112 réponses à ce sujet

[Spartas Husky]

Shooting back from where? the Codex said, the "scout flotilla" was believed to be the bulk of their forces.....



They stepped in because from what I read in the Codex, not due to rachni fears but due to the fact that turians got their blockade broken by an unknown race, nobody is better than the turians until then. And from the looks of it, carrier forces were deployed during the short conflict. So a war between the two would have given the terminus systems a main faction tor ally behind.



So on both accounts I...slightly disagree. Shanxi garrison was way to small to pose a threat. A blockade is fine, but shelling a defenseless planet is just.....over the top I duno.



I picture it this way.



I launch an AT4 at an enemy vehicle inside a town.



No argument there, but then I call in, Navy support, followed by Apache fire, followeed by a JADAM, followed by a tomahawk, followed by a AC130 flying over filling the ground with lead.....



While all the time I have only been receiving pistol fire at my position....I mean is just.....waste of resources most of it lol.



Blockade, sending envoys down, then trying to communicate while a cruiser was at top aiming down just in case would have wasted less resources, less time, less fuel, less....everything.



Turian hierarchy is just crazy in my opinion lol

[foolish replica]

"We fight, even when we know we cannot win and that's what the Turians weren't expecting."



that, and the entire second fleet pouring mass accelerator rounds into their asses.

[Kaiser Shepard]

foolish replica wrote...

"We fight, even when we know we cannot win and that's what the Turians weren't expecting."

that, and the entire second fleet pouring mass accelerator rounds into their asses.

"Is surrender not preferable to extinction?"

[Leftnt Sharpe]

gmartin40 wrote...

The Turians thought the humans were just another race, that when hit, would give up. But humanity is a race known not for giving up easily. It usually takes a HUGE hit for humanity to give up. WWII, the atomic bomb. Vietnam, mass deaths on both sides. Current war, unstable economy. We fight, even when we know we cannot win and that's what the Turians weren't expecting.

Pretty much this. The turians wanted to turn humanity into another client race, thankfully humanity had the Alliance and wasn't defenseless. Although if the Turians had really mobilised and sent in their large number of Dreadnoughts I'm not sure how long Humantiy would have lasted.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Leftnt Sharpe wrote...

gmartin40 wrote...

The Turians thought the humans were just another race, that when hit, would give up. But humanity is a race known not for giving up easily. It usually takes a HUGE hit for humanity to give up. WWII, the atomic bomb. Vietnam, mass deaths on both sides. Current war, unstable economy. We fight, even when we know we cannot win and that's what the Turians weren't expecting.

Pretty much this. The turians wanted to turn humanity into another client race, thankfully humanity had the Alliance and wasn't defenseless. Although if the Turians had really mobilised and sent in their large number of Dreadnoughts I'm not sure how long Humantiy would have lasted.

Thats not necessarily true, when shanxi surrendered to the turians they were still killing people. they were way to aggressive in the whole thing. I'm pretty sure they would have tried to commit a genocide against the humans if they had a chance then.

[jgordon11]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

If the danger was in a naive new species activating mass relays without knowing the consequences, why did the turians feel the need to completely wipe the scout ships out? Were they thinking they'd wipe out the immediate threat--those looking to open the relay--then hope for peaceful first contact upon seeking out where the scout ships came from? I suppose then their first mistake was that a scout ship got away to warn the Alliance.

Like I said before,  why the need to destroy the ships. Is too dangerous for them to in panic activate the relay by accident. They allowed a ship to escape, meaning their innitial idea of preventing relay activation would not have succeded.

Or they could have activated FTL and fled like the one ship who survived most likely did...  Which would have been smarter considering they could retreat to allied forces.  *see codex as to how space combat ends when fleet enters FTL*.  So no, your rationale for the preemptive stike is wrong.  The turians had better options, but were simply to convuluted to consider them.

Also seriously you support the Turians' logic?... Its like actually borderline retarded.

So to PREVENT a war with a possible hostile UNKNOWN alien species, you ATTACK an UNKNOWN species...
I'm no expert, but im pretty sure attacking an unknown species would result in war more likely than opening a gateway to a star cluster, which also could help the galaxy (new friendly aliens, new resources, new knowledge).

The Turians were unmatched militarily by any species, they were members of the council, and they simply believed in their superiority.  Only did they respect the humans when the 2nd fleet kick their ass and knocked them off their high horse.  Also you cant seriously morally impose laws on a people that do not know of your existence without communicating.  The turians screwed the pooch period.   They were cocky and weren't going to let this upstart race who knew nothing of them break one of their laws.

Curiosity shouldn't be punished by death.

[Zulu_DFA]

When Ashley Williams's Grand Dad pissed in his pants and cowered under his desk, Operations Chief Massani (while being suspended from duty over a nightclub brawl) grabbed the Governor's shuttle and five marines, and blasted into orbit. The Turians thought that it's all about surrender and sent in a frigate with their adrmiral on board, to negotiate. To their surprise, negotiations went quite unlike any other negotiations they had had in the previous 1000 years...



That's how Zaeed won the First Contact War.

[Pacifien]

Heh.

[Kaiser Shepard]

I would've done the same in the turians' position: as far as galactic politics go, nothing can be better in the long run than immediately putting a newcomer with potential in their place.



Of course, turns out it didn't work so well... but still.

[Asheer_Khan]

One of the key problems i have whit F. C War is stated timeline.

35 years from Shanxi till Sovieregin attack looks like little too thin time frame to fit all events.

During first minutes of ME Pressly says that his Grandfather fought in F. C War when he already look like grandpa himself.
Even Ashley says that her family was blackmailed over what her Grandfather General Williams do (aka surrender colony), and her father which enlisted AFTER war is already dead when she looks like 30 years old.
However Dr Chakwas looks old in off (whit all due respect for her) to be eyewitness of F. C War events (maybe she was +20 when everything started?).

That's why i think that in pre production haste Bioware lost about 30 or 40 additional years to made everything logical.

And outcome of F. C War i would say was rather draw than victory for any side since whole fight was break up before turn out in all out total war.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 23 mai 2010 - 10:51 .

[jgordon11]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I would've done the same in the turians' position: as far as galactic politics go, nothing can be better in the long run than immediately putting a newcomer with potential in their place.

Of course, turns out it didn't work so well... but still.

And what if newcomers are stronger than you and then declare war and destroy you (like what the rachni almost did).  Then you would've probably thought "Hey, i should probably get to know this person before shooting at him we could've been friends."   Yeah usually the most logical step is to at least be friendly at first to get to know your possible enemy because attacking an unknown foe is just plain stupid.

Modifié par jgordon11, 23 mai 2010 - 10:57 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

The humans were not at fault because they were not bound by any laws that some aliens imposed.



The humans were acting on their own impulses, since they were not bound by these laws that the Turians attacked them, it was their fault and their fault alone.

[Spartas Husky]

jgordon11 wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Pacifien









wrote...











If the danger was in a naive new species


activating



mass relays without knowing the consequences, why did the



turians feel


the need to completely wipe the scout ships out? Were


they
thinking


they'd wipe out the immediate threat--those looking to



open the


relay--then hope for peaceful first contact upon seeking


out
where the


scout ships came from? I suppose then their first 


mistake
was that a


scout ship got away to warn the Alliance.

Like



I said


before,  why the need to destroy the ships. Is too dangerous






for them to in panic activate the relay by accident. They allowed a






ship to escape, meaning their innitial idea of preventing relay


activation



would not have succeded

Or they could


have
activated


FTL and fled like the one ship who survived most


likely
did...  Which


would have been smarter  considering they could



retreat to allied


forces.  *see codex as to  how space combat ends


when
fleet enters FTL*. 


So no, your rationale  for the preemptive


stike
is wrong.  The turians


had better options, but were simply to


convuluted
to consider them.











Also seriously you support


the
Turians' logic?... Its like actually


borderline retarded.











So



to PREVENT a war with a possible hostile UNKNOWN alien


species, you



ATTACK an UNKNOWN species...





I'm no expert, but im pretty sure


attacking
an unknown species would result in


war more likely than


opening
a gateway to a star cluster, which also


could help the


galaxy
(new friendly aliens, new resources, new


knowledge).











The



Turians were unmatched militarily by any species,


they were members



of the council, and they simply believed in their


superiority.  


Only
did they respect the humans when the 2nd fleet kick


their ass 


and
knocked them off their high horse.  Also you


cant seriously 


morally impose
laws on a people that do not know of your


existence 


without
communicating.  The turians screwed the pooch


period.   They



were cocky and weren't going to let this upstart race who


knew 


nothing
of them break one of their laws.











Curiosity


shouldn't






be punished by death.

First of all chill
out, this is the internet and calling


 others retarded is a bit  
over the top.





Second I am speaking in  military thiking.





I
dont know if it was you on the other thread.


Military protocol  
does not think of things, doesn't care if your gona


cry,  doesn't 
care if is civilians, it places your security over the  others.





But 
in any military curiosity has 2 outcomes, your life


or the life of 
the one in front of you, and if you dont know what his  intentions  
are at first sight you shot first ask later, which is what  happended.





I 
however have stated you dont shoot again and again


for no reason,  
you try to establish a talk to explain your protocol and  why it 



needs to be followed.





If you dont agree that is fine, but  dont 
talk out of your ass and call me retarded, just state your point


and 
move on.





"Curiosity  shouldn't be punished by death" Now


since
your so damn sure of it, enlist, see how far that mentality takes


you[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]
and:  "Also  seriously you support shot first ask later logic?... Its
like


actually  borderline retarded."





Do me the favor, drive
to Fort  Jackson, or Fort Benning. You can go in an try to convince the
first


soldier that comes across about your point of view, I'll be
glad to give


you a ride to the hospital afterwards.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 23 mai 2010 - 11:52 .

[jgordon11]

I actually meant no insult to you. I in no way meant to call you retarded, just the turians whos rationale is at least flawed it was just poorly phrased and came off a bit too much like a personal attack. It was simply directed at the turians aiming to prevent another war with an unknown alien species by opening the relay by attacking an unknown species. I actually wrote the second part first before your post and was actually not even meant to be directed at you. I actually agree with your thinking for the most part, but i just don't think you can apply that kind of situation to the relay incident. If they were on the ground and faced with a possible enemy in a war zone id say go ahead, but if you applied that to unknown forces that could just result in friendly fire or civilian causualties. You do have to admit that the rules of engagement serve a purpose (no matter how limited) even if they do hamper a military units' ability to engage possible combatants. Just look at the current restrictions in Afganistan where fire support is used sparingly in a way to prevent civilian causualties. Just because you suspect someone doesn't mean you call an artillery strike on their positition especially in a town of civilians. You can't just go shooting everyone whos not on your side.

In fact im considering OCS.  And i do admit i really did come off a bit too harsh as i meant.

Modifié par jgordon11, 24 mai 2010 - 12:13 .

[C9316]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The humans were not at fault because they were not bound by any laws that some aliens imposed.

The humans were acting on their own impulses, since they were not bound by these laws that the Turians attacked them, it was their fault and their fault alone.

True but in my opinion when the humans discovered prothean ruins on Mars and the discovery of the mass relays they should've infered that there was a possibility that other species existed out there and that thier actions could effect others. So instead of just aggressively activating random relays the humans should've tried alerting their existance first.

[wizardryforever]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
If you want to be peacekeepers you need to live up to your name. They should of stopped that conflict from the beginning.

You mean like this?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I suppose my point is that names and titles can be deceiving.  Public perception of the turians as galactic police tends to turn a blind eye when they resort to police brutality.  The turians were cocky and overconfident, and they thought they could quickly and easily nip the new human threat in the bud.  Of course, it didn't work, and they got their feathers (figuratively) ruffled when they were evicted from Shanxi.  The council stepped in before it could really escalate into war, so the term First Contact War is a bit misleading, as is the belief that we "won" the war.  There wasn't a war, it was more like a skirmish.

[adam_grif]

Are you kidding? The Turians attacked for violations of council law, when the species in question had never even heard of the council, let alone know about their laws. First point of call should have been peaceful contact and asking them to please kindly stop opening relays willy nilly.

[Spartas Husky]

jgordon11 wrote...

 You do have to admit that the rules of engagement serve a purpose (no matter how limited) even if they do hamper a military units' ability to engage possible combatants.

And most you ask soldiers will tell you, rules of engagement are there just as a mean to promote a companies agenda. A real war is fought with no regard for the otherside.

If rules of engagements had been areound ww2, it most likely would have ment the defeat of allied forces...ont top oh hitler's stupidity.

jgordon11 wrote...
Just look at the current restrictions in Afganistan where fire support is used sparingly in a way to prevent civilian causualties.

Fire support is used only for larger engagements, this is from ship to ship, you have to talk in Navies terms.

navy fire salvos to ward off incoming vessels, but in space there is no way to track incoming projectiles moving at the speeds of which are said to be traveling the salvos of cruiser.

Is like comparing, a night fire engagement, you do not know what is coming at you until it hits you. Or the enemy is using tracers

jgordon11 wrote...
Just because you suspect someone doesn't mean you call an artillery strike on their positition especially in a town of civilians. You can't just go shooting everyone whos not on your side.

Like I have said multiple times, in the civie mind everything is grey, everything has 2 choices, everything has time, everything can be worked out.

The military knows that is dream talk. When it comes down to it, you have protocols, protocols are there to avoid mistakes, the prevent more mistakes than they create.

In the Turians case, any military I know has a protocol similar to it. If you have no intelligence, and you meet unknown assailants, you orders are "fire with extreme prejudice, your survival and return to base is the only thing that matters"

0-----------------------------------0
Now Afghanistan is a can of worms, when it comes down to numbers, ROE has been more of an obstacle than a tool, nevertheless that doesn't mean we should try.

ROE are there to protecting civilians is just another burden placed on soldiers,  ROE aren't there to preserve anyone but the weak minds of the people funding the war, and the companies profiting from it.

Because most you ask, ROE dont mean anything to them  when **** hits the fan...(and I say "them" because, I was just in simulations and I didn't care much for them),  those out there dont care about anything besides seeing their buddy to their left and right go back home.

Now aside from the rant. Let me clarify just in case.

I am not saying blast every civie in sight, my bros and sis, do check their targets, most do. And the military tries hard to develop weapons that are based around prescicion and accuracy.

But that doesn't mean that civies should have the audacity to hold soldiers over fire when they kill a civilian, my friends are there to keep you safe, not to keep your concience clean.

Now those soldiers that kill civilians repedeately should be punished severely, because they just dont care; but those that kill civies by accident should not be punished in the same way, just because civies back home might cry over it.

[Highdragonslayer]

The zerg swarm

[adam_grif]

Shandepared wrote...

Humanity was at fault. To be perfectly honest I don't think it was a wise move to activate the Charon relay in the first place. They had no idea how it functioned or where it lead to. What if a hostile alien entity was on the other side? Or what if it had just been Protheans on the other side, aliens with a 50,000 year tech advantage? Our civilization running into another that is so much older and more advanced would not be health for us. I'm agree with Stephen Hawking on this one that when two civilizations clash the result is always terrible for the technologically inferior one.

What we should have done was dismantled the Charon relay piece by piece, figured out how it worked, and then begun building our own system of relays linking to space we had already explored.

"It was the girl's fault for getting raped, she should have known not to leave her house."

I think you have a very warped understanding of the word "fault".

Modifié par adam_grif, 24 mai 2010 - 01:33 .

[adam_grif]

Ballocks it's stupid. They had no idea any alien species existed except for the extinct protheans. Especially since the relay-system had existed for tens of thousands of years, but nobody had bothered activating theirs.



It don't matter how you spin it, you're being an idiot here. You're saying that the person committing the aggressive move on the people who hadn't knowingly done anything wrong, without so much as letting them know what they've done first, aren't at fault. That is total BS. And now you're saying it served them right for... activating relays? How do you think every other race on the council got their seat? Do you think they all just hid in their system and studied their relays? They explored, using the relay system.



It's complete garbage trying to blame somebody for not avoiding dangers that they aren't aware of, and for failing to obey laws that they don't know exist from species they don't know exist.



But by all means, continue with your sickening fantasies where rapists aren't at fault for raping people, murders aren't at fault for murdering people, and genocide is the morally justified response for people disobeying laws they don't know exist.

[jgordon11]

Wait so you're saying its not wrong to activate the relays, but that humanity is at fault for using the relays in a way that put us in a position to make contact with aliens?...

Seriously? Thats like saying it was my fault for getting shot because i was standing where the bullet was fired.
"Guns don't kill people, People who stand in the way of bullets kill themselves"

Modifié par jgordon11, 24 mai 2010 - 01:55 .