derives itself from tabletop gaming has been railroading players or that the players themselves settle for it.

What Bioware delivered with the 'main questline' of Mass Effect 2 was to sci-fi games as Highlander 2 was to sci-fi movies. I love the game for its characters, its gameplay improvements, its art direction, its voice acting and the little bits of fanservice. Whenever Cerberus or Collectors are mentioned though I switch off.

[SithLordExarKun]

jlb524 wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Story alone don't make a game good.

Story is a big part of it for me....what does make a good game then?

Ok but before i go on when you say ME2's story is bad, do you mean the actual story or execution?

[Whatever Works]

The further we get away from DnD mindset the better.



Planescape:Torment ripped Baldur's Gate to shreds because it didn't hold itself back.

Deus Ex was not held back by such elements.



If you have to linearize the story in order for effectiveness? Do it.

[WilliamShatner]

Very good videos smudboy, I enjoyed them.

[Dean_the_Young]

smudboy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I tuned out about the point it called ME2 the absolute worst sequel story in the history of video game sequels. Being able to think of a few sequels with far weaker stories off the top of my head (Final Fantasy 2, Jack and Daxter 3, God of War 3, debatable Gears of War 2), I didn't feel masochistic enough to sit through a 6 part miniseries that started with such a stellar absolutism.

"Mass Effect 2 has one of the worst plots in the history of gaming sequels."

I'm guessing you people don't know what a plot is, or can only hear what your ears decide to.

Or aren't going to bother looking up the exact wording for quoations when a paraphrasing captures the general intent just as well.

I suppose I could have added that I didn't want to go back and get that one line because I found the voice painfully annoying, but that isn't your fault in particular.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 mai 2010 - 01:11 .

[Fiannawolf]

Just finished watching all 6. I can definately understand where your comming from.

[Mister Mida]

You make some good points. Of some mentioned by you I've never even thought about.

[smudboy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I tuned out about the point it called ME2 the absolute worst sequel story in the history of video game sequels. Being able to think of a few sequels with far weaker stories off the top of my head (Final Fantasy 2, Jack and Daxter 3, God of War 3, debatable Gears of War 2), I didn't feel masochistic enough to sit through a 6 part miniseries that started with such a stellar absolutism.

"Mass Effect 2 has one of the worst plots in the history of gaming sequels."

I'm guessing you people don't know what a plot is, or can only hear what your ears decide to.

Or aren't going to bother looking up the exact wording for quoations when a paraphrasing captures the general intent just as well.

I suppose I could have added that I didn't want to go back and get that one line because I found the voice painfully annoying, but that isn't your fault in particular.

Can't even understand the first line, and an ad hominem?  Gotta love intelligible criticism.

[Dean_the_Young]

smudboy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I tuned out about the point it called ME2 the absolute worst sequel story in the history of video game sequels. Being able to think of a few sequels with far weaker stories off the top of my head (Final Fantasy 2, Jack and Daxter 3, God of War 3, debatable Gears of War 2), I didn't feel masochistic enough to sit through a 6 part miniseries that started with such a stellar absolutism.

"Mass Effect 2 has one of the worst plots in the history of gaming sequels."

I'm guessing you people don't know what a plot is, or can only hear what your ears decide to.

Or aren't going to bother looking up the exact wording for quoations when a paraphrasing captures the general intent just as well.

I suppose I could have added that I didn't want to go back and get that one line because I found the voice painfully annoying, but that isn't your fault in particular.

Can't even understand the first line, and an ad hominem?  Gotta love intelligible criticism.

You're the art critic: you should be able to decipher paraphrasing.

An ad hominem would be if I said 'your argument sucks because I don't like your voice.' I wasn't interested in hearing the rest of your argument after you made a claim I felt silly on the face of it. As far as hooks to grab attention go, that was more like pushing away with a paddle.

Your voice was why I didn't want to go back and type that sentence perfectly to your exacting standards. That I find your voice annoying isn't an attack on your argument and, as I said, is no fault of your own. You just sound like an insufferable jock I know. The less I have to hear it the better, and so I had no desire to reopen the video.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 mai 2010 - 05:19 .

[smudboy]

You're the art critic: you should be able to decipher paraphrasing.

An ad hominem would be if I said 'your argument sucks because I don't like your voice.' I wasn't interested in hearing the rest of your argument after you made a claim I felt silly on the face of it. As far as hooks to grab attention go, that was more like pushing away with a paddle.

Your voice was why I didn't want to go back and type that sentence perfectly to your exacting standards. That I find your voice annoying isn't an attack on your argument and, as I said, is no fault of your own. You just sound like an insufferable jock I know. The less I have to hear it the better, and so I had no desire to reopen the video.

If by exacting standards, quoting?  Yeah.  Kind of helps when the person who's quoting me on something gets it right.

You still have nothing worthwhile to comment on.  Fantastic.  Please continue saying things that have no meaning.

Actually, don't.

Modifié par smudboy, 23 mai 2010 - 06:47 .

[Clover Rider]

I will take the videos as a joke no one can be that sad hell most fanboys just make posts but videos now my god.

[Zulu_DFA]

I sincerely think, that the writers could have eliminated many plot holes, and avoided making many more of them, if they were not required to bend the plot to the new "fluent" gameplay features, and cope with the "cool" artistic solutions of the title.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 mai 2010 - 06:31 .

[Jonathan Shepard]

While most of your points are good, the background music is way too loud and I can barely hear your voice.

[Dean_the_Young]

smudboy wrote...

You're the art critic: you should be able to decipher paraphrasing.

An ad hominem would be if I said 'your argument sucks because I don't like your voice.' I wasn't interested in hearing the rest of your argument after you made a claim I felt silly on the face of it. As far as hooks to grab attention go, that was more like pushing away with a paddle.

Your voice was why I didn't want to go back and type that sentence perfectly to your exacting standards. That I find your voice annoying isn't an attack on your argument and, as I said, is no fault of your own. You just sound like an insufferable jock I know. The less I have to hear it the better, and so I had no desire to reopen the video.

If by exacting standards, quoting?  Yeah.  Kind of helps when the person who's quoting me on something gets it right.

Do you deny paraphrasing carries the meaning and intent of what has been said?

Quibbling over semantics if they don't change the general meaning is meaningless.

You still have nothing worthwhile to comment on.  Fantastic.  Please continue saying things that have no meaning.

Actually, don't.

I thought you'd be pleased to know you were not the innocent victim to an ad hominem attack. Or the victim of any ad hominem attack, come to that. You sounded so hurt before.

[finnithe]

Will no one address the points I made?

finnithe wrote...

Here's my response to this vid, just some things I found wrong with it that I posted in the other forum.

finnithe wrote...

There's a few other flaws with the analysis. Unlike ME1, there is no cackling overlord who rambles on about his plans to destroy everything you know and love, which I'm thinking too many of you are taking issue with.

1. The beauty of the collectors is the threat they represent is exemplified by the end boss. As Protheans twisted beyond recognition, they represent the danger presented by the creation of a Human Reaper. It is my opinion that the Reapers plan in creating the Human reaper was not to open the gateway for the rest of them, but to begin the creation of many more Human Reapers, who would together serve as the new vanguard.

2. Shepard is a symbol. Tell me, do we know of anyone as important as Shepard in the humanity's short history in the galactic community? No, and the point of recruiting Shepard was being able to recruit all these specialists in the first place.

3. The Collectors obviously want Shepard. This creates a plot hole however, as the Collectors obviously want Shepard in Mass Effect: Redemption. However, they destroyed the Normandy despite this. It's very weird that they would risk completely killing Shepard while right after showing interest in capturing him to use in the creation of the Human Reapers (Harbinger even hints that this is his plan in his many quotes, even in the video where he says "We are your genetic destiny". He is quite literally stating that it is the humans' destiny to become the next generation of Reapers, as they are the only genetically compatible race in the galaxy at the time).'

4. The stuff about selecting team leaders and how your team doesn't really react any differently. Don't you think it'd be sort of revealing if immediately after choosing Grunt as your second Fire Team Leader, the game scolded you and slapped you on the wrist? I would even go as far to guess that the party members do not themselves know how dangerous the mission is (I don't any of them have faced a mission as tough as going into an unknown part of the galaxy filled with Reaper-spawn). Also, Jacob complaining at being assigned to help protect Garrus was all the way in the beginning of the game. He's probably grown a lot more since then. Shepard is a good role model after all.

I should add that a significant theme in ME2, as well as ME1, is self-determination. You have the chance to advance humanity significantly at the end, though you do so at the risk of making yourself vulnerable against the Reapers. Legion talks at length about this, as he says this was the one reason his group of Geth rejected Sovereign's offers to the Geth. I sometimes think I am playing a completely different game than you guys, but that's the best part of fiction isn't it? The part where you come up with your own theories about the themes and concepts presented? Not everything should be beaten into your skull like it was with Sovereign's speech on Virmire.

finnithe wrote...

About the 3rd part, isn't it implied that TIM used his Alliance connections to get those turrets on Horizon? And he got the ex-squaddie assigned to the planet so that Shepard would go to the planet out of self-interest? I'm also pretty sure that the SR-2 would not be able to take Collector Ship at that point, since it was heavily damaged w/o the upgrades in the final mission.

Also why in the hell would TIM tell someone else about the Derelict Reaper?!? Would he really want to give up the tech inside that thing? He had probably salvaged it by the time Shepard got there or his disregard at its destruction is a plot hole.