67 réponses à ce sujet

[Axekix]

Tirigon wrote...

Gecon wrote...

I am not aware that Arcane Warrior gives any ability to kill stuff FASTER ... ?

When Combat Magic is active you get bonusdamage based on magic - to be accurate, magic does what strength would usually do, so with 80 magic your damage equals the damage of a warrior with 80 str. The second passive skills gives another 5 damage. This is the reason why an AW´s meelee damage can easily equal a warrior´s damage, or be even bigger. And haste is helpful for killing stuff too.

Hmm?  In the case of a DW warrior, Momentum>>>Haste, and they have special attacks that can up melee damage significantly (espescially DW sweep and Whirlwind).  Meanwhile 2h Warriors shred heavy armored targets with Sunder Armor, 2h Strength and Destroyer.  And both setups have access to Berserker spec which adds +8 dmg, overpowering the AW +5 bonus.

At their highest levels I don't see the two being equal at all tbh.

Modifié par Axekix, 24 mai 2010 - 10:29 .

[Elhanan]

While possibly true when comparing Spec attacks to auto-attacks (ie; the other 'left-hand' choice), the AW is also able to wield spells while under these sustainable talents. And while I do not have the numbers, I am fairly certain that a spell-wielding AW far exceeds the potential of that of the Warrior crowd.

[Tirigon]

Axekix wrote...

Hmm?  In the case of a DW warrior, Momentum>>>Haste, and they have special attacks that can up melee damage significantly (espescially DW sweep and Whirlwind).  Meanwhile 2h Warriors shred heavy armored targets with Sunder Armor, 2h Strength and Destroyer.  And both setups have access to Berserker spec which adds +8 dmg, overpowering the AW +5 bonus.

At their highest levels I don't see the two being equal at all tbh.

True, but you forget a couple of things:

1) AW attacks not as fast as DW, but faster than S/S and twohander
2) Mages usually have more magic than a warrior has str, at least for DW and S/S, so more damage bonus.

This means the autoattack damage is the 2nd highest after DW, but with damage per hit being higher (= bonus against armored enemies)

With talents included, a warrior can have higher damage, but an AW has better utility, because of:

1) Haste affects your other party members, too, momentum does not  -----> increases your warrior´s DPS too.
2) Defense rating is higher than S/S and 2h and about equal to DW, with armor being way higher. -----> more survivability.
3) Healing pots are more effective for AW -----> even more survivaility.
4) AW can refill mana with pots, Warriors can only do that in Awakenings.
5) Shimmering Shield, Spell shield and mana clash make the AW superior against your most difficult foes, hostile mages, who can easily kill a DW before reaching them.
6) AWs crowd control is far superior to any warrior / rogue. If you have BM as second spec - which you should - even more so, as mana is not an issue.
7) AW can use weapon buffs, further increasing damage for every meelee fighter.

Only downside is the lack of hitpoints compared to warrior, but this can be fixed by giving Lifegiver to your AW and the better defense / armor / healing pots strength also limits this downside.

[beancounter501]

Not sure I really understand how people think the AW is the best for killing stuff. It is awesome for the extra armor and gear, but for killing things you just can not beat spells. Sure they do good dmg, but that pales in comparison to Affliction Hex + Blood Wound/Stinging Swarm/Fireball/Cone of Cold.



A 100 spell power mage who casts Afflection Hex and is wearing + 30% flame dmg gear is hitting a fireball for 120 * 1.75 * 1.3 = 270 points of dmg. And a 100 spellpower is not that high. Even the lowely staff can hit for 100 to 150 pts of dmg with a hex and the elemental boosting gear. And that is an auto hit. Good luck to all you warriors and rogues getting anywhere near those numbers. Against single targets mage should be casting Vulnerability Hex then Virulent Walking Bomb/Crushing Prison/Stingswarm. Or go for an Entropic Death Combo or Sleep + Horror Combo and get insane dmg. Hex + Spirit Gear + Entropic Death can hit for close to a 1000 points.



On the melee side the AW will never approach any of the melee focused warriors in dmg. The activated talents are just too strong, 2 Hand Sweep + Whirlwind racks up tons of dmg fast. And high level warrior will fire off Perfect Striking and hit every single attack.



In my AW play through I found it simply more effective to cast away and turn on Combat Magic every now and then for fun.

[soteria]

Ironically, if we're really talking about "single target damage," the warrior probably still loses to the rogue. If we're just talking about killing a single target, such as a boss, the positional requirement for backstabbing ceases to be a downside.



Even late game, I think casting is stronger than autoattacking. Arguing that single-target damage is more important than aoe spells because of friendly fire presupposes both that you're using a lot of melee and that you care about their survival. I strongly suspect three mages and an archer will kill any encounter faster than four dw warriors. How many enemies would survive even an initial salvo of three fireballs, which takes 1 second to cast and has range? Anything that survived would die to either scattershot or AoS. Also, with more mages the single-target capabilities go up, since stacking hexes becomes easier. Besides, mages can burst better single-target damage, and in the short fights of Origins burst is a lot more important.

[Tirigon]

beancounter501 wrote...

Not sure I really understand how people think the AW is the best for killing stuff. It is awesome for the extra armor and gear, but for killing things you just can not beat spells. Sure they do good dmg, but that pales in comparison to Affliction Hex + Blood Wound/Stinging Swarm/Fireball/Cone of Cold.

A 100 spell power mage who casts Afflection Hex and is wearing + 30% flame dmg gear is hitting a fireball for 120 * 1.75 * 1.3 = 270 points of dmg. And a 100 spellpower is not that high. Even the lowely staff can hit for 100 to 150 pts of dmg with a hex and the elemental boosting gear. And that is an auto hit. Good luck to all you warriors and rogues getting anywhere near those numbers. Against single targets mage should be casting Vulnerability Hex then Virulent Walking Bomb/Crushing Prison/Stingswarm. Or go for an Entropic Death Combo or Sleep + Horror Combo and get insane dmg. Hex + Spirit Gear + Entropic Death can hit for close to a 1000 points.

Well it depends on the situation. I mean, your Fireball hits for 270 damage with debuff first? Cool, but against multiple archers and a mage you´re likely to be dead before casting due to Crushing Prison and Scattershot, and even if you get it off.... In the same time my AW hits 4 times for 90 - 120 damage each + flameweapons = 360 - 480 + 80 damage. Single target of course, but therefore without friendly fire.

And about the staffs: Well I have seen videos with such numbers but never managed to get them in-game. If you can explain exactly which staff you used and which buffs / debuffs I´d be grateful, so that I can try it myself.

The combos you mentioned ARE cool, yes, but the most effective one - Entropic Death - is rarely useful because of death cloud´s friendly fire, and sleep is usually resisted by bosses. Not even to mention that 4 or 5 hits by an AW do the same amount of damage, even more when coupled with Death Hex for the Auto-Crit.


The MOST important strength, however, is that an AW can do much of these combos, too, with only slightly less Spellpower, but therefore much better survivability. Remember, you´re mage can´t cast if he´s dead.


Ultimately it is the question what you prefer: A specialised mage / warrior who beats an AW in one single task when you min / max correctly, or an AW who will be slightly weaker in a special task, but is therefore skilled in everything and rquires less min / max to be effective.

I definitely prefer the second one, even more so on my main character. If I need a specialist I can take the fitting party member.

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...

Ironically, if we're really talking about "single target damage," the warrior probably still loses to the rogue. If we're just talking about killing a single target, such as a boss, the positional requirement for backstabbing ceases to be a downside.

Even late game, I think casting is stronger than autoattacking. Arguing that single-target damage is more important than aoe spells because of friendly fire presupposes both that you're using a lot of melee and that you care about their survival. I strongly suspect three mages and an archer will kill any encounter faster than four dw warriors. How many enemies would survive even an initial salvo of three fireballs, which takes 1 second to cast and has range? Anything that survived would die to either scattershot or AoS. Also, with more mages the single-target capabilities go up, since stacking hexes becomes easier. Besides, mages can burst better single-target damage, and in the short fights of Origins burst is a lot more important.

However, rogues still have a bonus compared to mages insofar as backstabs are less likely to be resisted.

In some boss fights it is possible that the enemy resists 3 out of 4 spells, what majorly screws mages but doesn´t affect a meelee at all.

Against mobs I disagree with your assumption: 4 DW warriors and 3 mages will probably kill the enemy equally fast since 4 times whirlwind + dual sweep is enough to kill EVERY mob, most lieutenants and probably even some bosses.

Hell, I´ve seen my rogue hitting for 250 with a dual sweep, and about the same with whirlwind.....

[soteria]

Well it depends on the situation. I mean, your Fireball hits for 270 damage with debuff first? Cool, but against multiple archers and a mage you´re likely to be dead before casting due to Crushing Prison and Scattershot, and even if you get it off.... In the same time my AW hits 4 times for 90 - 120 damage each + flameweapons = 360 - 480 + 80 damage. Single target of course, but therefore without friendly fire.

Fireball beats scattershot and crushing prison. Why would you assume the mage decides to run into range and wait three seconds before casting fireball when he can just cast it slightly out of range, depending on the blast radius to knock enemies down before closing to use other spells? Your AW hasn't hit anything in that same time because he's still running up to the enemy.



And why do I care about friendly fire? I'm pretty good at avoiding it, but a high level BM/SH can take care of injuries with a mouse click. A group with no or few melee doesn't have to worry about it at all.

[DKJaigen]

beancounter501 wrote...

Not sure I really understand how people think the AW is the best for killing stuff. It is awesome for the extra armor and gear, but for killing things you just can not beat spells. Sure they do good dmg, but that pales in comparison to Affliction Hex + Blood Wound/Stinging Swarm/Fireball/Cone of Cold.

A 100 spell power mage who casts Afflection Hex and is wearing + 30% flame dmg gear is hitting a fireball for 120 * 1.75 * 1.3 = 270 points of dmg. And a 100 spellpower is not that high. Even the lowely staff can hit for 100 to 150 pts of dmg with a hex and the elemental boosting gear. And that is an auto hit. Good luck to all you warriors and rogues getting anywhere near those numbers. Against single targets mage should be casting Vulnerability Hex then Virulent Walking Bomb/Crushing Prison/Stingswarm. Or go for an Entropic Death Combo or Sleep + Horror Combo and get insane dmg. Hex + Spirit Gear + Entropic Death can hit for close to a 1000 points.

On the melee side the AW will never approach any of the melee focused warriors in dmg. The activated talents are just too strong, 2 Hand Sweep + Whirlwind racks up tons of dmg fast. And high level warrior will fire off Perfect Striking and hit every single attack.

In my AW play through I found it simply more effective to cast away and turn on Combat Magic every now and then for fun.

Most likely you build your AW wrong then. and yes you have a good point with your fireball and dubble hex but did you know that a AW can easily hit for 150(every second not including weapon buffs) white damage on the main hand alone by applying deathhex to a target?

and while your other advies has merrit it takes a long time to setup this combo not to mention that you have to very specific gear to do so. dual wield dagger AW are only outclassed in orgins by the dual wield warrior berserker(yes a properly build aw will outdamage a 2 hander) . or assasin cunning rogues

[soteria]

Against mobs I disagree with your assumption: 4 DW warriors and 3 mages will probably kill the enemy equally fast since 4 times whirlwind + dual sweep is enough to kill EVERY mob, most lieutenants and probably even some bosses.



Hell, I´ve seen my rogue hitting for 250 with a dual sweep, and about the same with whirlwind.....

Once again, you assume a scenario where your warriors can magically teleport around, gather up the enemies into melee range, and activate their abilities in the same time that a mage can cast a spell from extreme range in a single second. 4 warriors casting whirlwind/dw sweep might do what you say, but they still have to get into position. 3 fireballs + scattershot probably has the same effect, in half the time and without the positional requirement. Don't pretend you can just hit dw sweep any time and expect it to do what you want, and whirlwind is restricted melee range, which means you still have to run down those archers, which are frequently scattered.



And don't forget, those three mages could cast petrify-vwb-stone fist in the space of about a second, and do 250 damage to everything in the same range as whirlwind. That combo isn't always going to hit everyone you want, but neither is whirlwind. I don't think I've seen VWB hit for less than 200.

[beancounter501]

Have to agree with Soteria. Whirlwind and 2 Hand Sweep are nice, but you have to spend some time getting everyone in position. By the time a warrior went Berserk, moved into position and activated Whirlwind I would expect the mages could gotten off at least two spells. Maybe even three. It takes a couple of seconds to get all of the monsters to surround you. Even then the radius is fairly small and it is difficult to get more then 4 monsters in the radius. Plus archers will run when you approach so it is much more difficult to Whirlwind/Sweep them. I am playing a four warrior party and while they are very efficient at killing things they are no where near as effective if I would have included a single mage. Three mages and an archer would probably end most battles in under 10 seconds and take zero dmg. No trash mobs could survive three fireballs and a scattershot.



Also, I would agree a backstabbing Rogue is probably the most effective character for a Boss. As long as he avoids any stuns or radius knockdowns. The only real case where sustained DPS matters a lot. Otherwise burst dmg is more important. Not to many fights last more then 20 seconds if the party is built to kill.



@Trigon - High dmg staff atacks are pretty easy to get. You have to have a high spell score, a good Elemental Staff(this is critical - I like Winters Breath), Staff Mastery, + Elemental Dmg Gear that is related to your staff and then buff your spell score even higher with Spell Wisp/Spell Might. Then cast affliction hex on the weakest target on the field and proceed to staff attack everyone but the guy you cast the hex on. If you have Wynne in the party have her use Vessel of the Spirt and then Spell Might and Spell Wisp. She can get some serious dmg - much higher then the main PC can.



Your comments about Bosses resisting a spell is valid and that is one of the few times I thought about using combat magic and melee. Bosses like Dragons seem to be very good at resisting all spells. But I usually had the mage kill all of the bosses minions while the Warriors focus on the boss. And then fall back to staff attacking the boss and healing the party up so they don't have to waste time chugging health potions.



@Jaigen - you are acting like you can start hitting from the first second of a fight. You can not. I guarantee you that a mage can cast fireball at 5 or 6 monsters for an easy 600 to 800 points of dmg before you even get one hit in. That is a LOT of dmg to try to make up swinging a sword at one monster at a time. Not only that you will have to move around from target to target and you will miss some of those swings. Warriors miss and an AW does not have a higher attack score then warriors. Unless you cast Heroic Offense on yourself. But there goes more time your character is not doing dmg while a caster mage could be pumping out the pain.



And all melee characters will benefit from haste/death hex/flaming weapons. It is not like they are limited to only the AW.

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...


Fireball beats scattershot and crushing prison. Why would you assume the mage decides to run into range and wait three seconds before casting fireball when he can just cast it slightly out of range, depending on the blast radius to knock enemies down before closing to use other spells? Your AW hasn't hit anything in that same time because he's still running up to the enemy.

Well you forget that my AW can use a fireball, too, if I think it´s appropriate. Your non-AW mage can´t go meelee if that´s better. That´s my main point: AW doesn´t loose anything. Shapeshifter is useless in vanilla, and Spirit healer has only one useful spell, so taking the AW spec just in case doesn´t harm your caster skills.

And why do I care about friendly fire? I'm pretty good at avoiding it, but a high level BM/SH can take care of injuries with a mouse click. A group with no or few melee doesn't have to worry about it at all.

That´s why I say it´s situational. I prefer to go with a meelee party and I don´t want them to fall in a fight, so for me Friendly Fire is an annoyance,

[Tirigon]

beancounter501 wrote...

And all melee characters will benefit from haste/death hex/flaming weapons. It is not like they are limited to only the AW.

And this is exactly what makes AW so good. I guess for a solo run a caster would actually be superior to an AW, but if all the sustainables you have do also benefit 2 or 3 other meelee fighters an AWs usefulness goes up in the sky.

Sure, a caster mage can use haste and flaming weapons too, but it will lessen his mana pool for casting, in cases like miasma even drawing unwanted aggro, while not doing anything for himself.

[soteria]

Well you forget that my AW can use a fireball, too, if I think it´s appropriate. Your non-AW mage can´t go meelee if that´s better. That´s my main point: AW doesn´t loose anything. Shapeshifter is useless in vanilla, and Spirit healer has only one useful spell, so taking the AW spec just in case doesn´t harm your caster skills.

Your AW can only do the same thing after switching or sheathing weapons, and my point is AW melee isn't better than casting. "Situationally" you can just use a staff auto-attack for pretty respectable damage if you want to go that way... my mage has never wanted to go to melee, so that's hardly a weakness. Unresistable, armor-penetrating, auto-hit, infinite range damage that allows me to seamlessly transition to casting, or miss-prone physical damage that requires me to be in range of knockdowns and grabs and sheathe my weapons to cast numerous spells... hmm.



Also, 4 spells isn't "nothing." All else being equal, it's the difference between having all the spells you want at level 14 and waiting till level ~18. As for mana and sustains like flaming weapons, even without blood magic or potions, the only fights mana is an issue on are the dragon fights.



Not that AW's don't have their strengths, but it's not superior offensive power. Unless maybe your whole argument is that "dual-wielding AWs are better in a group that's optimized for dual-wield auto-attack damage." Ok. If you like playing that way, more power to you, but that doesn't make auto-attack better than casting.

[pinzig]

ya know theres a list on the wiki about which spells require sheathing and which dont, you'd be surprised i think to know just how many don't.

The wierdest one imo is walking bomb/virulent walking bomb.. walking bomb is sheath casted but VWB is weapons out cast



AW hits stride in higher levels, especially once shimmering shield is out

I tend to unload persistant aoe on an area (earthquake - which is weapons out instant cast, and death cloud, persistant aoe spirit damage) which gens plenty of aggro, then bust in swinging, use crushing prison to bust on big guys (also a weapons out instant cast) or force shield to partition off either a)really bad news bad guy or ally or party member who's taking too much heat(good for escort rescue moments too, like the survivors in vigils keep) shimmering shield means that whatever aoe i am wading through doesn't even scratch me so much (also means I pass the earthquake check real good, keeps enemies knocked on their butts)



basically, drop those aoes out and wade in - shimmering shield will make it so you take way less damage than they do and they will all run to you to be finished off by your sword while suffering from aoe hate.

[d3c0yBoY]

I'm on the same boat with Bean and Soteria. My first few tries making a AW, I often tried to melee with mediocre results. While being indestructible is all fine and dandy, I find it more effective having my enemies die as swiftly as possible. My current AW is a staff user with mana regen heavy gear and sword and board as her secondary. I only find Combat Magic useful when in close quarters and my AoE shenanigans are too risky to use.

[TM13h]

I am no powerplayer and haven't done any number crunching so my post is somewhat subjective.



I feel that a combination of AW/BloodM/BattelM is very well suited to get high numbers doing melee damage. I like to run into groups of enemies after cc'ing them with Blood Wound, optionally using Mana Clash and/or Crushing Prison, inflicting (v) Walking Bomb and hacking away. When Blood Wound is wearing off, I pop a Hand of Winter, hacking some more, and that is when usually everybody around me is dead.



On my first playthrough I was using fireball and several primal spells much but now am only using very few offensive spells (Arcane Blast, Blood Wound, Hand of Winter, and Mana Clash), no hexes or glyphs, and run the usual sustainables (with telekinetic weapons, not flaming). Every single attribute point got put into Magic so I am well over 100 now and never run out of either mana or hp. You can even activate Spell Might and/or Elemental Mastery and still be able to throw in a few spells.



This is a different approach from the "a mage at first, a tank in certain situations" playstyle, and it might take a few seconds longer to obliterate a group of mobs (I never tested it) but you can still reach high dmg numbers if that is what you're aiming for and come close to both rangers and melee dps classes.

[AuraofMana]

An AW will never outDPS a DW Backstab Rogue.  Now that we got that out of the way, I'll explain why AW is not optimal for teamplay.

In Dragon Age, CC is king.  You will destroy everything.  You don't even need a tank against regular mobs and normal bosses because they are CC'd 100% or close to 100% of the time.  You will never get hit.
Who does the best CC?  A caster Mage of course!  Spellpower is the lifeblood of a Mage, especially as CC because you don't want elites and bosses to resist your spells.  This is why when you make a CC Mage, you should pump every attribute point into Magic, and grab as many bonus points in Magic as possible.  This means taking Spirit Healer for the +2 Magic.  Since you already need Blood Mage for Blood Wound, there goes your 2 specializations.  Plus, Shapeshifter blows, and you should never get hit anyway, so AW is useless.  You also want +Magic/Spellpower, so non-robes are useless to you.
Party member 1: CC Mage
Reason: CC Mage never gets hit, needs +Magic so non-robes are useless.  AW does not fit.

While CC is amazing, it's almost impossible to CC the difficult boss even close to 100% of the time.  Using Force Shield is possible, but very inefficient as you can't attack the boss either.  Bosses also hurt a lot.  It's time to get a dedicated tank.  Who is the best tank?  It's the Warrior!
SnS Warrior is the best tank in the game, going Champion and Reaver.  You get optimal aggro.  Enough Strength for armor, and pump EVERY SINGLE POINT into Dexterity.  Now you will hardly get hit.  Wield a dagger, and you deal a lot of damage due to high Dexterity, and with your aggro skills, bosses (mobs are CC'd so they don't matter) should never be pried off of you.
Party member 2: Tank SnS Warrior
Reason: While the AW arguably survives better, the SnS Warrior has better aggro control.  A tank is a tank, it's not here to deal damage for the sake of DPS.  It's here to deal damage to help with aggro.  I rather have more aggro control through skills than aggroing through damage.  An AW will never outDPS a Rogue.

The Tank needs ot be kept alive, which means we are going to need a healer.  The only one who can heal in Dragon Age is the Mage, so we will need a Spirit Healer.  Your tank should never need heal that much anyway, which means your healer will never get hit.  If your healer does, you are doing something wrong.  That means AW is useless, and again, Shapeshifter is useless.  Grab Blood Mage for the +2 Magic.  Because your tank does not require a mass amount of heal, you can run Haste and spam Heroic Defense + Heroic Offense.
Party member 3: Healer Mage
Reason: Healer Mage never gets hit, and +Magic is awesome.  Also, you want +Mana Regen and +Magic and +Willpower, which you get from robes.  AW does not fit.

Now we need DPS.  Who is the best DPS in the game?  A DW Backstab Rogue of course!  This means a Cunning Bard/Assassin DW Backstab Rogue with dual daggers auto attacking away.  Because your CC Mage is keeping targets CC'd as much as possible, backstabs happen very often which equals to more damage.
Party member 4: DW Backstab Rogue
Reason: AW will never outDPS a DW Backstab Rogue who is able to backstab close to 100% of the time and never pull aggro because we have an amazing tank.  AW doesn't fit again.

This is the optimal party build IMO.  You can mix and match, replacing DW Backstab Rogue with a DW Warrior.  AW cannot outDPS a DW Warrior either.  You can even replace the SnS Warrior Tank with a DW Warrior.  Due to the high Dexterity of the DW Warrior, the DW Warrior can draw aggro even better when that DPS is used in conjunction with the Warrior's aggro skills.  However, you sacrifice survivability.  I think a more dedicated tank is better, but that's me.

AW is supposed to be all versatile and have utility.  Because you split points into Dexterity, Willpower, and Magic (and some may even devote points to Constitution), your spells are terrible.  You also need to sheath your weapons to cast a lot of the spells.  I am not seeing this versatile thing, because as an AW, casting spells drops your DPS, and the spells you cast aren't even that great.
You can't tank as well as an actual tank.  If you want to tank and DPS, the DW Warrior is a much better choice.  What's the point of high survivability if you can't even keep aggro on you?
This is a team game.  Specialization > versatility.  Thus AW is suboptimal to have in party build.  AW itself isn't even that great in versatility.  Most people that play AW don't even cast spells due to DPS drop and lack of Mana to cast it.  Even with Blood Mage specialization, your already horrid fatigue gets higher, and you are casting some terrible spells because of your low Magic.  What's the point of using the subpar spells?  Why don't you let an actual Mage do it?
People are just obsessed with it because it's amazing when you solo.  Just because it is good solo doesn't mean it's amazing in teamplay.

[AuraofMana]

[quote]1) AW attacks not as fast as DW, but faster than S/S and twohander[/quote]
AW attacks by auto attacking.  S/S is not there to deal damage.  2H attacks faster becasue 2H Warrior spams attack skills and get Stamina back via Death Blow so it can keep going.

[quote]2) Mages usually have more magic than a warrior has str, at least for DW and S/S, so more damage bonus.[/quote]
As an AW, you split points into too many attributes.  You also have no attack skills.  DW is all about spamming attack skills.  DW is also about AOE damage while S/S is about stunning/knockdown.

[quote]1) Haste affects your other party members, too, momentum does not  -----> increases your warrior´s DPS too.[/quote]
DW Warrior can outDPS an AW.

[quote]2) Defense rating is higher than S/S and 2h and about equal to DW, with armor being way higher. -----> more survivability.[/quote]
No aggro.

[quote]3) Healing pots are more effective for AW -----> even more survivaility.[/quote]
If you are tanking and you are drinking potions, you are not tanking right.

[quote]4) AW can refill mana with pots, Warriors can only do that in Awakenings.[/quote]
You can't fill reserved mana.  AW has almost no mana left.  The only mitigation is more Willpower (aka, less into Magic, less Spellpower and damage) or go Blood Mage (which means you have to pump Constitution, because unlike a regular Blood Mage, you don't turn off Blood Magic after using Blood Wound as you have no mana to use).

[quote]5) Shimmering Shield, Spell shield and mana clash make the AW superior against your most difficult foes, hostile mages, who can easily kill a DW before reaching them.[/quote]
Hostile mages killing anything = fail.  Mana Clash > hostile mages.

[quote]6) AWs crowd control is far superior to any warrior / rogue. If you have BM as second spec - which you should - even more so, as mana is not an issue.[/quote]
Good luck casting CC and dropping your DPS because you need to sheath your weapons.  Warrior and Rogue are not there to CC.  Stop comparing strength with weakness.

[quote]7) AW can use weapon buffs, further increasing damage for every meelee fighter.[/quote]
You have Mages that can do the same.

You are arguing AW on its own.  This is a team game.

[quote]The MOST important strength, however, is that an AW can do much of
these combos, too, with only slightly less Spellpower, but therefore
much better survivability. Remember, you´re mage can´t cast if he´s
dead.[/quote]
If your Mage is dying from enemy fire, you are playing the game wrong.

[quote]Ultimately it is the question what you prefer: A specialised mage /
warrior who beats an AW in one single task when you min / max correctly,
or an AW who will be slightly weaker in a special task, but is
therefore skilled in everything and rquires less min / max to be
effective.[/quote]
Specialization > versatility in any team game.  1 + 1 is more than 2 in teamplay.

[quote]In some boss fights it is possible that the enemy resists 3 out of 4
spells, what majorly screws mages but doesn´t affect a meelee at all.[/quote]
That's why you get every single CC spell (minus Mass Paralysis, useless crap).  You are not there to shutdown the boss 100% of the time as you can't.  Your Warrior Tank holding aggro means your DW Backstab Rogue is always backstabbing as much as possible (you can't backstab when say, the Archdemon flies).

[quote]Most likely you build your AW wrong then. and yes you have a good point
with your fireball and dubble hex but did you know that a AW can easily
hit for 150(every second not including weapon buffs) white damage on the
main hand alone by applying deathhex to a target?[/quote]
You know I can CC everyone and the Rogue gets to backstab every time because of Coup de Gras?  You also know people just drop 3-4 ticks due to Blood Wound because I max my Magic?

[quote]and while your other advies has merrit it takes a long time to setup
this combo not to mention that you have to very specific gear to do so.
dual wield dagger AW are only outclassed in orgins by the dual wield
warrior berserker(yes a properly build aw will outdamage a 2 hander) .
or assasin cunning rogues[/quote]
2 better DPS builds out of 4 possible team member, why would I pick AW?

[quote]Well you forget that my AW can use a fireball, too, if I think it´s
appropriate. Your non-AW mage can´t go meelee if that´s better. That´s
my main point: AW doesn´t loose anything. Shapeshifter is useless in
vanilla, and Spirit healer has only one useful spell, so taking the AW
spec just in case doesn´t harm your caster skills.[/quote]
You take longer than regular mages to use fireball because you have to sheath your weapons.  I don't even use Fireball on any Mage because a Mage can't DPS as well as a Rogue or Warrior.  I throw Blood Wound first in a fight, EVERYONE IS INSTANTLY CC'D.  What's the point of taking AW if my Mage NEVER GETS HIT?

[quote]That´s why I say it´s situational. I prefer to go with a meelee party
and I don´t want them to fall in a fight, so for me Friendly Fire is an
annoyance,[/quote]
Friendly fire isn't even that bad in this game.

Modifié par AuraofMana, 26 mai 2010 - 08:10 .

[soteria]

AuraofMana, though you make some good points, your argument rests on a lot of unproven/false assumptions. "You need a tank." No, you don't. "You need a healer." No, you don't. "The only one who can heal is the mage." Potions?  Why is a mage taking time to heal better than a warrior taking time to use a potion? "DW backstab rogue is the best dps" Really? Prove it.

I don't really disagree with your conclusion, but the argument is pretty weak.

Modifié par soteria, 26 mai 2010 - 08:13 .

[AuraofMana]

"You need a tank." No, you don't.

I am going to say this again.  This is a team game.  It is best to specialize because when you do that, 1 + 1 is more than 2.  This is how it works in any team-oriented game.  This is why teamwork is imbalanced and should be nerfed.

"You need a healer." No, you don't.

Read above.

"The only one who can heal is the mage." Potions? Why is a mage taking time to heal better than a warrior taking time to use a potion?

Potion is an item.  Healer is a build lol.
The reason why it's better to have a dedicated healer is because healing takes time to drink, has cooldown, and is very annoying to do.  You have to pause the game and use potions.  You will probably have to make a lot of potions if you decide to run no healer.  With the lack of "Make X number of these" in crafting, it is a huge pain in the ass.

"DW backstab rogue is the best dps" Really? Prove it.

Go find the numerical analysis someone did in one of the threads.  This was proven time and time again.  DW Backstab Rogues can consistantly do about 250~ damage each backstab.  Daggers are also the fastest weapon in the game.  Even an AW using dual daggers will not outDPS the Rogue because backstab's damage = critical damage, so the Rogue is dealing critical damage at lightning speed.  Also, critical damage includes bonus damage, which the Rogue receive a lot of due to Song of Courage and the fact that the +backstab/critical damage mods have the highest numeric value in the game in terms of bonus damage.
Those alone should tell you.  If you still don't believe me, check any thread.  Even the stickie references this several times.

Again, versatility is subpar to specialization in teamplay.

[soteria]

I am going to say this again. This is a team game. It is best to specialize because when you do that, 1 + 1 is more than 2. This is how it works in any team-oriented game. This is why teamwork is imbalanced and should be nerfed.

Oh? So I need a tank and a healer to have a team? Why do I need healer + tank + cc + dps? Maybe I like cc + dps + dps + cc. Still a team, but I don't need a tank, or a healer. You say your mage doesn't need defenses because of cc and a tank, well, I say my party doesn't need defenses because of cc and dps.

Potion is an item. Healer is a build lol.

The reason why it's better to have a dedicated healer is because healing takes time to drink, has cooldown, and is very annoying to do. You have to pause the game and use potions. You will probably have to make a lot of potions if you decide to run no healer. With the lack of "Make X number of these" in crafting, it is a huge pain in the ass.

Healing has a cooldown, takes time, and is annoying to do. You don't have to pause the game to use potions any more than you have to pause the game to heal--they're functionally equal. Actually, healing is probably a little harder because you have to click on a target. Potions just take one click. Also, the game is quite beatable (on nightmare) without a mage or potions, so I'm not buying the quantity argument.

Go find the numerical analysis someone did in one of the threads. This was proven time and time again. DW Backstab Rogues can consistantly do about 250~ damage each backstab. Daggers are also the fastest weapon in the game. Even an AW using dual daggers will not outDPS the Rogue because backstab's damage = critical damage, so the Rogue is dealing critical damage at lightning speed. Also, critical damage includes bonus damage, which the Rogue receive a lot of due to Song of Courage and the fact that the +backstab/critical damage mods have the highest numeric value in the game in terms of bonus damage.

Every last one of them assumes the rogue is always in position to backstab all the time and never gets incapacitated, and I've never heard of a rogue doing 250 damage per backstab. Actually, I seem to remember seeing math that proved it was impossible. You link your thread, I'll link mine, k?

DW rogues are strong contenders for "top dps," however relevant that title may be, but I've yet to see proof. I'm not even sure such a thing is provable in DA.

[TM13h]

AuraofMana wrote...
As an AW, you split points into too many attributes.
(...)
AW has almost no mana left.  The only mitigation is more Willpower (aka, less into Magic, less Spellpower and damage) or go Blood Mage (which means you have to pump Constitution, because unlike a regular Blood Mage, you don't turn off Blood Magic after using Blood Wound as you have no mana to use).
(...)
You also know people just drop 3-4 ticks due to Blood Wound because I max my Magic?

Like I said above, you can always go the route of putting points only into MAG, nowhere else, and still be able to use a handful sustainables and still be able to cast spells. This gives you both an impressive boost to spellpower and melee damage, and aggro comes from wearing heavy armor and certain spells (at least at higher than normal difficulty settings).

[Tirigon]

AuraofMana wrote...

An AW will never outDPS a DW Backstab Rogue.  Now that we got that out of the way, I'll explain why AW is not optimal for teamplay.

Reason: CC Mage never gets hit, needs +Magic so non-robes are useless.  AW does not fit.

Wrong. On my last playthrough, Morrigan as CC mage died 27 times, because CC draws much aggro. If even a single dualwielder resists your CC, a Non-AW is likely dead. AW is better for CC.

Who is the best tank?  It's the Warrior!
Reason: While the AW arguably survives better, the SnS Warrior has better aggro control.  A tank is a tank, it's not here to deal damage for the sake of DPS.  It's here to deal damage to help with aggro.  I rather have more aggro control through skills than aggroing through damage.  An AW will never outDPS a Rogue.

1) A dedicated tank sucks. Forcefiled + more DPS is more useful.
2) An AW gets much aggro with hexes and his high damage.
3) An AW CAN out-dps a rogue, because the rogue spends more time dead than the AW.

The Tank needs ot be kept alive, which means we are going to need a healer.  The only one who can heal in Dragon Age is the Mage, so we will need a Spirit Healer.  Your tank should never need heal that much anyway, which means your healer will never get hit.  If your healer does, you are doing something wrong.  That means AW is useless, and again, Shapeshifter is useless.  Grab Blood Mage for the +2 Magic.  Because your tank does not require a mass amount of heal, you can run Haste and spam Heroic Defense + Heroic Offense.
Party member 3: Healer Mage
Reason: Healer Mage never gets hit, and +Magic is awesome.  Also, you want +Mana Regen and +Magic and +Willpower, which you get from robes.  AW does not fit.

1) Pure Healer is a waste, you can combine healer and CC in one mage.
2)  +mana regen is given by armor rather than by robes.

Now we need DPS.  Who is the best DPS in the game?  A DW Backstab Rogue of course!  This means a Cunning Bard/Assassin DW Backstab Rogue with dual daggers auto attacking away.  Because your CC Mage is keeping targets CC'd as much as possible, backstabs happen very often which equals to more damage.
Party member 4: DW Backstab Rogue
Reason: AW will never outDPS a DW Backstab Rogue who is able to backstab close to 100% of the time and never pull aggro because we have an amazing tank.  AW doesn't fit again.

You can do with more than 1 DPS. AW is an amazing DPS in itself, + buffs or CC or whatever you want.

AW cannot outDPS a DW Warrior either. 

In Awakening maybe due to the new skills. In Origins, no. AW beats DW warrior hands down.

AW is supposed to be all versatile and have utility.  Because you split points into Dexterity, Willpower, and Magic (and some may even devote points to Constitution), your spells are terrible.

You don´t spilt much. 20 dex is enough. Willpower is barely needed because of blood magic. My AW build is usually 20 Willpower, 20 dex, 15 - 20 con, rest magic.
Of course, if your AW has low magic you are right that AW sucks. in fact, for an AW magic is even MORE important than for an non-AW mage because attack, defense and damage scale with it.

You also need to sheath your weapons to cast a lot of the spells.  I am not seeing this versatile thing, because as an AW, casting spells drops your DPS, and the spells you cast aren't even that great.

Wrong again. Many spells, e.g. glyphs, don´t need sheathing. And if a spell does, you simply switch weapons to your staff before casting.

You can't tank as well as an actual tank.  If you want to tank and DPS, the DW Warrior is a much better choice. 

DW warrior is terribly OP, but AW is much better for the team because of CC and buffs.