30 réponses à ce sujet

[Mykel54]

I´ve recently beaten the game on hardcore as a Sentinel (my first playthrougth was on veteran as soldier) and i found it much more rewarding that at veteran level. With that i mean that i actually got killed several times and the enemies were pretty challenging but not the point of frustration.
As a sentinel i had warp/overload so i could most of the time get rid of the extra defenses of hardcore without much complication. I wanted to start a vanguard now, but i am wondering if i should go directly to Hardcore or play in veteran instead. I tested a bit on the earlier levels with both difficulties, and what annoyed me a little is how biotics seems so useless in hardcore and above.
I plan to have a vanguard without Reave (otherwise this would not be much problem) and with shockwave/pull maxed, and i am unsure if hardcore is a good difficulty level for a not so polished build. What i mean is that the build i would like to use is not necessarily the most efficient (not reave for example) so i am worried that hardcore as a vanguard may be actually frustrating plus making the biotic powers of the class pretty useless.
I would love to hear some feedback of people who have played a vanguard on normal/veteran and then moved to hardcore/insanity, to explain what differences they found and which difficulty they liked more.

[lazuli]

If you bring the right squadmates, your biotics will be fine.



Miranda + _____



The second member depends on the mission. If fighting Blue Suns or Geth, take Garrus or Kasumi. If fighting Collectors, take Thane. If fighting Eclipse, Thane or Garrus should work just fine. Take Thane for the Blood Pack as well. And when facing lots of Husks, consider bringing Grunt or Samara.

[Mykel54]

I see, i suppose that with the proper squadmates for each mission i could manage. I´ve also noticed that enemies with protection stay on place, instead of go flying, when you charge them. I found this good for the most part and i liked it. As i said what worries me most is being unable to use pull field plus warp to explode it, or shockwave to kill husks (with the sentinel i dealed with husks with powers for the most part).

I guess what i want to do with the vanguard is to play a bit with the biotics (like a sort of adept) and not only focus on charging constantly. I´ve seen several videos of people playing vanguards on hardcore/insanity and all they focus is on charging constantly plus using some powers like Reave.
I don´t like much that playstyle, and i am not sure if the vanguard can do on hardcore something else other than that. I don´t know if any of you played a vanguard back in ME1, that is more or less the kind of gameplay i was looking for.

Modifié par Mykel54, 23 mai 2010 - 09:27 .

[deaddecoy]

Meh, I started off on insanity. At the early levels, vanguard is a pain. But once you max out charge and you have a decent mastery over that skill, the game starts to get easier.



A few things to make insanity even easier:

- Use the DLC eviscerator shotgun. It's kinda overpowered, considering you can start out with it and has a competitive damage rate versus the claymore

- A Miranda/Zaeed team works out pretty well, especially if you do Zaeeds loyalty quest and max out firebomb . While the firebomb can only do armor/unshielded, its splash is pretty wide and it strips all defenses.



Right now my second vangaurd is making better time through levels than my infiltrator because of charge.

[lazuli]

Mykel54 wrote...


I guess what i want to do with the vanguard is to play a bit with the biotics (like a sort of adept) and not only focus on charging constantly. I´ve seen several videos of people playing vanguards on hardcore/insanity and all they focus is on charging constantly plus using some powers like Reave.
I don´t like much that playstyle, and i am not sure if the vanguard can do on hardcore something else other than that. I don´t know if any of you played a vanguard back in ME1, that is more or less the kind of gameplay i was looking for.

I played ME1 Vanguard and loved it.  I kind of despise the ME2 Vanguard though, at least the Charge focused ones.  Charge is too bugged for my taste.  So I understand why you'd want to play it a different way- more of an Adept with better firepower as opposed to a close combat specialist. 

[Omicrone]

Close combat all the way. That's where the vanguard shines. For any other role that you think the vanguard will do well, there is a more efficient class out there. Biotics - adept. Ranged - infiltrator/soldier, etc etc.

[lazuli]

Omicrone wrote...

Close combat all the way. That's where the vanguard shines. For any other role that you think the vanguard will do well, there is a more efficient class out there. Biotics - adept. Ranged - infiltrator/soldier, etc etc.

No argument here, but I have no interest in playing a Vanguard that way.  Charge wasn't a terribly well thought out or executed power.  Triggering additional enemy spawns by charging gets frustrating.  Using up your recharge without actually charging is also aggravating.  It's a mess.

Modifié par lazuli, 23 mai 2010 - 11:31 .

[Omicrone]

Your playstyle is your own and you should stick to what you enjoy most. I can guarantee you, though, that most of the people that played ME1 vanguard think that ME2 vanguard is way more exciting precisely due to charge. It is a high risk, high reward power. Most players I know wouldn't mind reloading if something goes wrong cause it feels even better if they manage to pull an impossible stunt off the 2nd time. Up to you.

[deaddecoy]

lazuli wrote...

No argument here, but I have no interest in playing a Vanguard that way.  Charge wasn't a terribly well thought out or executed power.  Triggering additional enemy spawns by charging gets frustrating.  Using up your recharge without actually charging is also aggravating.  It's a mess.

That's funny, because if you do it right, charge actually skips enemy spawns. The trick is not to jump into a group > 3 and make sure there's cover around. It also helps if I squadmate has a power available that can stun tight situations. In recruiting thane, I chain-charged from the beginning to the end of a level, and noticed some of the respawns didn't trigger.

[lazuli]

deaddecoy wrote...

That's funny, because if you do it right, charge actually skips enemy spawns. The trick is not to jump into a group > 3 and make sure there's cover around. It also helps if I squadmate has a power available that can stun tight situations. In recruiting thane, I chain-charged from the beginning to the end of a level, and noticed some of the respawns didn't trigger.

In this case, doing it "right" probably requires a significant amount of knowledge about the level and enemy placement beforehand, or a fair amount of reloading.  It just seems like a poorly designed skill when you take down a group of enemies from afar save one, then charge in, thinking you're safe, only to be overwhelmed by three or four enemies popping out of a secret door or something. 

I like the idea of rushing forward to instantly take on an enemy at close range.  It's a cool concept.  I don't know if I like that kind of idea in Mass Effect though, not with enemy spawns the way they are.

[deaddecoy]

It just seems like a poorly designed skill when you take down a group of enemies from afar save one, then charge in, thinking you're safe, only to be overwhelmed by three or four enemies popping out of a secret door or something.

There are a few tricks to avoiding that. One is to wait for the enemy to fill out the battlefield and spread out. Another is to not use charge to finish off the last guy. Charge does have a margin of error though, in that it recharges your shields. It gets pretty fun when you're in the red and just charging to keep your shields up until you find cover. Gotta admit, decent knowledge of the map layout and respawn triggers helps a lot. My first vanguard incurred a lot of respawns until about halfway through. For my second vanguard, insanity=easy mode now.

[deaddecoy]

Despite it's name, charge is not really about charging the enemy. It's more about flanking them so you can setup some deadly crossfire with your squaddies.

[u21]

Omicrone wrote...

,,,I can guarantee you, though, that most of the people that played ME1 vanguard think that ME2 vanguard is way more exciting precisely due to charge. It is a high risk, high reward power...

This x:).

[ryoldschool]

People should not say insanity now equals easy mode with vanguard. Its a lot risker to play than an adept even if you know the level. Its a lot of fun, but its tricky.

[FFTARoxorz05]

Usually there's at least one retard enemy that'll move way off by himself  to where you can kill it and hide behind cover right away, and he should be your charge target. Two by themselves to where you can immediately eliminate one is also a good time to charge. Honestly though, the first situation happens so often that it really makes me think vanguard was the default class.

Modifié par FFTARoxorz05, 24 mai 2010 - 05:59 .

[lazuli]

FFTARoxorz05 wrote...

Usually there's at least one retard enemy that'll move way off by himself  to where you can kill it and hide behind cover right away, and he should be your charge target. Two by themselves to where you can immediately eliminate one is also a good time to charge. Honestly though, the first situation happens so often that it really makes me think vanguard was the default class.

And Charge bugs happen so frequently that it really makes me think Vanguard wasn't sufficiently playtested.

[ekwhite]

ryoldschool wrote...

People should not say insanity now equals easy mode with vanguard. Its a lot risker to play than an adept even if you know the level. Its a lot of fun, but its tricky.

I agree - insanity with an adept is easier to me than insanity with a vanguard.  There are a few missions where the vanguard has it easier, but for the most part, the adept is much easier.  When the vanguard clicks, though, it is a ton of fun.

[JaegerBane]

Omicrone wrote...

Your playstyle is your own and you should stick to what you enjoy most. I can guarantee you, though, that most of the people that played ME1 vanguard think that ME2 vanguard is way more exciting precisely due to charge. It is a high risk, high reward power. Most players I know wouldn't mind reloading if something goes wrong cause it feels even better if they manage to pull an impossible stunt off the 2nd time. Up to you.

While the ME2 Vanguard is a pretty exciting class, I think what he's getting at is that there isn't any classes that offer the same kind of play that the ME1 class offered. You can't really play a shooty/biotic character unless you're willing to mod the Adept.

To be honest, I'm not convinced the new streamlined system works all that well with the combo classes. While it's brilliant on the specialists (the Adept is a seriously beefed up class  compared to ME1 and both the Soldier and Engineer are waaaay better than their ME1 counterparts) the combo classes are just plain weird.

The Sentinel has a nonsensical selection of skills (presumably intended purely for balance - techs for crowd control and biotics for damage, when they should really be the other way round), the Vanguard basically plays like a berzerker with badly meshed biotics (why does a Vanguard need shockwave? why not Warp or Throw?), and the infiltrator, supposedly the stealthy tech-savvy killer, comes loaded with the oh-so-subtle ability to hurl fireballs.

[mcsupersport]

IF you want to play a Biotic non-charging Vanguard, then play adept. What is the point of playing a non-charge Vanguard when the skills and weapons are all available(except Claymore, but then it is not really useful for non-chargers anyway), and you get more biotics with an adept. That is like playing a soldier and only using powers in the game, you are missing out on the strongest and the unique play of the class.



At higher levels shockwave has very limited use, and pull is only good after you strip the defenses when everyone has in Hardcore and Insanity. Yes you can use them, but they are only after uses, which can better be used by squaddies leaving you to charge and kill up close. Charge is bugged, but hey, it is a blast once you figure out how to use. I am banging my head against an Insanity NG+ Vanguard right now(actually had to take a break, headache) but when it works man is it awsome. Vanguard will also make your play better, because you have to understand the levels so much better to win, unlike soldiers and Adepts.

[JaegerBane]

mcsupersport wrote...

IF you want to play a Biotic non-charging Vanguard, then play adept. What is the point of playing a non-charge Vanguard when the skills and weapons are all available(except Claymore, but then it is not really useful for non-chargers anyway), and you get more biotics with an adept. That is like playing a soldier and only using powers in the game, you are missing out on the strongest and the unique play of the class.

Just read the point again, Supersport. No-one is asking for the ability to play a Vanguard like an adept. The Adept has no real combat capabilities. Trying to play the class like a combat class just isn't feasible before the Collector ship.

All we're asking is the ability to play a class - any class, doesn't have to be specifically named 'vanguard' - in the kind of way the ME1 Vanguard offered. I can (and do) play this with an Adept, but the class needs some heavy modding for it to play like this (two bonus powers, more guns).

[Mykel54]

Thanks all for the feedback^_^
Just to clear this point, i didn´t say that i don´t like charging, or how the vanguard works in ME2. In fact i quite like it, the only thing i miss is to being able to play a bit with the biotics on hardcore/insanity, that is the reason i played veteran for a while and noticed big differences.

Anyway in the end i have resolved to modding to solve my problem, as veteran is just too easy (plus unrealistic imho with so many enemies without any defense but a health bar) and i enjoy quite more the challenge of hardcore. What i did is to install this mod: http://social.biowar...ect/2071/#files

What it does is to allow you to use biotics (like throw, pull, shokwave etc.) no matter what the enemies defenses are. For example you can insta kill husks with pull or shockwave, or you can use pull field to lift whole groups of protected enemies. I used pull on the praetorian on horizon and then warp and it caused a warp explosion, but the praetorian can´t be lifted or throwed around with biotics.

This change makes the game a bit easier, specially if you exploit it and use powers on enemies you couldn´t before (like a armored krogan) but overall i am enjoying the game a lot more this way, why? because now biotics are now no longer meaningless, i don´t need to carry along with me miranda/thane and spam warp all day. I like it because now all my powers are useful and i feel more like my powers make the difference, and are worth their coldown (specially shockwave with 6 sec coldown). Be aware thought that the balance of the game is a bit changed and it may unbalanced, but definitely if you like using biotics other than warp/reave on the harder levels, i recommend giving it a try.

Modifié par Mykel54, 25 mai 2010 - 09:42 .

[Tarifa]

I like ME2 vanguard, best part of it is charging behind enemy line and stopping infinite respawns. But with every other class you'd have to slowly work your way through to get to the point where respawns stop.

My favorite shotgun was DLC Eviscerator, it does have lower damage per shot than Claymore but better overall dps. Thing is well aimed Eviscerator blast will 1-shot regular collectors even on insanity, if it's not dead then instantly following melee hit will finish your target. It's quite possible to kill 3 enemies without reloading, charge -> shoot 1st enemy (melee if not dead) -> turn around shoot and melee 2nd enemy -> charge -> shoot 3rd one and take cover to reload. I did playthrough the collector ship with claymore but reloaded it and took viper rifle instead just for fun to have something long range. It kinda felt slower pace and omg if you happen to miss claymore shot while having 3+ collectors on your back you are in trouble.

Charge rarely bugged out for me, usually it only happened on the collector floating platforms when trying to charge from cover. Work around what I found was simply stepping out from cover and then hitting charge.

But going going back to orginal post, I don't really see what's the point playing vanguard like gimped adept. Same thing would be Infiltaror using only incinerate and drain energy, which would be doable but just because you can? *shrug*

[JaegerBane]

Tarifa wrote...
But going going back to orginal post, I don't really see what's the point playing vanguard like gimped adept. Same thing would be Infiltaror using only incinerate and drain energy, which would be doable but just because you can? *shrug*

The point is that some of us don't want to play a one-trick pony for the whole game. That was the point behind the ME1 combo classes - to give you a chance to play with a bit of both. The Infiltrator and Sentinel still allow you to do this, to an extent - the vanguard doesn't.

[squigian]

Tali is a surprisingly helpful squadmate as a Vanguard. Use her combat drone to distract enemies and then charge in; the pink ball of fun will draw a significant amount of fire, allowing you more freedom of movement. Legion is even better, giving you excellent covering fire with the Widow in addition to providing distraction. What you generally want to do is disrupt the enemy, then charge in: large groups will shred you, otherwise. Also, get a feel for which enemies you can take out in one shotgun blast; any group of three of these or under is killable in one charge if adequate cover exists nearby.

[Gravbh]

I played the vanguard in ME1 because I liked the mix of biotic/combat. I was disappointed when I heard that the ME2 vanguard was going to be focused almost entirely on the shotgun. I tried to play a vanguard that didn't focus entirely on charge. I picked assault rifles for my bonus weapon and reave for my bonus power. It was ok, but it just felt like a gimped adept.



The fact that where you aim is actually where the bullets hit(big improvement over ME1), means any class you want can be "combat" oriented. As a former biotic focused vanguard from ME1, adept with an assault rifle is my preferred class in ME2.