[quote]AuraofMana wrote...
[quote]1) AW attacks not as fast as DW, but faster than S/S and twohander[/quote]
AW attacks by auto attacking. S/S is not there to deal damage. 2H attacks faster becasue 2H Warrior spams attack skills and get Stamina back via Death Blow so it can keep going.[/quote]
Don´t tell me what I know. It doesn´t matter, AW attacks still faster.
[quote]As an AW, you split points into too many attributes. You also have no attack skills. DW is all about spamming attack skills. DW is also about AOE damage while S/S is about stunning/knockdown.[/quote]
You have spells as attack skills, and you don´t split attributes more than for a warrior. You split between magic, willpower and maybe con / dex. Warriors split between Str, will, dex and probably con.
[quote]No aggro.[/quote]
Damage gives aggro. Hexes give much aggro too - in fact too much for an Non-AW mage
[quote]If you are tanking and you are drinking potions, you are not tanking right.[/quote]
Or playing on Nightmare. If bosses hit for 150 damage in spite of your 40 armor you can´t tank without drinking potions.
[quote]You can't fill reserved mana. AW has almost no mana left. The only mitigation is more Willpower (aka, less into Magic, less Spellpower and damage) or go Blood Mage (which means you have to pump Constitution, because unlike a regular Blood Mage, you don't turn off Blood Magic after using Blood Wound as you have no mana to use).[/quote]
You have mana left because mages get more mana than warriors / rogues.
[quote]Hostile mages killing anything = fail. Mana Clash > hostile mages.[/quote]
And mana clash is a skill your AW can have if you want. Your warrior / rogue can´t..
[quote]Good luck casting CC and dropping your DPS because you need to sheath your weapons. Warrior and Rogue are not there to CC. Stop comparing strength with weakness.[/quote]
Learn to switch weapons, ffs. oh, and btw, both blood wound and paralysis explosion can be cast with weapons drawn. CP too, I think.
[quote][quote]AW can use weapon buffs[/quote]
You have Mages that can do the same.[/quote]
True, but they do not gain anything out of it. AW does.
[quote]If your Mage is dying from enemy fire, you are playing the game wrong.[/quote]
No I´m not. Except if you say playing on ightmare is wrong.
[quote]Specialization > versatility in any team game. 1 + 1 is more than 2 in teamplay.[/quote]
Not necessarily.
[quote]You know I can CC everyone and the Rogue gets to backstab every time because of Coup de Gras? You also know people just drop 3-4 ticks due to Blood Wound because I max my Magic?[/quote]
And EXACTLY the same can my AW.
[quote]2 better DPS builds out of 4 possible team member, why would I pick AW?[/quote]
Because you will still pick the dualwielder rogue and enjoy having 2 DPS chars. And because AW is DPS and CC in one.
[quote] I throw Blood Wound first in a fight, EVERYONE IS INSTANTLY CC'D. [/quote]
And so does an AW.................
[quote]Friendly fire isn't even that bad in this game.[/quote]
LOL. My AW onehitkills my healer and / or my rogue with his fireball. If that´s not bad, what is?
Why do people say AWs are so good?
Débuté par
ckriley
, mai 23 2010 01:56
Retour en haut
#52
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 10:58
d3c0yBoY
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I'm hard pressed to think that an assumption such as DW Rogues being the top dog in dps is accurate. This is even harder to swallow when comparing to the likes of a Mage, AW or otherwise. While in the melee front of the AW is severely lacking, the other functions cannot be neglected. I might be confused here but I'm under the impression that we are only comparing melee while ignoring the fact that an AW can clear a room just as fast as a rogue killing a single target. But i might be mistaken.
As for the whole requirement of having the the holy Trinity in the party, I assure you that it is not the case. All melee, all mage, all rogues, 3/1 ratio, 2/2 ratio have all been proven to run exceptionally well in nightmare. In some occasion it has proven to be better. I currently have a 2Hander Alister with no tank and it better than any sword/board set up I've play with.
As for the whole requirement of having the the holy Trinity in the party, I assure you that it is not the case. All melee, all mage, all rogues, 3/1 ratio, 2/2 ratio have all been proven to run exceptionally well in nightmare. In some occasion it has proven to be better. I currently have a 2Hander Alister with no tank and it better than any sword/board set up I've play with.
Modifié par d3c0yBoY, 26 mai 2010 - 11:04 .
#53
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:06
Tirigon
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The mistake most people who dislike AW make is to think AW is all-out meelee. It is not. In fact, an AW plays just like a normal mage for 95% of the earlygame and 80% of the later levels.
It is also a mistake to think you sacrifice much for the AW spec. You don´t. Shapechanger and Spirit healer both suck.
BTW, Shapechanger doesn´t suck anymore when you are using Combat Tweaks. In fact, with CT it´s probably the best spec in the game and I advise you to give it a try. I´m playing a Shapechager / AW atm and it´s awesome.
It is also a mistake to think you sacrifice much for the AW spec. You don´t. Shapechanger and Spirit healer both suck.
BTW, Shapechanger doesn´t suck anymore when you are using Combat Tweaks. In fact, with CT it´s probably the best spec in the game and I advise you to give it a try. I´m playing a Shapechager / AW atm and it´s awesome.
#54
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:15
d3c0yBoY
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^ I'm with you there, Tirigon. I've been dominating with my Staff wielding AW/BM with her backup Cailan's set for regen. Just because you can now use a sword/board, doesn't mean you should give yourself tunnel vision and auto attack while till the cows come home.
BTW, you almost threw yourself to the wolves (pun intended) with the Shapeshifting fans,
BTW, you almost threw yourself to the wolves (pun intended) with the Shapeshifting fans,
Modifié par d3c0yBoY, 26 mai 2010 - 11:20 .
#55
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:32
Giggles_Manically
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As an Arcane Warrior, you can blast away with hugely damaging spells, tank for a bit, and then blast away after a bit. There are like 5 spells to freeze or paralyze people/groups with so an Arcane Warrior can just dominate. Plus I can pretend to be Darth Vader!
#56
Posté 26 mai 2010 - 11:33
AuraofMana
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[quote]Oh? So I need a tank and a healer to have a team? Why do I need healer
+ tank + cc + dps? Maybe I like cc + dps + dps + cc. Still a team,
but I don't need a tank, or a healer. You say your mage doesn't need
defenses because of cc and a tank, well, I say my party doesn't need
defenses because of cc and dps.[/quote]
You can't CC the powerful bosses most of the time. You need someone there to who can ABSORB THE DAMAGE AND HOLD AGGRO while everyone else beats on the boss. DPS and healers and CC who never need to worry about getting hit means having a tank is worth it.
[quote]Healing has a cooldown, takes time, and is annoying to do. You don't
have to pause the game to use potions any more than you have to pause
the game to heal--they're functionally equal. Actually, healing is
probably a little harder because you have to click on a target. Potions
just take one click. Also, the game is quite beatable (on nightmare)
without a mage or potions, so I'm not buying the quantity argument.[/quote]
Tactics... while you can do the same with healing potions, it's a lot faster to get a healer as you never need to make potions. In addition, your healer Mage can do other things beside healing. You can beat the game without potions because you can abuse the terrible AI. You can beat the game using pretty much any build you want if you do that. Thus it's not a valid argument. I am going for efficiency, not minimality.
[quote]Every last one of them assumes the rogue is always in position to
backstab all the time and never gets incapacitated, and I've never heard
of a rogue doing 250 damage per backstab. Actually, I seem to remember
seeing math that proved it was impossible. You link your thread, I'll
link mine, k?[/quote]
Forgot to mention that was in Awakening. In Origins it is this:
http://social.biowar...66/index/223777 Post 3
[quote]Like I said above, you can always go the route of putting points only into MAG, nowhere else, and
still be able to use a handful sustainables and still be able to cast spells. This
gives you both an impressive boost to spellpower and melee damage, and
aggro comes from wearing heavy armor and certain spells (at least at
higher than normal difficulty settings).[/quote]
If AW auto-attack damage is so amazing like everyone claims, why do people use spells at all? And, how many spells do you get off before you are resorted to use Blood Magic? Because of the high fatigue, using Blood Magic is going to put your character in serious threat.
[quote]Wrong. On my last playthrough, Morrigan as CC mage died 27 times,
because CC draws much aggro. If even a single dualwielder resists your
CC, a Non-AW is likely dead. AW is better for CC.[/quote]
My first main character is the CC Mage. I run him through Nightmare just fine. Got the achievement for never falling in combat without reloading too much because the game is a walk in the park with CC. Also never attracted a lot of aggro. Allistair died a lot in the beginning, but oh well, that's what a tank is for.
[quote]1) A dedicated tank sucks. Forcefiled + more DPS is more useful.
2)
An AW gets much aggro with hexes and his high damage.
3) An AW CAN
out-dps a rogue, because the rogue spends more time dead than the AW.[/quote]
1) How do you keep aggro if your tank is force field'd?
2) Nope, Warrior have aggro control skills. Was pretty effective in Origins, and even more in Awakening.
3) Again, Rogue never gets hit. Teamwork makes it possible. I don't know where you get the idea that everyone else is a paper doll and your AW is amazingly undestructible god of doom, but that's not how the game works.
[quote]1) Pure Healer is a waste, you can combine healer and CC in one mage.
2)
+mana regen is given by armor rather than by robes.[/quote]
1) And I do, because there are only really 8 healing spells and at least 2 of them are terrible. The primary role is still healer because I have a primary CC Mage.
2) +Magic is also quite important. The best +Mana Regen armor is Cailan's, and it seems it is the best if it goes on an AW in your party. Also, heavy armor = aggro. Healing is already a high aggro risk and barely enough not to attract aggro from the tank.
[quote]You can do with more than 1 DPS. AW is an amazing DPS in itself, +
buffs or CC or whatever you want.[/quote]
You won't be DPSing when you are busy CCing. That's the problem.
[quote]In Awakening maybe due to the new skills. In Origins, no. AW beats DW
warrior hands down.[/quote]
Correct. In terms of AOE DW does win out, but that's because DW is specialized against AOE while AW is better against single target.
[quote]You don´t spilt much. 20 dex is enough. Willpower is barely needed
because of blood magic. My AW build is usually 20 Willpower, 20 dex, 15 -
20 con, rest magic.
Of course, if your AW has low magic you are
right that AW sucks. in fact, for an AW magic is even MORE important
than for an non-AW mage because attack, defense and damage scale with
it.[/quote]
I can barely get CC's off on elite bosses (especially the archdemon) with max magic on nightmare, I don't see how you manage to.
[quote]Wrong again. Many spells, e.g. glyphs, don´t need sheathing. And if a
spell does, you simply switch weapons to your staff before casting.[/quote]
Too many sustainables making the cost too great. Lower spellpower cost spells to be resisted too often.
[quote]DW warrior is terribly OP, but AW is much better for the team because of
CC and buffs.[/quote]
I don't agree.
[quote]Don´t tell me what I know. It doesn´t matter, AW attacks still faster.[/quote]
I didn't tell you what you know, I told you what my experience is. Whether or not you believe me is your own thing.
[quote]You have spells as attack skills, and you don´t split attributes more
than for a warrior. You split between magic, willpower and maybe con /
dex. Warriors split between Str, will, dex and probably con.[/quote]
Attack skills are based on your physical damage. AW physical damage is high because it is augmented by buff spells, which do not go toward spell damage. Warrior splits between Strength and Dexterity (Strength only as 2H). You never put points into other attributes (Cunning doesn't need it either due to Fade bonus).
[quote]Damage gives aggro. Hexes give much aggro too - in fact too much for an
Non-AW mage[/quote]
I never have that problem as a CC Mage, it might have to do with the fact that I have a Warrior Tank.
[quote]Or playing on Nightmare. If bosses hit for 150 damage in spite of your
40 armor you can´t tank without drinking potions.[/quote]
Max Dexterity on a Warrior Tank. 160+ Defense makes you pretty much invincible.
[quote]You have mana left because mages get more mana than warriors / rogues.[/quote]
Warriors and Rogues have Stamina. I assume you mistyped. Willpower adds 5 to Mana or Stamina. Warrior and Rogue can get Stamina back via talents (Rogues don't even use their Stamina). AW doesn't get that. It relies on Blood Magic to sacrifice a health. It already doesn't have a lot of Constitution, and devoting more points Constitution means less Magic.
[quote]And mana clash is a skill your AW can have if you want. Your warrior /
rogue can´t..[/quote]
No, but my Warrior can hold aggro and my Rogue can outDPS.
[quote]Learn to switch weapons, ffs. oh, and btw, both blood wound and
paralysis explosion can be cast with weapons drawn. CP too, I think.[/quote]
You gotta switch on Blood Magic, cast your spells, switch Blood Magic off, switch weapon again, and attack. All of this goes on with your horrible high fatigue. And while you are doing this, you can't DPS by auto attacking.
[quote]True, but they do not gain anything out of it. AW does.[/quote]
True, but the team builds off of each other's strength and wards off each other's weakness. That's why 1 + 1 is greater than 2.
[quote]No I´m not. Except if you say playing on ightmare is wrong.[/quote]
Plenty of people have played Nightmare and never have any party members die. I never needed to drink potions playing a Mage in Nightmare.
[quote][quote]Specialization > versatility in any
team game. 1 + 1 is more than 2 in teamplay.[/quote]
Not
necessarily.[/quote]
There's a reason you have roles in a team-oriented game. You are supposed to cover each other. This is pretty much common sense nowadays.
[quote]And EXACTLY the same can my AW.[/quote]
Not as effectively.
[quote]Because you will still pick the dualwielder rogue and enjoy having 2 DPS
chars. And because AW is DPS and CC in one.[/quote]
Except I can CC and not get resisted more often than you, so my Rogue has a higher DPS. I rather let the Rogue have a higher DPS because the Rogue can deal the most damage out of any other build.
[quote]And so does an AW.................[/quote]
So if you are tanking, you somehow throw spells at the cost of health with all your high fatigue goes on, and then somehow you DPS while you are throwing these spells, and somehow still tank despite throwing a bunch of high power, high cost spells at the cost of a huge chunk of health. That's the impression I am getting right now, maybe that's not what you wanted to mean.
[quote]LOL. My AW onehitkills my healer and / or my rogue with his fireball. If
that´s not bad, what is?[/quote]
Pause and click? I never have friendly fire problems.
[quote]As for the whole requirement of having the the holy Trinity in the
party, I assure you that it is not the case.[/quote]
I agree, but I find this to be the fastest in clearing Origins. Awakening is entirely different.
[quote]All melee, all mage, all rogues, 3/1 ratio, 2/2 ratio have all been
proven to run exceptionally well in nightmare.[/quote]
Can't get all Mages, only 3/4. No Mage runs are usually done as a challenge, as the Mage buffs so well that it enhances the party massively. Didn't say no other builds can run exceptionally well, I just said I think my build runs through the easiest.
I played Mage through Origins + Awakening 2x. Played every other build through at least Origins once. I tried AW and I was not impressed. It's incredibly terrible early game, and doesn't really shine until level 12-14. Got there, and had the most boring time playing it. Monsters kept resisting my spells, and I miss too much. Kept going and got high level, then I realized when I am trying to play caster, I am not doing my job of doing melee DPS. When I try doing melee DPS, I am not doing my job of CCing. Through all of this, aggro is incredibly hard to hold, and everything goes downhill when monsters ignore you and go for your allies. I was extremely disappointed. I am pretty sure it dominates solo, but for teamplay? There are better options.
It felt more fun playing early game 2H Warrior, and early game 2H Warrior is terribly boring.
Awesome concept in specialization, not suitable for me. I think it could be improved, but probably won't be.
+ tank + cc + dps? Maybe I like cc + dps + dps + cc. Still a team,
but I don't need a tank, or a healer. You say your mage doesn't need
defenses because of cc and a tank, well, I say my party doesn't need
defenses because of cc and dps.[/quote]
You can't CC the powerful bosses most of the time. You need someone there to who can ABSORB THE DAMAGE AND HOLD AGGRO while everyone else beats on the boss. DPS and healers and CC who never need to worry about getting hit means having a tank is worth it.
[quote]Healing has a cooldown, takes time, and is annoying to do. You don't
have to pause the game to use potions any more than you have to pause
the game to heal--they're functionally equal. Actually, healing is
probably a little harder because you have to click on a target. Potions
just take one click. Also, the game is quite beatable (on nightmare)
without a mage or potions, so I'm not buying the quantity argument.[/quote]
Tactics... while you can do the same with healing potions, it's a lot faster to get a healer as you never need to make potions. In addition, your healer Mage can do other things beside healing. You can beat the game without potions because you can abuse the terrible AI. You can beat the game using pretty much any build you want if you do that. Thus it's not a valid argument. I am going for efficiency, not minimality.
[quote]Every last one of them assumes the rogue is always in position to
backstab all the time and never gets incapacitated, and I've never heard
of a rogue doing 250 damage per backstab. Actually, I seem to remember
seeing math that proved it was impossible. You link your thread, I'll
link mine, k?[/quote]
Forgot to mention that was in Awakening. In Origins it is this:
http://social.biowar...66/index/223777 Post 3
[quote]Like I said above, you can always go the route of putting points only into MAG, nowhere else, and
still be able to use a handful sustainables and still be able to cast spells. This
gives you both an impressive boost to spellpower and melee damage, and
aggro comes from wearing heavy armor and certain spells (at least at
higher than normal difficulty settings).[/quote]
If AW auto-attack damage is so amazing like everyone claims, why do people use spells at all? And, how many spells do you get off before you are resorted to use Blood Magic? Because of the high fatigue, using Blood Magic is going to put your character in serious threat.
[quote]Wrong. On my last playthrough, Morrigan as CC mage died 27 times,
because CC draws much aggro. If even a single dualwielder resists your
CC, a Non-AW is likely dead. AW is better for CC.[/quote]
My first main character is the CC Mage. I run him through Nightmare just fine. Got the achievement for never falling in combat without reloading too much because the game is a walk in the park with CC. Also never attracted a lot of aggro. Allistair died a lot in the beginning, but oh well, that's what a tank is for.
[quote]1) A dedicated tank sucks. Forcefiled + more DPS is more useful.
2)
An AW gets much aggro with hexes and his high damage.
3) An AW CAN
out-dps a rogue, because the rogue spends more time dead than the AW.[/quote]
1) How do you keep aggro if your tank is force field'd?
2) Nope, Warrior have aggro control skills. Was pretty effective in Origins, and even more in Awakening.
3) Again, Rogue never gets hit. Teamwork makes it possible. I don't know where you get the idea that everyone else is a paper doll and your AW is amazingly undestructible god of doom, but that's not how the game works.
[quote]1) Pure Healer is a waste, you can combine healer and CC in one mage.
2)
+mana regen is given by armor rather than by robes.[/quote]
1) And I do, because there are only really 8 healing spells and at least 2 of them are terrible. The primary role is still healer because I have a primary CC Mage.
2) +Magic is also quite important. The best +Mana Regen armor is Cailan's, and it seems it is the best if it goes on an AW in your party. Also, heavy armor = aggro. Healing is already a high aggro risk and barely enough not to attract aggro from the tank.
[quote]You can do with more than 1 DPS. AW is an amazing DPS in itself, +
buffs or CC or whatever you want.[/quote]
You won't be DPSing when you are busy CCing. That's the problem.
[quote]In Awakening maybe due to the new skills. In Origins, no. AW beats DW
warrior hands down.[/quote]
Correct. In terms of AOE DW does win out, but that's because DW is specialized against AOE while AW is better against single target.
[quote]You don´t spilt much. 20 dex is enough. Willpower is barely needed
because of blood magic. My AW build is usually 20 Willpower, 20 dex, 15 -
20 con, rest magic.
Of course, if your AW has low magic you are
right that AW sucks. in fact, for an AW magic is even MORE important
than for an non-AW mage because attack, defense and damage scale with
it.[/quote]
I can barely get CC's off on elite bosses (especially the archdemon) with max magic on nightmare, I don't see how you manage to.
[quote]Wrong again. Many spells, e.g. glyphs, don´t need sheathing. And if a
spell does, you simply switch weapons to your staff before casting.[/quote]
Too many sustainables making the cost too great. Lower spellpower cost spells to be resisted too often.
[quote]DW warrior is terribly OP, but AW is much better for the team because of
CC and buffs.[/quote]
I don't agree.
[quote]Don´t tell me what I know. It doesn´t matter, AW attacks still faster.[/quote]
I didn't tell you what you know, I told you what my experience is. Whether or not you believe me is your own thing.
[quote]You have spells as attack skills, and you don´t split attributes more
than for a warrior. You split between magic, willpower and maybe con /
dex. Warriors split between Str, will, dex and probably con.[/quote]
Attack skills are based on your physical damage. AW physical damage is high because it is augmented by buff spells, which do not go toward spell damage. Warrior splits between Strength and Dexterity (Strength only as 2H). You never put points into other attributes (Cunning doesn't need it either due to Fade bonus).
[quote]Damage gives aggro. Hexes give much aggro too - in fact too much for an
Non-AW mage[/quote]
I never have that problem as a CC Mage, it might have to do with the fact that I have a Warrior Tank.
[quote]Or playing on Nightmare. If bosses hit for 150 damage in spite of your
40 armor you can´t tank without drinking potions.[/quote]
Max Dexterity on a Warrior Tank. 160+ Defense makes you pretty much invincible.
[quote]You have mana left because mages get more mana than warriors / rogues.[/quote]
Warriors and Rogues have Stamina. I assume you mistyped. Willpower adds 5 to Mana or Stamina. Warrior and Rogue can get Stamina back via talents (Rogues don't even use their Stamina). AW doesn't get that. It relies on Blood Magic to sacrifice a health. It already doesn't have a lot of Constitution, and devoting more points Constitution means less Magic.
[quote]And mana clash is a skill your AW can have if you want. Your warrior /
rogue can´t..[/quote]
No, but my Warrior can hold aggro and my Rogue can outDPS.
[quote]Learn to switch weapons, ffs. oh, and btw, both blood wound and
paralysis explosion can be cast with weapons drawn. CP too, I think.[/quote]
You gotta switch on Blood Magic, cast your spells, switch Blood Magic off, switch weapon again, and attack. All of this goes on with your horrible high fatigue. And while you are doing this, you can't DPS by auto attacking.
[quote]True, but they do not gain anything out of it. AW does.[/quote]
True, but the team builds off of each other's strength and wards off each other's weakness. That's why 1 + 1 is greater than 2.
[quote]No I´m not. Except if you say playing on ightmare is wrong.[/quote]
Plenty of people have played Nightmare and never have any party members die. I never needed to drink potions playing a Mage in Nightmare.
[quote][quote]Specialization > versatility in any
team game. 1 + 1 is more than 2 in teamplay.[/quote]
Not
necessarily.[/quote]
There's a reason you have roles in a team-oriented game. You are supposed to cover each other. This is pretty much common sense nowadays.
[quote]And EXACTLY the same can my AW.[/quote]
Not as effectively.
[quote]Because you will still pick the dualwielder rogue and enjoy having 2 DPS
chars. And because AW is DPS and CC in one.[/quote]
Except I can CC and not get resisted more often than you, so my Rogue has a higher DPS. I rather let the Rogue have a higher DPS because the Rogue can deal the most damage out of any other build.
[quote]And so does an AW.................[/quote]
So if you are tanking, you somehow throw spells at the cost of health with all your high fatigue goes on, and then somehow you DPS while you are throwing these spells, and somehow still tank despite throwing a bunch of high power, high cost spells at the cost of a huge chunk of health. That's the impression I am getting right now, maybe that's not what you wanted to mean.
[quote]LOL. My AW onehitkills my healer and / or my rogue with his fireball. If
that´s not bad, what is?[/quote]
Pause and click? I never have friendly fire problems.
[quote]As for the whole requirement of having the the holy Trinity in the
party, I assure you that it is not the case.[/quote]
I agree, but I find this to be the fastest in clearing Origins. Awakening is entirely different.
[quote]All melee, all mage, all rogues, 3/1 ratio, 2/2 ratio have all been
proven to run exceptionally well in nightmare.[/quote]
Can't get all Mages, only 3/4. No Mage runs are usually done as a challenge, as the Mage buffs so well that it enhances the party massively. Didn't say no other builds can run exceptionally well, I just said I think my build runs through the easiest.
I played Mage through Origins + Awakening 2x. Played every other build through at least Origins once. I tried AW and I was not impressed. It's incredibly terrible early game, and doesn't really shine until level 12-14. Got there, and had the most boring time playing it. Monsters kept resisting my spells, and I miss too much. Kept going and got high level, then I realized when I am trying to play caster, I am not doing my job of doing melee DPS. When I try doing melee DPS, I am not doing my job of CCing. Through all of this, aggro is incredibly hard to hold, and everything goes downhill when monsters ignore you and go for your allies. I was extremely disappointed. I am pretty sure it dominates solo, but for teamplay? There are better options.
It felt more fun playing early game 2H Warrior, and early game 2H Warrior is terribly boring.
Awesome concept in specialization, not suitable for me. I think it could be improved, but probably won't be.
#57
Posté 27 mai 2010 - 01:37
Tirigon
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- Members
- 8 573 messages
[quote]AuraofMana wrote...
[quote]You don´t spilt much. 20 dex is enough. Willpower is barely needed
because of blood magic. My AW build is usually 20 Willpower, 20 dex, 15 -
20 con, rest magic.
Of course, if your AW has low magic you are
right that AW sucks. in fact, for an AW magic is even MORE important
than for an non-AW mage because attack, defense and damage scale with
it.[/quote]
I can barely get CC's off on elite bosses (especially the archdemon) with max magic on nightmare, I don't see how you manage to.[/quote]
I don´t; it is not always needed. I tend to CC the mobs to wipe them quickly, then just use ptions to tank until the boss is dead. With AW + dualwielder backstabs + hasted 2hander + weaponbuffs + poison they die quickly.
In case of the Archdemon I drink a spirit balm and shoot from afar until it drops dead. His spells can barely wound you cos of the balm, and what little damage you get is dixed with a potion.
[quote][quote]Or playing on Nightmare. If bosses hit for 150 damage in spite of your
40 armor you can´t tank without drinking potions.[/quote]
Max Dexterity on a Warrior Tank. 160+ Defense makes you pretty much invincible.[/quote]
I disagree; I managed to get more than 210 attack once, that would mean every attack hits your rogue. And when he´s stuuned, evasion is gone anyways, nor does dex protect from spells.
[quote]Warriors and Rogues have Stamina. I assume you mistyped. Willpower adds 5 to Mana or Stamina. Warrior and Rogue can get Stamina back via talents (Rogues don't even use their Stamina). AW doesn't get that. It relies on Blood Magic to sacrifice a health. It already doesn't have a lot of Constitution, and devoting more points Constitution means less Magic.[/quote]
I only said mana because I´m lazy, and stamina does for rogues / warriors what mana does for mages. But you´re of course right.
What I meant is, the mana / stamina gain per level: 6 for mage, 5 for rogue, 4 for warrior.
[quote]No, but my Warrior can hold aggro and my Rogue can outDPS.[/quote]
True, that´s why my AW isn´t alone but has always 1 rogue and 1 warrior with her.
[quote]You gotta switch on Blood Magic, cast your spells, switch Blood Magic off, switch weapon again, and attack. All of this goes on with your horrible high fatigue. And while you are doing this, you can't DPS by auto attacking.[/quote]
well. If I plan to cast I calculate how much mana I need for what I want to cast and if it´s too much I don´t start with combat magic turned on but only activate it after casting. And fatigue is less of an issue than you´d think - one of wade´s armors gives a set bonus that allows you to have -25%, and so do some modded armors - personally I use Ivory Tower
[quote]There's a reason you have roles in a team-oriented game. You are supposed to cover each other. This is pretty much common sense nowadays.[/quote]
Sadly, it may be harder that way. During some parts I find it easier to put my party on hold and go alone than to protect my squishies.
[quote]Except I can CC and not get resisted more often than you, so my Rogue has a higher DPS. I rather let the Rogue have a higher DPS because the Rogue can deal the most damage out of any other build.[/quote]
That´s true if rogue is your main char. But I always try to get as much kills / damage with my main char, even if it´s a mage. It is a matter of pride; I can´t have someone who is not even a Warden have higher damage than me.
[quote]So if you are tanking, you somehow throw spells at the cost of health with all your high fatigue goes on, and then somehow you DPS while you are throwing these spells, and somehow still tank despite throwing a bunch of high power, high cost spells at the cost of a huge chunk of health. That's the impression I am getting right now, maybe that's not what you wanted to mean.[/quote]
Thing is, potions scale with spellpower. That means on a high-level mage even a normal potion heals about 300 hp. And then there´s blood sacrifice. Also, blood magic decreases spell costs - it only costs 0.8, improved 0.6 times the mana cost.
[quote][quote]LOL. My AW onehitkills my healer and / or my rogue with his fireball. If
that´s not bad, what is?[/quote]
Pause and click? I never have friendly fire problems.[/quote]
That doesn´t work if your target is surrounded by your party, or if such a damned rogue attacks from invis...
[quote]Awesome concept in specialization, not suitable for me. I think it could be improved, but probably won't be.
[/quote]
Look at DragonAgeNexus; there are some mods who add new skills, and 1 that allows AW to use warrior talents. Maybe you´ll like that.
[quote]You don´t spilt much. 20 dex is enough. Willpower is barely needed
because of blood magic. My AW build is usually 20 Willpower, 20 dex, 15 -
20 con, rest magic.
Of course, if your AW has low magic you are
right that AW sucks. in fact, for an AW magic is even MORE important
than for an non-AW mage because attack, defense and damage scale with
it.[/quote]
I can barely get CC's off on elite bosses (especially the archdemon) with max magic on nightmare, I don't see how you manage to.[/quote]
I don´t; it is not always needed. I tend to CC the mobs to wipe them quickly, then just use ptions to tank until the boss is dead. With AW + dualwielder backstabs + hasted 2hander + weaponbuffs + poison they die quickly.
In case of the Archdemon I drink a spirit balm and shoot from afar until it drops dead. His spells can barely wound you cos of the balm, and what little damage you get is dixed with a potion.
[quote][quote]Or playing on Nightmare. If bosses hit for 150 damage in spite of your
40 armor you can´t tank without drinking potions.[/quote]
Max Dexterity on a Warrior Tank. 160+ Defense makes you pretty much invincible.[/quote]
I disagree; I managed to get more than 210 attack once, that would mean every attack hits your rogue. And when he´s stuuned, evasion is gone anyways, nor does dex protect from spells.
[quote]Warriors and Rogues have Stamina. I assume you mistyped. Willpower adds 5 to Mana or Stamina. Warrior and Rogue can get Stamina back via talents (Rogues don't even use their Stamina). AW doesn't get that. It relies on Blood Magic to sacrifice a health. It already doesn't have a lot of Constitution, and devoting more points Constitution means less Magic.[/quote]
I only said mana because I´m lazy, and stamina does for rogues / warriors what mana does for mages. But you´re of course right.
What I meant is, the mana / stamina gain per level: 6 for mage, 5 for rogue, 4 for warrior.
[quote]No, but my Warrior can hold aggro and my Rogue can outDPS.[/quote]
True, that´s why my AW isn´t alone but has always 1 rogue and 1 warrior with her.
[quote]You gotta switch on Blood Magic, cast your spells, switch Blood Magic off, switch weapon again, and attack. All of this goes on with your horrible high fatigue. And while you are doing this, you can't DPS by auto attacking.[/quote]
well. If I plan to cast I calculate how much mana I need for what I want to cast and if it´s too much I don´t start with combat magic turned on but only activate it after casting. And fatigue is less of an issue than you´d think - one of wade´s armors gives a set bonus that allows you to have -25%, and so do some modded armors - personally I use Ivory Tower
[quote]There's a reason you have roles in a team-oriented game. You are supposed to cover each other. This is pretty much common sense nowadays.[/quote]
Sadly, it may be harder that way. During some parts I find it easier to put my party on hold and go alone than to protect my squishies.
[quote]Except I can CC and not get resisted more often than you, so my Rogue has a higher DPS. I rather let the Rogue have a higher DPS because the Rogue can deal the most damage out of any other build.[/quote]
That´s true if rogue is your main char. But I always try to get as much kills / damage with my main char, even if it´s a mage. It is a matter of pride; I can´t have someone who is not even a Warden have higher damage than me.
[quote]So if you are tanking, you somehow throw spells at the cost of health with all your high fatigue goes on, and then somehow you DPS while you are throwing these spells, and somehow still tank despite throwing a bunch of high power, high cost spells at the cost of a huge chunk of health. That's the impression I am getting right now, maybe that's not what you wanted to mean.[/quote]
Thing is, potions scale with spellpower. That means on a high-level mage even a normal potion heals about 300 hp. And then there´s blood sacrifice. Also, blood magic decreases spell costs - it only costs 0.8, improved 0.6 times the mana cost.
[quote][quote]LOL. My AW onehitkills my healer and / or my rogue with his fireball. If
that´s not bad, what is?[/quote]
Pause and click? I never have friendly fire problems.[/quote]
That doesn´t work if your target is surrounded by your party, or if such a damned rogue attacks from invis...
[quote]Awesome concept in specialization, not suitable for me. I think it could be improved, but probably won't be.
[/quote]
Look at DragonAgeNexus; there are some mods who add new skills, and 1 that allows AW to use warrior talents. Maybe you´ll like that.
#58
Posté 27 mai 2010 - 02:31
soteria
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You can't CC the powerful bosses most of the time. You need someone there to who can ABSORB THE DAMAGE AND HOLD AGGRO while everyone else beats on the boss. DPS and healers and CC who never need to worry about getting hit means having a tank is worth it.
Every humanoid boss is vulnerable to knockdowns and overwhelms, and those last full duration. The others are mostly automatically hitting your party anyway, so a 2h warrior in massive armor is every bit as effective as a high-defense SnS warrior. Besides, by ditching the healer and tank and focusing more on damage, fights end so fast you don't have to worry about ABSORBING DAMAGE AND HOLDING AGGRO.
Tactics... while you can do the same with healing potions, it's a lot faster to get a healer as you never need to make potions. In addition, your healer Mage can do other things beside healing. You can beat the game without potions because you can abuse the terrible AI. You can beat the game using pretty much any build you want if you do that. Thus it's not a valid argument. I am going for efficiency, not minimality.
Really? Are you seriously saying that making potions takes a long time? I could make like fifteen of them in less time than it takes me to type this sentence. Seriously. Regardless, beating the game with only potions you find on the ground is trivial. And sure, your healer can do other things than healing, but so what? It's not like warriors just sit there quaffing potions while waiting to get hit. Leastwise, mine don't.
Which fight is it that you think requires AI abuse to beat without potions or a healer? Killing the high dragon is a little messy, but otherwise all the fights are pretty straightforward. I'm not talking about abusing the AI--I'm talking about playing efficiently, which means streamlining your group and focusing on offense instead of wasting your time and mana healing. I don't use potions because it makes the game more interesting for me--abusing the AI would be counterproductive.
#59
Posté 27 mai 2010 - 02:40
Wicked 702
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While I'm not going to wade into the rest of this discussion, it's clear that there are quite a few ways to play an AW that seem to end with differing results.
For example, I always run Rock Armor, Arcane Shield, Flaming Weapons, and Miasma (I hate how it auto turns off when you switch rooms). I have my switch weapons hotkeyed to one of my controller buttons (Xbox, but I know you can do the same with a keyboard on PC). Battle starts off with me casting a fireball, crushing prison, and maybe a gylph or hex. I might even cast healing a couple times on my other teammates. I have plenty of mana for all of that and my will is only 20. If/when it's time to go melee, I simply click the hotkeyed switch weapons (which changes them INSTANTLY) and then activate combat magic. I can go from staff casting to melee combat ready in about 2-3 seconds.
If you're having to sheath weapons or aren't casting spells like a normal mage at the beginning of battle then I think you are missing the point of an AW. For me, I'm a regular mage for the first half of battle and the super-hard hitting melee attacker for the rest.
For example, I always run Rock Armor, Arcane Shield, Flaming Weapons, and Miasma (I hate how it auto turns off when you switch rooms). I have my switch weapons hotkeyed to one of my controller buttons (Xbox, but I know you can do the same with a keyboard on PC). Battle starts off with me casting a fireball, crushing prison, and maybe a gylph or hex. I might even cast healing a couple times on my other teammates. I have plenty of mana for all of that and my will is only 20. If/when it's time to go melee, I simply click the hotkeyed switch weapons (which changes them INSTANTLY) and then activate combat magic. I can go from staff casting to melee combat ready in about 2-3 seconds.
If you're having to sheath weapons or aren't casting spells like a normal mage at the beginning of battle then I think you are missing the point of an AW. For me, I'm a regular mage for the first half of battle and the super-hard hitting melee attacker for the rest.
#60
Posté 27 mai 2010 - 04:06
beancounter501
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soteria wrote...
Besides, by ditching the healer and tank and focusing more on damage, fights end so fast you don't have to worry about ABSORBING DAMAGE AND HOLDING AGGRO.
Man that just needs repeating. Battles are far easier without a dead wood tank and healer. Dead monsters don't attack.
Defensively an AW can be very strong wearing some good armor. Melee side is not nearly as impressive. Now if you want to say the Armored Caster is strong - I would agree. But the full tank AW who mostly uses melee? Not nearly as effective.
#61
Posté 27 mai 2010 - 07:48
TM13h
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beancounter501 wrote...
soteria wrote...
Besides, by ditching the healer and tank and focusing more on damage, fights end so fast you don't have to worry about ABSORBING DAMAGE AND HOLDING AGGRO.
Man that just needs repeating. Battles are far easier without a dead wood tank and healer. Dead monsters don't attack.
Defensively an AW can be very strong wearing some good armor. Melee side is not nearly as impressive. Now if you want to say the Armored Caster is strong - I would agree. But the full tank AW who mostly uses melee? Not nearly as effective.
I agree.
Let's not forget what this topic is about: The question why many people are claiming AWs to be really good. This does not mean you have to out-DPS a perfectly positioned DW rogue or hold aggro as good as a warrior tank. It means that you are a jack-of-all-trades who can fill in the role of ranged dps, going solo on a high dragon (try that with a DW rogue, popping a poultrice every few seconds, having to constantly circle around the mob to try to land a backstab), support with heals and buffs, and doing close range dps while the tank is holding aggro. And I dare say the AW in Dragon Age does this better than comparable classes in D&D or other systems that can do a bit of everything but usually with less than impressive results. There is too much theorycraft in this topic, taking perfect situations as the basis, whilst in reality combat is dynamic, and an AW is a master of adjusting to changing situations. That is what makes an AW so good and, in my opinion, superior to other classes.
#62
Posté 27 mai 2010 - 10:05
memtz
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My 3rd character is a AW/BM (and BattleM in Awakening) and since the second half of Origins, I never needed to use potions and lyrium potions at all on nightmare. In fact, it was easy with this build. You max out all resistances (and only a spirit warrior can resist more), armor and defense, use the right sustaining spells for threat. With mana/stamina regeneration equipment and talents/spells you don't lose much mana and use all spells with blood magic from your abundant health. You also have dark sustenance from Warden's keep DLC and Stoic from BattleM in Awakening. Since you rarely get hit and for very low damage, your hp can drop down to 50-150 depending on your level without any fear.
I also constantly switched melee/staff in origins but dropped that in Awakening and stuck on sword/shield since there's a heraldry in Awakening that gives a +20 stat boost, heh...!
I didn't need any spirit healer at all in Awakening, regular heal with on 2 AW (the other being Velanna) was enough and using Cleansing Aura for a AW is a waste of ressources for me considering there are other useful sustaining spells that drain mana rapidly.
I also constantly switched melee/staff in origins but dropped that in Awakening and stuck on sword/shield since there's a heraldry in Awakening that gives a +20 stat boost, heh...!
I didn't need any spirit healer at all in Awakening, regular heal with on 2 AW (the other being Velanna) was enough and using Cleansing Aura for a AW is a waste of ressources for me considering there are other useful sustaining spells that drain mana rapidly.
Modifié par memtz, 27 mai 2010 - 10:12 .
#63
Posté 28 mai 2010 - 07:33
MindYerBeak
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I became an AW Mage and at level 11 did battle in the Tower of Magi. I opened a door and got swamped with baddies, including a yellow demon and possessed knights. Another door had opened and out poured more baddies. My team was overwhelved, and I lost 3 team members fairly quickly. My first thought was to reload and start again, but decided to stick it out to see how far into the battle I could progress alone.
I had my back to the wall and a shedful of baddies were being very cheeky to my pulverised body. I just let the battle continue on auto, since I didn't expect to win anyway. I let the AW animations play out. All I did was feed my AW with healing potions.
So there I was, a level 11 wimp, surrounded by a shedful of nasty, very cheeky, baddies, enough to make my mother weep a bucketful of tears - or die laughing. When my health dropped to 50% I gulped down a weaker health potion. My health was restored to full. I ended up the victor eventually.
I also encountered a few ogres at level 11. Two keyclicks (spells) and they were dead! Kaput! How long would it take you to kill an ogre at level 11 with a full team, with no AW as a member? Try popping them off with two keyclicks and see how far you get. Mine were done and dusted in just a few short seconds. It would take a normal team several minutes. This is the advantage I find with an AW, in big battles you can finish them much sooner and progress through the game much faster. Some of the battles can be long winded and lengthy in some areas. With an AW in the team you can mop up much faster.
I had my back to the wall and a shedful of baddies were being very cheeky to my pulverised body. I just let the battle continue on auto, since I didn't expect to win anyway. I let the AW animations play out. All I did was feed my AW with healing potions.
So there I was, a level 11 wimp, surrounded by a shedful of nasty, very cheeky, baddies, enough to make my mother weep a bucketful of tears - or die laughing. When my health dropped to 50% I gulped down a weaker health potion. My health was restored to full. I ended up the victor eventually.
I also encountered a few ogres at level 11. Two keyclicks (spells) and they were dead! Kaput! How long would it take you to kill an ogre at level 11 with a full team, with no AW as a member? Try popping them off with two keyclicks and see how far you get. Mine were done and dusted in just a few short seconds. It would take a normal team several minutes. This is the advantage I find with an AW, in big battles you can finish them much sooner and progress through the game much faster. Some of the battles can be long winded and lengthy in some areas. With an AW in the team you can mop up much faster.
#64
Posté 29 mai 2010 - 02:34
lazorexplosion
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The relative weakness of AW auto-attacks is why I like my staff using caster AW! I just use the AW spec for excellent armor and resistances (shimmering shield is great) - and if you aren't using combat magic you can still cast very effectively, especially with lighter armor like felon's coat. All the power of a caster mage with much less weakness.
#65
Posté 01 juin 2010 - 06:39
MindYerBeak
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In addition an AW can dual weild. Bin his shield, he doesn't need it, he's armoured up enough as it is. Equip him with a 2nd sword and he'll make the baddies weep, especially if Hasted. You can also take off your armour and change into your dress and lipstick for easier battles. The Proving proved to be a breeze today. I didn't need a second to finish the last fight. Each fight was over in seconds. Crushing Prison and Rockfist was all I needed for most of the fights. Feel my poweh!
Modifié par MindYerBeak, 01 juin 2010 - 06:46 .
#66
Posté 01 juin 2010 - 08:16
TM13h
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MindYerBeak wrote...
In addition an AW can dual weild. Bin his shield, he doesn't need it, he's armoured up enough as it is.
An AW doesn't need a shield for armor but for the boni. Be it Cailan's arms set, be it Fade Wall, dual-wielding means to miss out an a few pretty nice boni. In Awakening, ditching the shield with the +20 to all stats bonus from the Legion of the Dead heraldry seems like a complete waste to me. On the other hand, this decision depends heavily on your playstyle.
#67
Posté 01 juin 2010 - 11:09
Elhanan
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heh! Yesterday I was playing my current AW in the Deeproads, and was trying some spells and combos not familiar to me. I was so engrossed at what the Warden was doing that I lost track of the party. Then during a momentary pause, I looked up from my keyboard to find that the rest of party was dead while the Warden was unscathed.
Never considered Deepstalkers much of a threat until then....
Never considered Deepstalkers much of a threat until then....
#68
Posté 01 juin 2010 - 11:39
1varangian
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The indestructible AW with sustainables+auto attack is just incredibly boring to play.
What they need the most is access to weapon talents. It should be up to the player how far into warrior and how far into mage he will spec his character. One should always come at the expense of the other. Putting points into str and dex to qualify for weapon talents leaves less points for magic. Melee without weapon talents is like christmas without presents. Talents could easily drain mana though the difference between mana and stamina is so negligible to begin with they could just axe mana and have mages use stamina instead. Bottom line is that auto attacks and sustainables are boring and active talents are fun.
AW's also need some cloth/light/medium that looks more like arcane warrior and less like vanilla mage or warrior. But the lack of different looks is something DA lacks as a whole.
What they need the most is access to weapon talents. It should be up to the player how far into warrior and how far into mage he will spec his character. One should always come at the expense of the other. Putting points into str and dex to qualify for weapon talents leaves less points for magic. Melee without weapon talents is like christmas without presents. Talents could easily drain mana though the difference between mana and stamina is so negligible to begin with they could just axe mana and have mages use stamina instead. Bottom line is that auto attacks and sustainables are boring and active talents are fun.
AW's also need some cloth/light/medium that looks more like arcane warrior and less like vanilla mage or warrior. But the lack of different looks is something DA lacks as a whole.
