524 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Images wrote...
Meh I have to disagree with ya there Smuddy. Mass Effect is a Space Opera and thusly we have the right to grant it some fairy tale aspects at will. The wandering knight who joins a quest at the slightest introduction is a well established role.

So your argument is because genre, therefore stupidity?  Because she's a wandering knight, ergo, her reasoning is perfectly acceptable?

[RyuGuitarFreak]

smudboy wrote...

Images wrote...
Meh I have to disagree with ya there Smuddy. Mass Effect is a Space Opera and thusly we have the right to grant it some fairy tale aspects at will. The wandering knight who joins a quest at the slightest introduction is a well established role.

So your argument is because genre, therefore stupidity?  Because she's a wandering knight, ergo, her reasoning is perfectly acceptable?

I think he was being sarcastic. 

[smudboy]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Nit-picking. She has lived almost a thousand years, she can pretty much know when someone is lying to her doesn't she? And also she can know Shepard's history and that he would be serious about that and not ridiculously point to him "YOU'RE LYING, SHOW ME PROOF". Of all people, why should she doubt Shepard?

Common sense.

So because 1k+ years, she's great at cold reading?  Would Shepard's face lie, and could she figure that out?  According to your opinion, she can.  That's great.  Maybe that is the case.  That doesn't explain your other idea:

She can know Shepard's history,  how?  When she met him/her, she didn't.  They were strangers.  Again, could be blowing up orphanages in their spare time, but because Shepard needs her for a "vital mission, and I need the best"?  Can she deduce/divine knowledge on his/her experiences too?  Answer: no.

Of all people, why wouldn't she doubt someone who just struck a deal out of nowhere?  "Hey baby, I've got an offer you can't refuse.  Come to my used car lot..."  If she's as old and wise as you say, she'd be able to at least do some research.  At that point it's fine, because Shepard's going to go find that ship name for her; but does she ask the detective or anyone else at the station about this Shepard character?  Nope.  She just sits there, is impressed by getting the ship name, and pretty much gives him carte blanche slavery rights.

[Images]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Images wrote...
Meh I have to disagree with ya there Smuddy. Mass Effect is a Space Opera and thusly we have the right to grant it some fairy tale aspects at will. The wandering knight who joins a quest at the slightest introduction is a well established role.

So your argument is because genre, therefore stupidity?  Because she's a wandering knight, ergo, her reasoning is perfectly acceptable?

I think he was being sarcastic. 

Nope!

Characters are sometimes archetypes (don't go being cheeky and saying stereotypes!) and in fantasy (or plain adventure) the wandering knight often joins up without any real clue what they're signing up for! They merely have a feeling that they can do more good alongisde the main character for a time than on their own.

In Bioware games past, look at Anomen!

In literature look at most of King Arthur's gang.

In film, how about the magnificent seven? Most of them have no good reason to join except, "sounds like you're gonna do something challenging".

Modifié par Images, 25 mai 2010 - 04:16 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Nit-picking. She has lived almost a thousand years, she can pretty much know when someone is lying to her doesn't she? And also she can know Shepard's history and that he would be serious about that and not ridiculously point to him "YOU'RE LYING, SHOW ME PROOF". Of all people, why should she doubt Shepard?

Common sense.

So because 1k+ years, she's great at cold reading?  Would Shepard's face lie, and could she figure that out?  According to your opinion, she can.  That's great.  Maybe that is the case.  That doesn't explain your other idea:

She can know Shepard's history,  how?  When she met him/her, she didn't.  They were strangers.  Again, could be blowing up orphanages in their spare time, but because Shepard needs her for a "vital mission, and I need the best"?  Can she deduce/divine knowledge on his/her experiences too?  Answer: no.

Of all people, why wouldn't she doubt someone who just struck a deal out of nowhere?  "Hey baby, I've got an offer you can't refuse.  Come to my used car lot..."  If she's as old and wise as you say, she'd be able to at least do some research.  At that point it's fine, because Shepard's going to go find that ship name for her; but does she ask the detective or anyone else at the station about this Shepard character?  Nope.  She just sits there, is impressed by getting the ship name, and pretty much gives him carte blanche slavery rights.

Well, she is able to know that he is at least the first human Spectre
who saved the Citadel. How? Galatic...news...[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]
In their meeting she doesn't mention that and doesn't recognize Shepard, but she could have heard of him. But well, let's assume she didn't.

And to her analysis at Shepard's character, Samara is an extreme religious person who sees things in black and white following her code. She doesn't work well with...reason and common sense, as seen in her recruitment mission as she would kill the detective if she tried to stop her. She has her judgement stablished by her code. Based on her convictions, he was honest. It didn't have nothing to do with logic, you're correct, but she had HER motivations and reasons why she trusted Shepard. It didn't convince you, but based on the character itself, it made a lot of sense to me.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Zahxia wrote...

He didn't discuss gameplay, graphics, soundtrack/voice acting, level design, controls or DLC or so on. The main storyline isn't the entire game but it's as important to the experience as the above.

edit: logging out.

An RPG lives and dies by its characters and story.

Modifié par SkullandBonesmember, 25 mai 2010 - 04:33 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Images wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Images wrote...
Meh I have to disagree with ya there Smuddy. Mass Effect is a Space Opera and thusly we have the right to grant it some fairy tale aspects at will. The wandering knight who joins a quest at the slightest introduction is a well established role.

So your argument is because genre, therefore stupidity?  Because she's a wandering knight, ergo, her reasoning is perfectly acceptable?

I think he was being sarcastic. 

Nope!

Characters are sometimes archetypes (don't go being cheeky and saying stereotypes!) and in fantasy (or plain adventure) the wandering knight often joins up without any real clue what they're signing up for! They merely have a feeling that they can do more good alongisde the main character for a time than on their own.

In Bioware games past, look at Anomen!

In literature look at most of King Arthur's gang.

In film, how about the magnificent seven? Most of them have no good reason to join except, "sounds like you're gonna do something challenging".

I see. I agree with you. Samara's character is something like a templar or a samurai who will follow her code even if she has to die for it.

[Ariella]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Zahxia wrote...

He didn't discuss gameplay, graphics, soundtrack/voice acting, level design, controls or DLC or so on. The main storyline isn't the entire game but it's as important to the experience as the above.

edit: logging out.

An RPG lives and dies by its characters and story.

A table top RPG maybe, but a CRPG has more qualifications, and you can have the best story in the world; if you can't translate it into the medium (the things Zahxia points out) it's worthless. Terrible layout, voice acting, graphics can kill a computer based RPG just as fast as a bad story.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Nit-picking. She has lived almost a thousand years, she can pretty much know when someone is lying to her doesn't she? And also she can know Shepard's history and that he would be serious about that and not ridiculously point to him "YOU'RE LYING, SHOW ME PROOF". Of all people, why should she doubt Shepard?

Common sense.

So because 1k+ years, she's great at cold reading?  Would Shepard's face lie, and could she figure that out?  According to your opinion, she can.  That's great.  Maybe that is the case.  That doesn't explain your other idea:

She can know Shepard's history,  how?  When she met him/her, she didn't.  They were strangers.  Again, could be blowing up orphanages in their spare time, but because Shepard needs her for a "vital mission, and I need the best"?  Can she deduce/divine knowledge on his/her experiences too?  Answer: no.

Of all people, why wouldn't she doubt someone who just struck a deal out of nowhere?  "Hey baby, I've got an offer you can't refuse.  Come to my used car lot..."  If she's as old and wise as you say, she'd be able to at least do some research.  At that point it's fine, because Shepard's going to go find that ship name for her; but does she ask the detective or anyone else at the station about this Shepard character?  Nope.  She just sits there, is impressed by getting the ship name, and pretty much gives him carte blanche slavery rights.

Well, she is able to know that he is at least the first human Spectre
who saved the Citadel. How? Galatic...news...[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]
In their meeting she doesn't mention that and doesn't recognize Shepard, but she could have heard of him. But well, let's assume she didn't.

And to her analysis at Shepard's character, Samara is an extreme religious person who sees things in black and white following her code. She doesn't work well with...reason and common sense, as seen in her recruitment mission as she would kill the detective if she tried to stop her. She has her judgement stablished by her code. Based on her convictions, he was honest. It didn't have nothing to do with logic, you're correct, but she had HER motivations and reasons why she trusted Shepard. It didn't convince you, but based on the character itself, it made a lot of sense to me.

Just to toss in there, they do say that justicars are prone to joining sucide missions with just causes (Akin to moths to an flame). Hmmm... saving thousands of colonists from insect like race that is collecting them against their will is an just cause yes? That is an wrong-doing she now knows about? She would be kindof obligrated to do something about it because of her code. 

Not everyone uses logic Smudboy, especially videogame characters who are scifi paladins. Lawful stupid as some DnD players say. I personally could care less having an pally in my party, not like I use her, just shove in her in the obersevation room until the final sucide mission.

Ariella wrote...

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

An RPG lives and dies by its characters and
story.

A table top RPG maybe, but a CRPG has more
qualifications, and you can have the best story in the world; if you
can't translate it into the medium (the things Zahxia points out) it's
worthless. Terrible layout, voice acting, graphics can kill a computer
based RPG just as fast as a bad story.

I have to agree. A computer game requires all of these points in order to be success, if the gameplay machanics are time consuming and boring, people aren't going to give two flying ****s for the story. However, if the gameplay Machanics are quite good but the story blows, then people are still going to play the game, perhaps not like the story, but find it fun nevertheless.

An CRPG is not an book, never will be. Writing alone will not save or kill an game.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 25 mai 2010 - 04:42 .

[smudboy]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Well, she is able to know that he is at least the first human Spectre
who saved the Citadel. How? Galatic...news...[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]
In their meeting she doesn't mention that and doesn't recognize Shepard, but she could have heard of him. But well, let's assume she didn't.

She regards Shepard and crew as strangers.

And to her analysis at Shepard's character, Samara is an extreme religious person who sees things in black and white following her code. She doesn't work well with...reason and common sense, as seen in her recruitment mission as she would kill the detective if she tried to stop her. She has her judgement stablished by her code. Based on her convictions, he was honest. It didn't have nothing to do with logic, you're correct, but she had HER motivations and reasons why she trusted Shepard. It didn't convince you, but based on the character itself, it made a lot of sense to me.

She doesn't work well with reason and common sense: how do you know this?  You do not know the contents of her 5000 sutra code.  She could be the most reasonable and common sensical person.  We don't know wtf is going on with her aside from "I am humbled", "I feel you speak the truth", and "Shepard you imrpess me."

She doesn't know that Shepard is a hero, a pedophile, or whatever.  But she gives up her reasonable/unreasonable, common sense/foolish code, just because she got a ship name.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Well, she is able to know that he is at least the first human Spectre
who saved the Citadel. How? Galatic...news...[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]
In their meeting she doesn't mention that and doesn't recognize Shepard, but she could have heard of him. But well, let's assume she didn't.

She regards Shepard and crew as strangers.

And to her analysis at Shepard's character, Samara is an extreme religious person who sees things in black and white following her code. She doesn't work well with...reason and common sense, as seen in her recruitment mission as she would kill the detective if she tried to stop her. She has her judgement stablished by her code. Based on her convictions, he was honest. It didn't have nothing to do with logic, you're correct, but she had HER motivations and reasons why she trusted Shepard. It didn't convince you, but based on the character itself, it made a lot of sense to me.

She doesn't work well with reason and common sense: how do you know this?  You do not know the contents of her 5000 sutra code.  She could be the most reasonable and common sensical person.  We don't know wtf is going on with her aside from "I am humbled", "I feel you speak the truth", and "Shepard you imrpess me."

She doesn't know that Shepard is a hero, a pedophile, or whatever.  But she gives up her reasonable/unreasonable, common sense/foolish code, just because she got a ship name.

Yes, that's it. She was not reasonable there by normal standards, and she didn't give up her code, wtf are you saying? And how do I know? Well, as I said before, and again you are using your tactic of forget pass posts and facts of the game "as seen in her recruitment mission as she would kill the detective if
she tried to stop her", very reasonable you kill a detective who's only doing her job. Asari justicars travel through the galaxy helping people solve wrongs. She was interested in Shepard's mission in the first place, it's not that Shepard asked to date her on the Citadel and because he got her the name of the mission they went to Dark Star to dance.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 25 mai 2010 - 06:06 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

The plot in ME2 was a stinking pile of crap.



Nice to see someone point it out.



Hopefully Biowhore can be more creative with ME3 rather than fill up the game with a series of self contained shooter missions comprising the bulk of the game, and actually put some structure and continuity back into the plot.

[pf17456]

Smudboy; I enjoyed your presentation even though I somewhat disagree , at least with what appears to be an underlying sentiment of cynicism but that's because the 'plot' for me was secondary to what I felt was the basic premise of creating an engaging platform that results in the player having to consider the many social, moral and ethical conflicts we all face on a daily basis and form an opinion. Here I think ME is succesful dispite the flaws or plotholes you mention.



I liked your use of audio/visual aids to make your points (creative and entertaining) and it would seem you put a lot of time and effort into developing your presentation. Perhaps there's a future for you in Bioware's QA department as a consultant. I would suggest though trying to avoid personal opinions in an analysis in favor of a more objective approach specifically referring to your comments about keeping or destroying the Collector base as that is a choice left up to the player.



Hopefully Bioware writers will consider plot holes for ME3 and fill in the gaps which would be an improvement but again I think the main focus of the game is on social issues.

[smudboy]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Yes, that's it. She was not reasonable there by normal standards, and she didn't give up her code, wtf are you saying? And how do I know? Well, as I said before, and again you are using your tactic of forget pass posts and facts of the game "as seen in her recruitment mission as she would kill the detective if
she tried to stop her", very reasonable you kill a detective who's only doing her job. Asari justicars travel through the galaxy helping people solve wrongs. She was interested in Shepard's mission in the first place, it's not that Shepard asked to date her on the Citadel and because he got her the name of the mission they went to Dark Star to dance.

Yes, what's it?  WTF are you saying?  She's clearly not working with a full deck.

Samara: "By agreeing to follow you, I am compelled to swear the most difficult of justical oaths -- the Third Oath of Subsumation."
Samara: "After I do, your orders will override the Code.  You should know, however, that I'll still give you my opinion if the situation warrants."

Her 5000 sutra rule code is overruled, because she got the name of a ship.  Wonderful.  Shepard could be a devourer of worlds, lied, etc.  So she's not reasonable, yet can tell when people are lying.  This does not compute.  She still knows nothing of Shepard, but will follow them unequivocally with an honor-binding rule.  So which one is it?  Is she extremely rational (being able to determine when someone isn't lying) or extremely irrational (just following whatever her Code says?)

[mosor]

Smudboy, your review was spot on. Really good job. ME2 is a fun game. I do like the gameplay mechanics. However I find myself pushing spacebar far too often during the dialogue and story part because the plot is pretty terrible. It's ok to see the first time, but after that it's not engaging at all.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Ariella wrote...

A table top RPG maybe, but a CRPG has more qualifications, and you can have the best story in the world; if you can't translate it into the medium (the things Zahxia points out) it's worthless. Terrible layout, voice acting, graphics can kill a computer based RPG just as fast as a bad story.

Are we still limited technology wise to Pong? No? Is there a market for story driven fans? Yes? So what's the big deal? As I've said in the other thread, fans of 'SPLOSHUNS get dozens of games released for them every single year. Does your demographic deserve any and all games to be limited to just you? Every genre evolves and changes over the years. Could you imagine if the only types of movies made are comedies? What about fans of drama? Don't they have every right to spend their hard earned money for a style of film they prefer and enjoy? It's very selfish how so many gamers say there SHOULDN'T be story driven games.

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

I have to agree. A computer game requires all of these points in order to be success, if the gameplay machanics are time consuming and boring, people aren't going to give two flying ****s for the story. However, if the gameplay Machanics are quite good but the story blows, then people are still going to play the game, perhaps not like the story, but find it fun nevertheless.

An CRPG is not an book, never will be. Writing alone will not save or kill an game.

My friends Heavy Rain, Indigo Prophecy, and Shadow of Destiny would like a word with you.

[Steingrimur Steingrimsson]

Well, yeah. ME2 has a pretty underwhelming overall plot, but I still think the story is better than that of ME1. Instead of one story, it is a series of minor stories all with their little interesting plot twists and moral dilemmas, which also give insight in the world of Mass Effect. Shepard still has a clearly defined quest, but is not as bound to it as in the first game. It kind of reminds me of the Odyssey, where Odysseus travelled from island to island, and fought strange beings, temptations and even met a few celebrities in hell. Even though there was the quest of going home, the story makes every excuse it can to hinder Odysseus from doing this, as an excuse to tell a bunch of awesome stories and showing how much of a badass Odysseus was.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

smudboy wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Yes, that's it. She was not reasonable there by normal standards, and she didn't give up her code, wtf are you saying? And how do I know? Well, as I said before, and again you are using your tactic of forget pass posts and facts of the game "as seen in her recruitment mission as she would kill the detective if
she tried to stop her", very reasonable you kill a detective who's only doing her job. Asari justicars travel through the galaxy helping people solve wrongs. She was interested in Shepard's mission in the first place, it's not that Shepard asked to date her on the Citadel and because he got her the name of the mission they went to Dark Star to dance.

Yes, what's it?  WTF are you saying?  She's clearly not working with a full deck.

Samara: "By agreeing to follow you, I am compelled to swear the most difficult of justical oaths -- the Third Oath of Subsumation."
Samara: "After I do, your orders will override the Code.  You should know, however, that I'll still give you my opinion if the situation warrants."

Her 5000 sutra rule code is overruled, because she got the name of a ship.  Wonderful.  Shepard could be a devourer of worlds, lied, etc.  So she's not reasonable, yet can tell when people are lying.  This does not compute.  She still knows nothing of Shepard, but will follow them unequivocally with an honor-binding rule.  So which one is it?  Is she extremely rational (being able to determine when someone isn't lying) or extremely irrational (just following whatever her Code says?)

Yes, she just follow whatever her code says. She's an example of extremist religion person. The thing presented in the mission is simple as I said: Samara was interested in Shepard's mission because of her motivations as a justicar and she joined the squad. I don't get why she sensing Shepard was not lying has anything to do with her reasons or the code. She thought he wasn't lying, and IMO this happened because she trusted her judgement on his character because she is at the age of a matriarch, she had lived a lot and knowing a lot of people to know when someone is lying or not. Notice that she wasn't a Justicar her whole life, she was a mercenary and probably met lots of bad people. I thought this was very much implied. If it doesn't convice you, sorry.

The oath of submission doesn't really have anything to do with her
motivations to join Shepard, it has to do with a justicar overriding her code to follow someone else's orders over her code, and she only did that because she was interested in the mission. Until then she only followed what her code said she could do. Notice that the oath of submission is still in her...code.

[Sleepicub09]

 I agree with some things you said but most of it is just nit-picking.and at the beginning of the video you said it had the worse plot ever, if you think that than you obviously never heard of F.A.T.A.L.

[mosor]

Steingrimur Steingrimsson wrote...

Well, yeah. ME2 has a pretty underwhelming overall plot, but I still think the story is better than that of ME1. Instead of one story, it is a series of minor stories all with their little interesting plot twists and moral dilemmas, which also give insight in the world of Mass Effect. Shepard still has a clearly defined quest, but is not as bound to it as in the first game. It kind of reminds me of the Odyssey, where Odysseus travelled from island to island, and fought strange beings, temptations and even met a few celebrities in hell. Even though there was the quest of going home, the story makes every excuse it can to hinder Odysseus from doing this, as an excuse to tell a bunch of awesome stories and showing how much of a badass Odysseus was.

1. Odysseus' adventures were more interesting than any recruitment/loyalty story in ME2.

2. The Odessy, despite the adventures, you always felt Odesseus' drive to get home.

In ME2, most of the stories don't feel conected at all. While some stories seem cool, they also distract from the main story rather than add to it. The main antogonist is seriously underwhelming when many people find the illusive man more of a threat than the harbringer and the reapers.

[Sharn01]

I agree with a lot of what you had to say Smudboy, but you did exaggerate and nitpick on some things also.

An example of your exaggeration would be worst plot ever, maybe worst bioware plot ever but worst ever it is not. If you had said its one of the worst examples of a sequal not moving the exsisting overarching story forward I would agree with you, but that is not how you phrased it.

Modifié par Sharn01, 25 mai 2010 - 08:18 .

[Apocalypse89]

Steingrimur Steingrimsson wrote...

Well, yeah. ME2 has a pretty underwhelming overall plot, but I still think the story is better than that of ME1. Instead of one story, it is a series of minor stories all with their little interesting plot twists and moral dilemmas, which also give insight in the world of Mass Effect. Shepard still has a clearly defined quest, but is not as bound to it as in the first game. It kind of reminds me of the Odyssey, where Odysseus travelled from island to island, and fought strange beings, temptations and even met a few celebrities in hell. Even though there was the quest of going home, the story makes every excuse it can to hinder Odysseus from doing this, as an excuse to tell a bunch of awesome stories and showing how much of a badass Odysseus was.

That's pretty much my opinion on ME2's plot.

[smudboy]

Sharn01 wrote...

I agree with a lot of what you had to say Smudboy, but you did exaggerate and nitpick on some things also.

An example of your exaggeration would be worst plot ever, maybe worst bioware plot ever but worst ever it is not. If you had said its one of the worst examples of a sequal not moving the exsisting overarching story forward I would agree with you, but that is not how you phrased it.

Despite the trolls, rabid swearing youtube fanboys, this is what I cannot accept.

This is what I said.  The first line.  Of the first video:

"Mass Effect 2 has one of the worst plots in the history of gaming sequels."

Please do not paraphraze.  Please do not "get" the "spirit" of the "message."  I'm not using metaphor or leading you on.  If you're going to quote me, get it right.

(Now if I said it was the worst plot ever in my rantings, then I apologize, and I was being overly emotional.   ME2 has so many holes it may possibly be the worst, and I know I said a lo of things.  But I'm quite sure I never said that.)