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[soteria]

I'll add, as a minor note, that even if you wanted to wear the best armor in the game, you don't need 42 str to do it. The dragonbone versions of massive armor have killer fatigue penalties, and if you're just going for armor there's better gear with lower str requirements. Even in Awakening, Diligence + Evon's is great.

[beancounter501]

@Random70 - Good gameplay strategy tips, thanks. On your Leather setup I think your AR rating is 26, but yhea that is pretty good. Felon's Coat is pretty strong. Too bad it is the only one in the game. It will work if you are the only Rogue in the group or you are solo. It also assumes you are giving all your best gear to your Rogue.

Ha, I knew you would turn you nose up at con, but I still say Rogues are extremely fragile do to low health. 10 Con gives 50 health (which is a 30% increase of your base), you lose 5 points of attack, 10 points of defense and maybe one or two points of dmg per hit - assuming you go double dagger. A fair trade off. Even though I am suprised at my self for recommending that!

@Soteria - you actually must have read my mind cause in my latest respec test case of Leliana I raised her str to 30, used Harvest Festival Ring and Helm of Honnelath to get to 34 str and equiped Diligence. Gave Leliana a 22 cun, 20 con and the rest into dex. She specced as a Duelist - which is not a very impressive spec. I equiped Veshaile and Rose Thorns. Probably should have dropped Veshaille for another dagger. Her end stats were

Level 16
Health: 280 (yay 10 Con + Lifegiver) A Warrior Health level
AR: 34
Attk: 111
Def: 113

I also picked up Evasion and combat stealth 4. Sent Leliana in solo against the Deserted Building in Stealth. She did extremely good. She would sneak into the room and open with a Riposte, and then slug it out toe to by herself with the rest of the room. She got stunned, but her armor and health saved her. A few times she started to get in trouble, but I just turned on combat stealth to pull back. A very durable build. More then capable of doing in opening stealth attack and survive against in entire room.

She was able to solo the area right up until being chain Overwhelmed by the three Mabari dogs. She surivied one overwhelm, but the second one got her.

Stamina was tight. I may have to try Random70 armor setup.

Modifié par beancounter501, 15 juin 2010 - 03:46 .

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
Ha, I knew you would turn you nose up at con, but I still say Rogues are extremely fragile do to low health. 10 Con gives 50 health (which is a 30% increase of your base), you lose 5 points of attack, 10 points of defense and maybe one or two points of dmg per hit - assuming you go double dagger. A fair trade off. Even though I am suprised at my self for recommending that!

So giving up Att, Def, and Damage for the ability to absorb ~2 more hits is a fair trade? Gotta disagree on that one.

beancounter501 wrote...
...I raised her str to 30, used Harvest Festival Ring and Helm of Honnelath to get to 34 str and equiped Diligence.

Boots of Diligence: AC - 4.63, Fatigue - 2.81
Cadash Stompers: AC - 4.66, Fatigue - 1.69

Armor of Diligence: AC - 15.13, Fatigue - 17.5, +.5 Stam Regen
Felon's Coat:           AC - 13.00, Fatigue - 2.3, + a crapload of Bonuses

Just sayin'...

beancounter501 wrote...
...She specced as a Duelist - which is not a very impressive spec.

Duelist is much like American Express - Don't leave home without it.

Spec Bonus:
+2 Dex
+1 Damage (essentially a free, unresistable novice rune in each hand)

Dueling:
+10 ATT is always useful, especially at Lvl 7 when you get it. And it's pretty cheap.

Upset Balance:
Not too interesting. Any enemy tough enough to warrant such a debuff is most likely going to resist. Usually just a waste of stamina.

Keen Defense:
Additional + 10 DEF from Dueling. About Lvl 14 you should be able to acquire Felon's as well, so essentially add +25 DEF to whatever you had at Lvl 13. DEX Rogues are getting very close to unhittable at this point.

Pinpoint Strike:
Expensive with a ridiculous cooldown. Also insanely powerful if used properly. A dag/dag/Momentum Rogue attacking every .7 sec has the potential to land 21 consecutive criticals...30 if you add a Swift Salve. Combine with MoD to totally brutalize your unfortunate opponent. Also handy if you get Misdirection Hexed.

beancounter501 wrote...
I also picked up Evasion...

25% Dodge is good...but not when it has a 'block' animation tied to it. This will completely hose your Attack rate. Especially disastrous for DEX Rogues as the game checks to Evade before checking DEF. So on 25% of those attacks that would have otherwise missed you completely, you now have to stop attacking and block. Marvelous.

beancounter501 wrote...
Sent Leliana in solo against the Deserted Building in Stealth. She did extremely good. She would sneak into the room and open with a Riposte, and then slug it out toe to by herself with the rest of the room. She got stunned, but her armor and health saved her...

More effective to not get stunned in the first place.

Scattershot:
When you see the float, you have ~3 sec. to kill, stun, paralyze, go invisible, or LoS. And some of those meathead archers, even at the high end, don't have Melee Archer so can be interrupted with damage. Bear in mind most Archers are Rogue-based and will throw Dirty Fighting if engaged in melee. Be preemptive. Also, once they have started a 'Bowshot' animation, they can't do anything else until they fire or are interrupted. Use this to your advantage.

Shield Pummel:
The stun comes at the end of a slow animation. Plenty of time to interrupt w/ DF, Riposte, or Stealth.

Stunning Blows:
More of a STR Rogue issue. At this level, 2H shouldn't be able to hit a DEX Rogue.

And if you do have to take a stun, try to arrange it so there's not 5 other guys pounding on you when it occurs.

Sounds like you're getting the hang of how the spec plays, though. Of course, you're in one of the tougher areas of the game. Might be easy to learn by murdering Genlocks, instead.

Modifié par Random70, 15 juin 2010 - 06:45 .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

My pure dex rogue nightmare solo had these stats.



20 strength

22 cunning

max dex



All after fade of course. Was @ 130 defense at level 15 which made him pretty much immune to everything but magic, bosses and yellows, but yellows hit him very rarely. After 160 only thing that hit him was magic and bosses.



Ogres are quiet easy to kill. I used dirty fighting ---> backstabs ---> stealth ---> flurry(all hits get crit) dead ogre. I had momentum up as well.



The only thing that really made me hurt was Scattershot which made Denerim kind of hard. Crushing Prison was pretty nasty but I always opened on emissaries, so they were non factors. I don't think you need the heavy gear at all and would rather spend my points in Cunning or Dex.



My gear was



Felon's Coat

Jenny's Gloves

Andriul's Blessing

Lifegiver

Key to the City

The Rose's Thorn

Crow Dagger(t7)

Wade's Boots

Spellward



I'm going to run again as a solo rogue. Trying cunning out since I think proper use of stealth and CC can make up for the lower defense. Cunning will give me some nice offensive numbers.



Though I am curious if I put paralyze runes on my offhand will they still proc when backstabbing? Because I know the damage runes won't gain damage on backstabs from your off hand. I imagine it is the same for paralyze.

[Elhanan]

38 STR will allow Evons & Wade's combo; extremely fatigue friendly set, and allows a helm of choice. But I also advise against CON, as DEX, STR, CUNNING, and WILL are enough mouths to feed already; some being hungrier than others.

Duelist - also great for archers. And I have read that the Pinpoint can be used too, as well as the Duelist bonuses.

One reason I like STR/armor is the freedom from the Lethality line, allowing picks for other choices.

[Jonas1974]

i am taking the lethality line for the crit bonus and evasion....i know it interupts attacks doing the animation, but adds some survivability to the rogue.



one thing i am using towards mages and tough opponents is ranger pets.....havent really seen it mentioned much, but it is very effective

[Hell Mutant]

I have found that the ranger pets are good early on while your rogue is weak, but later on, they aren't necessary...unless you are just using them for fun or RPing.

[DWSmiley]

Hell Mutant wrote...

I have found that the ranger pets are good early on while your rogue is weak, but later on, they aren't necessary...unless you are just using them for fun or RPing.

Pets are always good cannon fodder, lol.  Let them "lead" the party and they draw a lot of aggro.  It's particularly sweet to see an emissary waste a crushing prison on the pet.  It's also handy for encounters that start with a cut scene.  A trailing pet can get shut out of the room but if it's leading, it makes it in.

[beancounter501]

@Random - Ha, all I can say is no wonder you do need to boost con that much! I will happly admit you are a far better player then me. LOL, when I see "Scattershot" (which half the time I do not) I think "Crap here it comes!". Not I have 2.68759 seconds to stun, break LOS or stealth! I guess that is why you solo Nightmare and I do not!



Still, I do notice that that every solo Rogue being posted has some serious +con gear. Like Lifegiver. Now, if you were trying to build a NPC Rogue - no fade bonus and no lifegiver (The Lifegiver is going to a different party member) - why not con? Ten points is not going to sink your DPS or Defense. Not like you are a totaly gimp character now. Besides if 50 Health only lets you surive 2 extra attacks then a baseline Rogue with no Con gear or Fade bonus at level 16 can only take about 6 hits before taking a dirt nap. Going from 6 hits to 8 hits is a pretty big deal. More important then dealing a few extra points of dmg. I personally feel that is one of the reasons why you see quite a few posts about how fragile a Rogue is.



I think getting health in that 250 to 300 zone is a big deal for a front line character. Warriors can hit it no problem, but a Rogue really needs a con boost. There was a big difference between the performance between my last two test Rogues. The only major difference was one had +20 con(10 attribute, 10 Lifegiver) and the other had baseline con. Both had solid armor. But one dropped really fast, and the other could surive a stun and be dog piled by 3 to 5 guys. Giving him plenty of time to chug a potion. Just like dead enemies don't do dmg then dead party members don't kill anything.



I think in one sense it is easy to downplay health. But if you looked at the NWN2 Character guild and PvP tests having a decent health score was important. I still remember fighting some of those high HP, high DR Dwarven Defenders from Mithdrates Arena Module. I think if someone made an arena type module for DA you would see the low con Rogue get crushed quite a bit. Most of the guys you fight in DA have some stinky armor, attk and defense, Just lots of health. I would love to see a full blown warrior duke it out against a Rogue in PvP. Lets see a dex Rogue or lol a Cun Rogue surive a 2 Hand once he lights up perfect striking. Pommel Strike, perfect striking - dead rogue. But, the AW would probably kill everyone. Ah well, I really wish some module builder would get busy! I will say I am disappointed with no new real user made modules coming out for DA.





Ha, but anyways on to a more important questions = what tactics do you use against an Overwhlem. Especially chain overwhelm. I see no way to stop that in solo play. I just see more poor dead Rogue.



@Smiley - Yes, I agree a tank pet from Ranger is probably really useful. Always better let some non party member take the heat.

[miltos33]

Personally, I haven't found any way to avoid overwhelm other than a mage's field/glyph of repulsion which becomes particularly annoying in Awakening with all those children and their chain overwhelms. If there is another way I would also like to know.

[Jonas1974]

miltos33 wrote...

Personally, I haven't found any way to avoid overwhelm other than a mage's field/glyph of repulsion which becomes particularly annoying in Awakening with all those children and their chain overwhelms. If there is another way I would also like to know.

i dont know if it is a console glitch, but my pets use overwhelm, pretty often, which definately helps break the enemy's overwhelm and chain overwhelms.

[miltos33]

I see, you need the ranger specialization for that, and I think that can possibly work, so it is overwhelm against overwhelm.

[soteria]

I think getting health in that 250 to 300 zone is a big deal for a front line character. Warriors can hit it no problem, but a Rogue really needs a con boost. There was a big difference between the performance between my last two test Rogues. The only major difference was one had +20 con(10 attribute, 10 Lifegiver) and the other had baseline con. Both had solid armor. But one dropped really fast, and the other could surive a stun and be dog piled by 3 to 5 guys. Giving him plenty of time to chug a potion. Just like dead enemies don't do dmg then dead party members don't kill anything.

Setting up tactics to use combat stealth and dirty fighting when being attacked has always been enough for me to keep Zevran alive. On other fights, like dragons, I just switch him to ranged, and he rarely died.

Ha, but anyways on to a more important questions = what tactics do you use against an Overwhlem. Especially chain overwhelm. I see no way to stop that in solo play. I just see more poor dead Rogue.

You're not going to like this answer, but the two best tools I've found are Shale taunting, and just using Dog--every enemy attacking either of those characters will never overwhelm. Otherwise, a lot of CC is useful. If you watch my chokepoints video, you can see how I avoid getting overwhelmed in a few different fights (though I don't make a big deal about it at the time IIRC).

[Jestina]

I just use my party as meat shields and don't pay attention to them most of the time. As long as they can soak damage and occupy the enemies attention while my rogue wanders behind the lines, backstabbing enemies that are occupied with someone else.