103 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

) the companions are as good as the player. If YOU suck, THEY suck.

Obviously you can complete the game with using Alistair as your maintank, pumping attribute and skill books into him, and then make him a killing machine, since then he will be quite strong, because you ignored your other companions. Good job, but when you are trying to moderate things and spread items and books evenly so that none of your companions falls short ( as I do ), you start realizing by the end who is the weakest link.

When you start looking it from an even perspective, and start considering which characters are good or not, you will find things turn out differently.

My point wasn't that Alistair is the weakest, since Dog and Shale are given the fact they can't use rings/trinket/belt and thus fall short compared to others in stats. But that Alistair is the weakest chain compared to the warrior melee companions.

Pumping his dex for the defense bonus makes him much more durable than Sten, since 2hers only really have use for str.

You speak as if Alistair doesn't need a lot of Strength, he does need it to use the highend armors.Alistair only can become great in the very endgame, but for the rest of the game Sten is better, since he can and will get the ability to wear better armor faster, becomes knockdown immune from the very moment you recruit him.

Sten also holds agroo much better then Alistair does.

And the bonus specialization, which is Champion ( logically ) only adds 2 willipower and 1 cunning, which don't matter for a warrior.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 mai 2010 - 03:58 .

[Willowhisper]

Rhys Cordelle wrote...

Yeah but you can understand why she does that, surely? She had to give up her son, and was never able to live a normal life, because it's what the chantry and the circle expected of her. She has been conditioned to believe that you must fulfill your duty and put all other things aside.

She does eventually apologise for what she says too.

Actually, you're absolutely right Rhys.  It does make sense when you look at her background.  And I completely forgot about her apology....my bad. :innocent:  She really is kinda cool.  Ok.....I amend my least favorite choice to Zevran, for Origins at least.  I don't really find any redeeming value in him.  In Awakenings I tend to agree with the majority, Ohgren is just out of control.

[Axekix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You speak as if Alistair doesn't need a lot of Strength, he does need it to use the highend armors.Alistair only can become great in the very endgame, but for the rest of the game Sten is better, since he can and will get the ability to wear better armor faster, becomes knockdown immune from the very moment you recruit him.

That's pretty subjective. You seem to be arguing more about the 2h spec vs S&S than the individual characters.

Have you tried actually gearing Alistair out or do you just leave him in his default scale gear?  You can get both his STR and DEX over 40 fairly easily if you desire, (or build his str to the mid 30s and use belts/rings to supplement his str to equip the higher lvl armor if you prefer). 

Also you can do RTO whenever you choose and will get level appropriate items (Cailan's set happens to be one of the best tank sets in the default game).  He really starts to come into his own ~ lvl 10, which is when most specs start to shine tbh, including 2h (sunder armor/2h sweep).

Still Sten is unquestionably the weakest NPC character due to his single spec and racial handicaps.  Ohgren is a better 2h warrior by default.  The fact that you can still do well with him should be a testament to how much the player's input factors in.  If you can get by, despite his weaknesses, there's really no reason you should be struggling with Shale or Alistair.

Sten also holds agroo much better then Alistair does.

How so? With taunt aggro isn't an issue for anyone.

Modifié par Axekix, 25 mai 2010 - 04:17 .

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...

What would you have her do?  Turn herself in to them?  Despite having done nothing wrong and being no threat to anyone?

No, but do you think she would hesitate to do the same to someone else?  As I said, what I fault her for is hypocrisy.

Of course, considering that she shows up in Awakening even if you killed her in Origins, at that point we really should have a Turn Wynne Over to the Templars side quest.

She sees the potential in the Warden that she doesn't have.  The Warden (after the campaign) is fairly worldly and a national hero, of course his/her voice would carry a lot of weight for the Circle.  And if I recall, her hope was that the Circle wouldn't have to remain the oppressive 'prison' it is now.
I don't see either of those as being reasons to hate  Wynne.

I don't recall her saying any such thing, and my elf mage took a certain perverse delight in sparring with her over the Circle.  She is so Chantry-steeped that I think she has a bit of Stockholm syndrome.  All of the senior Circle mages collaborate in perpetuating an oppressive system, and Wynne and Iriving are no different.  It doesn't matter if the Tower has more autonomy because the Circle mages are as bad as the templars, as you see if you tell Irving about Jowan and Lily in the mage origin.

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

No, but do you think she would hesitate to do the same to someone else?  As I said, what I fault her for is hypocrisy.

I'm not sure why you think she would.  I mean Morrigan is an apostate who Wynne absolutely loathes and she doesn't turn her in.  Her own association with the spirit makes her question her views on what abominations are exactly.  I think it's jumping to conclusions to make that assumption.

Of course, considering that she shows up in Awakening even if you killed her in Origins, at that point we really should have a Turn Wynne Over to the Templars side quest.

She sees the potential in the Warden that she doesn't have.  The Warden (after the campaign) is fairly worldly and a national hero, of course his/her voice would carry a lot of weight for the Circle.  And if I recall, her hope was that the Circle wouldn't have to remain the oppressive 'prison' it is now.
I don't see either of those as being reasons to hate  Wynne.

I don't recall her saying any such thing, and my elf mage took a certain perverse delight in sparring with her over the Circle.  She is so Chantry-steeped that I think she has a bit of Stockholm syndrome. 

Taken from my elf mage save:

Modifié par Axekix, 25 mai 2010 - 04:42 .

[Kacynski]

I'd have to say my least favourite character is Morrigan. In my first playthrough I romanced her and this gave me allready a bitter taste. I tended to use Wynne as my mage in the next playthroughs, but not being very fond of her as well (she's full of self - rightousness, just see the animations she has when you confront her in the circle or at her plot random encounter), I made a playthrough where I wanted to specifically stick with Morrigan. Now I hate her.

I really came to the conclusion she is just plain stupid. And the fact you almost never get the chance to argue with her about decisions she disagree's with is so embarassing. Like if you decide to help Redcliffe village, she disapproves without giving you the chance to say something. You help the girl, she dissaproves beforehand and even you get out a nice sword, you can't show her and say: "See, what we get of this?"

Or, if you let her go to the fade for Connor's demon, she disapproves because "you didn't even ask me" - where the hell she gives me the option to ask her? (I know this disapproval does not occur if her approval rating is already high enough).

And then on the other hand she can be so easily sweettalked in the camp. Go travel with her, loose 15 approval and then *poof* at the camp you can butter her up so easily, even without giving her presents.

But the one thing, that bring her really on my most hated number one spot was the comment she's giving after the shriek attack at the camp, happened as a Dalish elf. I just faced my former lover ghoulified and gave him a quick merciful death, and what says the swamp-witch? "What they will send next? Darkspawn Tax-Collectors?" After that, I hated her.



I do also agree with everybody that feels Oghren is ooc in Awakenings. I really liked the line at the city gates when he says something like "You showed me how to be a worthy warrior" - and then you meet him again as a not-so-comic drunk dwarf again in Awakening.

[Costin_Razvan]

That's pretty subjective. You seem to be arguing more about the 2h spec vs S&S than the individual characters.

And the two main characters in the game who are a S&S and a 2h are Sten and Alistair. You get Oghren very late in game, and while he is undoubtedly the best tank in the game, ( given his spec and racial bonus )

Have you tried actually gearing Alistair out or do you just leave him in his default scale gear?

I get him in Chainmail Armor, switch him to Templar armor at the Circle, later on blood dragon, and then finally Grey Warden Runic Armor ( mod ). So yes, I do gear him out. As I have stated I try and gear out all my characters equally, not having a preference for one or the other.

Still Sten is unquestionably the weakest NPC character due to his single spec and racial handicaps.

Weaker 2h then Oghren, yes ( though he has his Great Sword to compensate for that ). Weaker then Alistair? No.



Weaker then Dog and Shale. hell no.



Remember that both Shale and Dog also have no racial bonus, that neither of those two have specialization. Their lack of rings/trinket/belt isn't made up in their special abilities or items.

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

No, but do you think she would hesitate to do the same to someone else?  As I said, what I fault her for is hypocrisy.

I'm not sure why you think she would.  I mean Morrigan is an apostate who Wynne absolutely loathes and she doesn't turn her in.  Her own association with the spirit makes her question her views on what abominations are exactly.  I think it's jumping to conclusions to make that assumption.

Morrigan is not an abomination, and probably would have a thing or two to say if she found out about Wynne's Fade fairy.  My point is that Wynne is very good at coming up with rationalizations about her own status, while still holding forth as though she toes the Chantry's line and wants everyone else to do the same.

That conversation you posted does make sense in the context, because you have to have gotten her approval high enough that she believes you're as rah-rah Circle as she is.  Suffice to say none of my mages ever have. 

[Avilia]

Kacynski wrote...

Or, if you let her go to the fade for Connor's demon, she disapproves because "you didn't even ask me" - where the hell she gives me the option to ask her? (I know this disapproval does not occur if her approval rating is already high enough).

You can start a conversation with her while you're in the Castle and ask for her opinion about possession (I think tha'ts the choce) - she'll then go in happily with no argument :-)

Just discovered that myself last run through.

[Axekix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And the two main characters in the game who are a S&S and a 2h are Sten and Alistair. You get Oghren very late in game, and while he is undoubtedly the best tank in the game, ( given his spec and racial bonus )

That's up to the player.  You can do Orzimar as your first contract if you choose.

Weaker 2h then Oghren, yes ( though he has his Great Sword to compensate for that ). Weaker then Alistair? No.

Weaker then Dog and Shale. hell no.

Wait... you have Sten using Asala?  That's not even a good 2h weapon.  And yes, he is weaker than Alistair overall for the reasons already mentioned, and doesn't have nearly the same potential as Shale. 

Remember that both Shale and Dog also have no racial bonus, that neither of those two have specialization. Their lack of rings/trinket/belt isn't made up in their special abilities or items.

Dog perhaps. Shale no.  Shale's abilities are extremely powerful and bypass armor depending on the crystal type.  With a brilliant crystal set she can surpass any other NPC's single target damage output.  Also both of them come with grab/overwhelm immunity which none of the human NPCs have.

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

Morrigan is not an abomination, and probably would have a thing or two to say if she found out about Wynne's Fade fairy.  My point is that Wynne is very good at coming up with rationalizations about her own status, while still holding forth as though she toes the Chantry's line and wants everyone else to do the same.

Well the abominations you face in game are certainly a threat, and pretty much everyone who has bothered toying with blood magic has had it end very badly (minus Morrigan... so far).  So her support of the Chantry's way is understandable. 

She isn't really an abomination either, at least not by standard definitions.  She's joined with a spirit but not possessed.  She still has her own free will, and is using her abilities to help save the world rather than a cause harm.  I guess I don't see the problem with that stance.

That conversation you posted does make sense in the context, because you have to have gotten her approval high enough that she believes you're as rah-rah Circle as she is.  Suffice to say none of my mages ever have. 

Maybe you should give it a try!  She's got some interesting insights once you really get to know her

Modifié par Axekix, 25 mai 2010 - 06:06 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Good luck doing Orzammar first on Nightmare. Just have fun with that.

Wait... you have Sten using Asala? That's not even a good 2h weapon.

I use Dance of Death from Grey Warden Runic Armor for him in end game. In mid game I use Asala with Improved Atmosphere ( which makes it far better )

And yes, he is weaker than Alistair overall for the reasons already mentioned, and doesn't have nearly the same potential as Shale.

Weaker then him in the endgame. Yes. Far superior then him given that Sten can easily access his core abilities, gain the ability to use superior armor faster. I treat Alistair as a well rounded fighter who only can become great very late on, like just after the Landsmeet.

With a brilliant crystal set she can surpass any other NPC's single target damage output.

What good is having vastly superior damage on a few abilities, when others have more abilities and can deal a stream of slightly slower but steady damage?

It is what made Fury Warriors Superior to Arms Warriors in World of Warcraft PVE. While the Arms warriors do deliver far more damage on single blows, they also deliver less damage overall. Same goes for Shale vs Sten. Since Sten has more abilities then Shale. ( Mighty Blow, Sweep, Critical Strike )

( 'Tis why Zevran is the best melee damage dealer btw )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 mai 2010 - 05:19 .

[keesio74]

Hmmm.. a lot of hate for Velanna. But I liked her. Anders bugged me with his wisecracking... he was like another Alistair but goofier. But for my least favorite character, no question it is Shale. Every other character had something about them I liked. But Shale... there was nothing.



As for people who are calling Wynne and Leliana too religious... neither are THAT religious. Wynne respects the Chantry but is not a devout believer. Leliana is more devout and even she had her doubts.

[Axekix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Good luck doing Orzammar first on Nightmare. Just have fun with that.

Actually I just did on my elf rogue

I use Dance of Death from Grey Warden Runic Armor for him in end game. In mid game I use Asala with Improved Atmosphere ( which makes it far better )

Ooh you're using IA?  IA changes a lot of (imo making things easier) so it skews the discussion a bit. I don't know all of the gear listed in IA, but Shale's stats scale well against the default items in DAO.

What good is having vastly superior damage on a few abilities, when others have more abilities and can deal a stream of slightly slower but steady damage?

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Shale only has a few skills per stance but you do realize Shale can change stances in combat yes?

( 'Tis why Zevran is the best melee damage dealer btw )

Actually the backstab mechanic and dex (or cunning) scaling with dagger damage are the things that make DW rogues so effective, not the DW special attacks.  With Momentum, GM runes and poisons going  using specials actually lowers your damage.

Modifié par Axekix, 25 mai 2010 - 05:29 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Leliana is more a believer of the Maker then a devout sister of the Chantry. In fact from what she tells you, she doesn't like the people in the Chantry.

 Actually I just did on my elf rogue  

PC Rogues are overpowered.... ( I believe someone soloed the whole game on Nightmare with just a rogue? )

 IA changes a lot of (imo making things easier) so it skews the discussion a bit.  

IA also increases difficulty besides adding new items.

 I'm not sure what you mean here.  Shale only has a few skills per stance but you do realize Shale can change stances in combat yes?

Takes precious seconds in a fight to do so. And with almost every major battle having a knockdown, you can almost always get intrerupted while you are casting her abilities. The problem with Shale is that she looses A LOT of her DPS power in a fight where she will most likely get a knockdown every once in a while.

That is why I consider Shale and Alistair so weak as they are. Because their DPS power comes from channeled abilities that take a few seconds to complete. In Sten and Oghren's case, they also have channeled abilities ( Sunder arms and armor ) but their main damage source comes from Mighty Blow and Critical Strike, along with Sweeping Strike and Pummel Strike. ( for disabling their foes ). 

P.S. A templars greatest power is that AOE stun at the end of the tree. It's just insane.

 Actually the backstab mechanic and dex (or cunning) scaling with dagger damage are the things that make DW rogues so effective, not the DW special attacks.

Yet Zevran relies on quick strikes, rather then massive blows like Shale does. That was the point of it all.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 mai 2010 - 05:48 .

[Axekix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

PC Rogues are overpowered.... ( I believe someone soloed the whole game on Nightmare with just a rogue? )

DA has been done solo on Nightmare with every class actually, many times over by now.

IA also increases difficulty
besides adding new items.

That wasn't really my experience when I tried it, unless things have changed since then.

Takes precious seconds in a fight to do so. And with almost every major battle having a knockdown, you can almost always get intrerupted while you are casting her abilities. The problem with Shale is that she looses A LOT of her DPS power in a fight where she will most likely get a knockdown every once in a while.

That applies to every class except 2h warriors.  Rogues are the most susceptible to CC actually.  However Shale comes with immunity to the worst form of CC in the game (overwhelm and grab) so it more than offsets an occasional knockdown, and tbh I don't even recall the last time I saw Shale knocked down.  It's really not as much of an issue as you make it out to be.

Holy smite is alright, but I prefer Superiority+War Cry, especially since I run Rally on Alistair and any other warrior I have in party.

Yet Zevran relies on quick strikes, rather then massive blows like Shale does. That was the point of it all.

I guess I don't follow, what is that supposed to prove exactly?  Shale's massive attacks still bypass armor, and come with relatively short CDs.  She is very competitive in DPS as far as vanilla DAO goes.

Modifié par Axekix, 25 mai 2010 - 06:01 .

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...
Maybe you should give it a try!  She's got some interesting insights once you really get to know her

Oh, my opinion is not formed of not having spent significant time with her.  My first few playthroughs I was like most people, I suppose- took the grandmotherly healer everywhere, listened to her sermons.  Somewhere along the way I just thought "you know, granny, you suck."  And it's been all downhil since then. 

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

Axekix wrote...
Maybe you should give it a try!  She's got some interesting insights once you really get to know her

Oh, my opinion is not formed of not having spent significant time with her.  My first few playthroughs I was like most people, I suppose- took the grandmotherly healer everywhere, listened to her sermons.  Somewhere along the way I just thought "you know, granny, you suck."  And it's been all downhil since then. 

...


It was the line at the end of RTO wasn't it.

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Axekix wrote...
Maybe you should give it a try!  She's got some interesting insights once you really get to know her

Oh, my opinion is not formed of not having spent significant time with her.  My first few playthroughs I was like most people, I suppose- took the grandmotherly healer everywhere, listened to her sermons.  Somewhere along the way I just thought "you know, granny, you suck."  And it's been all downhil since then. 

...


It was the line at the end of RTO wasn't it.

Funny story.  I had already been parking Wynne in camp for a few characters before RtO came out.  That came out while I was playing my "canon" HNF character, who at least had tried to be polite with Wynne (I figure nobles would do that, much as it kills me).  Of course, I let Alistair talk me into taking Wynne to RtO.  On the way there we got the Tegrin event and while I was fiddling around, I accidentally clicked on Wynne and it prompted the "you should really give Alistair up for the good of mankind" sermon.  So we get to RtO and then.... granny goes cougar on him herself.  Marvelous!

This was also the first PC where I didn't get Shale's approval high enough that she went into the Deep Roads.  Here my HNF is made consort and chancellor, life is grand, she goes up to Wynne and finds out Alistair has appointed her court mage!!!!!!  I don't know who sputtered more loudly, me or my PC  I didn't even know Wynne would do that..  Oh, good times.  There's always Zevran, in case she actually makes it back from Cumberland.

Moral of the story:  Never let Alistair talk you into anything.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 mai 2010 - 06:10 .

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

Funny story.  I had already been parking Wynne in camp for a few characters before RtO came out.  That came out while I was playing my "canon" HNF character, who at least had tried to be polite with Wynne (I figure nobles would do that, much as it kills me).  Of course, I let Alistair talk me into taking Wynne to RtO.  On the way there we got the Tegrin event and while I was fiddling around, I accidentally clicked on Wynne and it prompted the "you should really give Alistair up for the good of mankind" sermon.  So we get to RtO and then.... granny goes cougar on him herself.  Marvelous!

This was also the first PC where I didn't get Shale's approval high enough that she went into the Deep Roads.  Here my HNF is made consort and chancellor, life is grand, she goes up to Wynne and finds out Alistair has appointed her court mage!!!!!!  I don't know who sputtered more loudly, me or my PC  I didn't even know Wynne would do that..  Oh, good times.  There's always Zevran, in case she actually makes it back from Cumberland.

Moral of the story:  Never let Alistair talk you into anything.

Oh that goes without saying doesn't it?  Just look at how Darkspawn Chronicles turned out.







Cougar Wynne is pretty awesome though!  At least to me... though I do sort of dig older women.  It's so weird to see people hate Wynne and Leliana because they just seem sooo likeable to me.   TBH I don't really hate any of the original DA cast.

Modifié par Axekix, 25 mai 2010 - 06:18 .

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...

Cougar Wynne is pretty awesome though!  At least to me... though I do sort of dig older women.  It's so weird to see people hate Wynne and Leliana because they just seem sooo likeable to me.   TBH I don't really hate any of the original DA cast.

Leliana took the same progression.  My staple party on my first few playthroughs was Alistair, Leliana and Wynne.  One day I heard Leliana talk about shoes and I wanted to smash the monitor.

Meanwhile, Zevran and Morrigan only grew on me after a rough start, and Alistair has held steady as my favorite character.

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

Leliana took the same progression.  My staple party on my first few playthroughs was Alistair, Leliana and Wynne.  One day I heard Leliana talk about shoes and I wanted to smash the monitor.

Meanwhile, Zevran and Morrigan only grew on me after a rough start, and Alistair has held steady as my favorite character.

Not a shoe person then? Hehe.

I totally get the Morrigan thing, cause she's awesome... but Alistair does some pretty hypocritical things himself (lol Redcliffe hissy fit) and tends to side with Leli/Wynne on a lot of issues... how can he be your fav when you hate them? I'm genuinely curious.

[Costin_Razvan]

DA has been done solo on Nightmare with every class actually, many times over by now.

And that is why Vanilla Difficulty is crap...seriously. Just takes the right skill/potions etc. and you can solo it. The endgame becomes quite a walk in the park... ( because Nightmare just gives mobs more health, nothing more in Vanilla DA: O )

 That wasn't really my experience when I tried it, unless things have changed since then.

He changed it so normal mobs do more damage and use talents far more often then they do in vanilla but removed the bonus health they get on harder difficulty settings. Elites and Bosses also have this change + the increased Health Thing.

Despite the Items you have in IA, bosses are damned difficult, compared to Vanilla.

I won't try and argue anymore. Obviously we both have different gameplay experiences, since I haven't played in Vanilla DA:O for quite a while now.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 25 mai 2010 - 06:53 .

[Addai]

Axekix wrote...

Not a shoe person then? Hehe.

I totally get the Morrigan thing, cause she's awesome... but Alistair does some pretty hypocritical things himself (lol Redcliffe hissy fit) and tends to side with Leli/Wynne on a lot of issues... how can he be your fav when you hate them? I'm genuinely curious.

Oh I know Alistair is a big doofus sometimes.

It's a personality thing.  Also it took me a couple playthroughs before I finished Leli's personal quest, and when I first started hearing her talk about being a bard, I did a headspin.  She's got that syrupy smile and in her cooing voice is talking about seduction and torture, and I'm looking at the screen thinking "wha?"  I just find her creepy, in addition to being annoying.  And similarly with Wynne.  I really think the writer is dastardly.  She's written these characters who on the surface are like warm pillows and hot chocolate, but when I actually listened to some of the things they say, I found myself thinking, "you know, that's pretty f'ed up."

I also think we weren't meant to play the game a dozen times or two.  The things that sort of annoy you on the first playthroughs begin to really grate after multiple runs.  Hence, shoes --> monitor smashing.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 mai 2010 - 06:49 .

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

Axekix wrote...

Not a shoe person then? Hehe.

I totally get the Morrigan thing, cause she's awesome... but Alistair does some pretty hypocritical things himself (lol Redcliffe hissy fit) and tends to side with Leli/Wynne on a lot of issues... how can he be your fav when you hate them? I'm genuinely curious.

Oh I know Alistair is a big doofus sometimes.

It's a personality thing.  Also it took me a couple playthroughs before I finished Leli's personal quest, and when I first started hearing her talk about being a bard, I did a headspin.  She's got that syrupy smile and in her cooing voice is talking about seduction and torture, and I'm looking at the screen thinking "wha?"  I just find her creepy, in addition to being annoying.  And similarly with Wynne.  I really think the writer is dastardly.  She's written these characters who on the surface are like warm pillows and hot chocolate, but when I actually listened to some of the things they say, I found myself thinking, "you know, that's pretty f'ed up."

I also think we weren't meant to play the game a dozen times or two.  The things that sort of annoy you on the first playthroughs begin to really grate after multiple runs.  Hence, shoes --> monitor smashing.

Ah I see.  Haha, fair enough!