252 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

aDuck wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aDuck wrote...
Point is he trys to conceal his weapons on Kasumi DLC, but not aboard the Normandy

Point is the cutscene is not a relevant proof of anything, especially about pistols. For example, why is everybody wielding ARs in the "suicide mission" cutscenes? And, if you haven't noticed, pistols and SMGs occupy the same slot on thecharacters, so you can see heavy pistol on them only if they dont have an SMG.

Hence, conclusion: Shepard could have had a pistol on him even though you don't see it in the cutscene. It's way more plausible then rebuilding you "exactly as you were", once your brain has been disintegrated.

You really wont back down, will you? *sigh* Its like fighting a troll, but the troll doesn't know he's trolling.

You say you can only see their pistol if they dont have an SMG.  Do you see an SMG?  Didnt think so.
And this isnt just in the cutscene.  This includes the part where you run around the burning ship getting to Joker.  I dont see a pistol or SMG or anything there.  Plausability doesn't make an argument.  We thought it made more sence that the sun revolved around us years and years ago, but look how that turned out...

I will gladly back down when you defeat my theory by proposing a better one. So far I get only "me smart - you troll" arguments. Can't you live up to your own example with the Sun? The theory of it revolving around the Earth was defeated by the theory that the Earth revolves around its own axis. And not by a theory involving a space wizard driving a fiery chariot across  the sky.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 juin 2010 - 09:42 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

It's a known fact that no human can ever survive atmospheric reentry. I guess the way the developers looked at it is that Shepard lost consciousness well before the cutscene faded to black. Some time later, she was somewhere on the planets' surface, dead and completely incapacitated. This is where the speculation ends. Who went to Alchera to retrieve her body or how long she was on Alchera for before she was retrieved is something we simply aren't meant to know. In fact, it's very difficult to even speculate on this. Too many variables, and too many things to take under consideration.



As for the pistols/SMG/AR's matter, I would call it laziness on the developers' part, but I don't know.

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Too many variables, and too many things to take under consideration.

There is one invariable thing though. If the brain decomposes, the personality and memories are lost. So it's either not Shepard that we play as in ME2, or Shepard did not die quite properly.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Too many variables, and too many things to take under consideration.

There is one invariable thing though. If the brain decomposes, the personality and memories are lost. So it's either not Shepard that we play as in ME2, or Shepard did not die quite properly.

Could be anything, really. Jacob did say "meat and tubes", but perhaps there's a little more to it than that. What  I would personally like to know is how long Shepard was lying on Alchera for, before she was found and retrieved.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 26 juin 2010 - 09:06 .

[snfonseka]

faction699 wrote...

yeah except shepard wasn't at the normandy crash site as you clearly learn from dialog with legion

Legion didn't arrive at the crash site immediately and when he did, the body was gone… because Shadow Broker’s operatives removed it from the crash site.

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Too many variables, and too many things to take under consideration.

There is one invariable thing though. If the brain decomposes, the personality and memories are lost. So it's either not Shepard that we play as in ME2, or Shepard did not die quite properly.

Could be anything, really. Jacob did say "meat and tubes", but perhaps there's a little more to it than that. What  I would personally like to know is how long Shepard was lying on Alchera for, before she was found and retrieved.

"Meat and tubes" can refer to a severely frost-bitten body with the skin (almost) completely exfoliated due to severe gangrene. Several major bone fractures could also have been evident. But if the lungs and heart had failed (aka Shepard died) just minutes before the body was found and put into a stasis pod with life support equipment, that would keep the brain structure intact for the lenght of the Redemption, then there is a possibilitty that we play our ME1 Shepards, and not Shepard VIs misled to believe that they are the ME1 Shepards.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 juin 2010 - 09:30 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Too many variables, and too many things to take under consideration.

There is one invariable thing though. If the brain decomposes, the personality and memories are lost. So it's either not Shepard that we play as in ME2, or Shepard did not die quite properly.

Could be anything, really. Jacob did say "meat and tubes", but perhaps there's a little more to it than that. What  I would personally like to know is how long Shepard was lying on Alchera for, before she was found and retrieved.

"Meat and tubes" can refer to a severely frost-bitten body with the skin (almost) completely exfoliated due to severe gangrene. Several major bone fractures could also have been evident. But if the lungs and heart had failed (aka Shepard died) just minutes before the body was found and put into a stasis pod with life support equipment, that would keep the brain structure intact for the lenght of the Redemption, then there is a possibilitty that we play our ME1 Shepards, and not Shepard VIs misled to believe that they are the ME1 Shepards.

Can't argue with that.

[Turran]

...But he does die? Jacob says that at the very start.. D: If I have mis-read it somewhere then correct me but I think your claiming he was never dead, just badly hurt.

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Too many variables, and too many things to take under consideration.

There is one invariable thing though. If the brain decomposes, the personality and memories are lost. So it's either not Shepard that we play as in ME2, or Shepard did not die quite properly.

I like this deduction.

It's not so much the brain decomposing naturally, but being braindead in a matter of ways after a certain amount of time (let's say, 30 seconds.)  Depressurization, absolute zero temperatures, skull fractures (we find Shepard's helmet on the planet: explain that one.)  This needs to be explained.

Shepard fell, and was not caught or defeated by a supernatural being, or a  Sufficiently Advanced Alien.  Physics still works.  But we not only need to know the physics explained, we need future sci-fi medical science explained.  All we get is "it's possible."  What's possible?  The sci-fi medical science has to explain the unexplained happenstance physics.  As Miranda states "Sub-zero temperatures": that could be anything below C/F (obviously not K.)

[Zulu_DFA]

Turran wrote...

...But he does die? Jacob says that at the very start.. D: If I have mis-read it somewhere then correct me but I think your claiming he was never dead, just badly hurt.

One minute Jacob says: "You've been dead, as dead can be".
Next minute Jacob says: "You've been comatose... or worse".
Then comes the bonus: "You should ask the scientists, if you wan't details. I'm just a soldier."
And then the lead scientist is killed by Miranda.

That's a hell's lot of room for leeway interpretations.

So my interpretation is this: Shepards heart and lungs stopped functioning due to sustained damage. But immediately after that (in a matter of minutes) the Blue Suns showed up with medical equipment that allowed to conserve Shepard in the condition of clinical death until resuscitation procedures could commence at the Lazarus station. Shepard's internal organs, incuding lungs and heart were repaired or replaced with cloned tissue and cybernetic augmentation (which Miranda calls "bio-syntetic fusion" in her log). But the brain was mostly untouched and the damage to it was minimal. Otherwise, it would be impossible to salvage Shepard's personality. At best he would come out with Alzheimer's syndrome. And the thing for us to play as in ME2 would not be Shepard, but a Shepard VI (which makes little sense to me).

I do not totally dismiss the fictional science's potential to preserve a personality with the help of some external gizmo, then "reinstall" it on a body built up from scratch, like in the 6th Day movie (however much it may smell like nonsense). But the personality has to be intact (brain alive), which brings back the same question - how Shepard ['s brain] survived the crash? To make it possible for such a device to be use on him. And whenever there were an opportunity to "back up" Shepard's personality, there would be present a much easier (in terms of science) option to preserve Shepard's brain.

smudboy wrote...
(we find Shepard's helmet on the planet: explain that one.) 

This one is easy. The Blue Suns threw it away, when they were putting Shepard's clinical corpse into the stasis pod. Alchera's description (surface temperature and pressure) happens to be quite close to Antarctic highland. Air is not breatheable, but it's of no importance, since we admit that the lungs were bustad anyway. And a couple of minutes more in the open, say, a quarter of an hour after Shepard's blood stopped circulating, is an admissible stretch.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 juin 2010 - 01:48 .

[Tooneyman]

Questions did anyone in here read redemptions the comic book?

[Zulu_DFA]

Tooneyman wrote...

Questions did anyone in here read redemptions the comic book?

You have to read the comic books? Wow! I thought they are all about pictures...

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This one is easy. The Blue Suns threw it away, when they were putting Shepard's clinical corpse into the stasis pod. Alchera's description (surface temperature and pressure) happens to be quite close to Antarctic highland. Air is not breatheable, but it's of no importance, since we admit that the lungs were bustad anyway. And a couple of minutes more in the open, say, a quarter of an hour after Shepard's blood stopped circulating, is an admissible stretch.

I can't recall, since the Normandy SR1 mission is boring beyond belief and I never do it, but wasn't there a massive hole in the helmet?  Absolute-zero temperatures would crystalize any fluid in body, including the brain.  This could be believable, since Purgatory has people in "cryo-stasis", but I'm quite sure there'd be more procedure to that then spacing people.  (Let's also not imagine what would happen to a body after having its fluids crystalized, then smashing into a planet at 1000+mph.)

[aDuck]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aDuck wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aDuck wrote...
Point is he trys to conceal his weapons on Kasumi DLC, but not aboard the Normandy

Point is the cutscene is not a relevant proof of anything, especially about pistols. For example, why is everybody wielding ARs in the "suicide mission" cutscenes? And, if you haven't noticed, pistols and SMGs occupy the same slot on thecharacters, so you can see heavy pistol on them only if they dont have an SMG.

Hence, conclusion: Shepard could have had a pistol on him even though you don't see it in the cutscene. It's way more plausible then rebuilding you "exactly as you were", once your brain has been disintegrated.

You really wont back down, will you? *sigh* Its like fighting a troll, but the troll doesn't know he's trolling.

You say you can only see their pistol if they dont have an SMG.  Do you see an SMG?  Didnt think so.
And this isnt just in the cutscene.  This includes the part where you run around the burning ship getting to Joker.  I dont see a pistol or SMG or anything there.  Plausability doesn't make an argument.  We thought it made more sence that the sun revolved around us years and years ago, but look how that turned out...

I will gladly back down when you defeat my theory by proposing a better one. So far I get only "me smart - you troll" arguments. Can't you live up to your own example with the Sun? The theory of it revolving around the Earth was defeated by the theory that the Earth revolves around its own axis. And not by a theory involving a space wizard driving a fiery chariot across  the sky.

Ok, but you still havent supported your arguments.  I am under the impression that he plumeted into the planet,  and hit the surface.  Whatever happened after that is pure... science (lacking for a more correct word).  This is one of the only explinations that explaines the circumstances.  No guns on his person. Rapidly losing oxygen.  Helmet found on planet.  It explaines the broken bones, unlike being found in low orbit.

We don't know too much about the brain, so saying that as soon as the brain is dead, it cannot be recovered is abit wrong.  Its could be like integrating.  It has gone one way, and we can work out the pattern going the other way.  We could also get the exact formula for going the other way if we use different points of reference.  Anyway, this is, as you said, a "fantasy" game, so anything could happen.

I reckon that anything could be possible, as long as it has support.  Darwin has support for his theory of evolution (I am a Christian open to ideas by the way).  However, by proving that your ideas are faulty, you need to rethink and refine your ideas that explain your ideas to explain the situation better then "he pulled a pistol out of his rectum".

[Zulu_DFA]

aDuck wrote...
We don't know too much about the brain.

http://en.wikipedia....its_of_reversal

For starters, this would suffice. BTW, it extends the period of Shepard's possible clinical death in my scenario to more than one hour.

And since you claim to be open to ideas, you need to come to terms with the notion, that once the H2-O in your brain cells turns into ice, it shatters every and each of them, and you personality is destroyed permanently. Once you achieve that, the turn to tell who needs what may be yours.

[uzivatel]

Vaenier wrote...

He rode a cargo container to the planet's surface. All the cool guys do it.

The Collectors must love the smell of Bulgari.

[Inthatplace]

khevan wrote...

One thing to point out...

In the opening sequence of ME2, if you look closely, you'll notice tubes running from Shepard's back up to the back of his/her helmet. So the comment that you don't see tubes in ME2 is moot. They're there. Don't believe me? Start up a new game and see for yourself.

As far as shooting yourself back to the Normandy...

Physics doesn't work that way. The explosion that knocked you away from the Normandy did so at a fairly high rate of speed, at least from what the cutscene showed. It'd take a force equal to the force of that explosion to simply STOP Shepard's motion relative to the Normandy, and even more force to get him moving back towards the ship. I very much doubt Shepard's entire loadout of ammo would yield that much force, so that theory is shot full of holes. (See what I did there?)

Finally, you can't point towards something in a cutscene as proof of a theory, or at least supporting evidence, and then dismiss similar evidence from a cutscene "because you can't trust cutscenes."

Shepard does not have a pistol when he's thrown from the Normandy. There's no place for him to stow it, except outside his suit, and we get a good view of most of his body during that cutscene. Therefore, he had no pistol.

The basic fact of the matter is that the writers said that Shepard hit the planet, and died, not necessarily in that order. They didn't go into details as to how they recovered Shepard's memories and personalities, but who knows what medical technology could exist a coupla centuries from now, especially aided by advanced tech discovered from an advanced alien species!

Shepard died exactly how the game describes, and was brought back exactly how the game describes. Does it make sense from a modern medical viewpoint? Hell no, but the MEverse isn't exactly set in modern day "real life."

I like how he didn't respond to you.

[Ooga600]

How do you know that his personality is completely intact? Shepard could have been a nice guy in ME1 but a total douchebag in ME2. Even though they ran memory tests, I doubt Shepard is really the same as he was.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ooga600 wrote...

How do you know that his personality is completely intact? Shepard could have been a nice guy in ME1 but a total douchebag in ME2. Even though they ran memory tests, I doubt Shepard is really the same as he was.

Of course not. Thermal ammo, naked women in vacuum, occasional mild amnesia, halucinations during the end-boss fight... all those are the symptoms of the Shepard's post mortem cognition disorder. *Shrug.* That's what I call "minimal damage".

[Tcase710]

I'm pretty sure toward the end of the cutscene you can see Shep being pulled into the planet's orbit and it looks like he starts to burn up, but even if that isn't true, he is way too far away from the wreckage to "shoot" himself back to the Normandy.

[Zaxares]

It's an interesting theory, Zulu, but I have to agree that it's a little far-fetched. The explosion that propelled Shepard away from the Normandy looked to have been quite forceful, which means that he would need something of equal or greater force to change his momentum and direction. Considering that your weapons are typically enveloped in mass effect fields so the kickback doesn't send you flying, it's unlikely that he could use his weapons (or even the escaping oxygen) to change his direction.



It's more likely that Shepard did indeed fall directly into the planet, but his suit and its kinetic barriers kept his body in a relatively intact piece when it landed. The impact still broke all of his bones and ruptured his internal organs, but he wouldn't have felt any of that, since oxygen deprivation would have rendered him unconscious LONG before impact.



Alchera seems to be a frozen planet, so presumably the extreme cold there kept Shepard's remains in a preserved state until the Blue Suns showed up on the scene. They scraped whatever they could find into a stasis tube, in which condition it remained until Cerberus got their hands on him.



You make a very good point about Shepard's personality and memories probably being destroyed if the synaptic connections in the brain are destroyed. The only plausible explanation we can turn to at this point is that it was nothing short of a miracle that Shepard's brain survived in an intact enough state for Project Lazarus to put him back together. The synaptic connections may have been lost, but through cybernetic implants and computer-aided 'imprinting' (similar to what Okeer usd to teach his cloned krogans), Cerberus might have been able to reconstruct a lot of what was lost.



Although if this theory is correct, then Shepard is in even greater debt to The Illusive Man than previously thought, since TIM could easily have re-written Shepard's memories to make him more loyal/supportive of Cerberus' goals and ideology.

[smudboy]

Zaxares wrote...
It's more likely that Shepard did indeed fall directly into the planet, but his suit and its kinetic barriers kept his body in a relatively intact piece when it landed. The impact still broke all of his bones and ruptured his internal organs, but he wouldn't have felt any of that, since oxygen deprivation would have rendered him unconscious LONG before impact.

Save his dead body being at absolute zero, depressurized, having all the fluid in it crystalized, combined with 1000+ mph impact on a planet?  Kind of like that effect with cryo ammo.

Alchera seems to be a frozen planet, so presumably the extreme cold there kept Shepard's remains in a preserved state until the Blue Suns showed up on the scene. They scraped whatever they could find into a stasis tube, in which condition it remained until Cerberus got their hands on him.

Preserved as in whatever didn't get flattened on impact as recognizable as a spacesuit.

You make a very good point about Shepard's personality and memories probably being destroyed if the synaptic connections in the brain are destroyed. The only plausible explanation we can turn to at this point is that it was nothing short of a miracle that Shepard's brain survived in an intact enough state for Project Lazarus to put him back together. The synaptic connections may have been lost, but through cybernetic implants and computer-aided 'imprinting' (similar to what Okeer usd to teach his cloned krogans), Cerberus might have been able to reconstruct a lot of what was lost.

It's pure speculation.  Without sufficient exposition, the theory that Cerberus built their own Shepard seems more likely.

Although if this theory is correct, then Shepard is in even greater debt to The Illusive Man than previously thought, since TIM could easily have re-written Shepard's memories to make him more loyal/supportive of Cerberus' goals and ideology.

If Shepard's a clone/copy, they'd have the same attitude/personality.  Having this being revealed?  No big deal.  Considering Shepard was told to be resurrected, this didn't seem to bother them either way, or anyone else.  What's any further revelation going to do to Mr/Ms. Brick?  An extra few lines of dialog that show no characterization.

[aDuck]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aDuck wrote...
We don't know too much about the brain.

http://en.wikipedia....its_of_reversal

For starters, this would suffice. BTW, it extends the period of Shepard's possible clinical death in my scenario to more than one hour.

And since you claim to be open to ideas, you need to come to terms with the notion, that once the H2-O in your brain cells turns into ice, it shatters every and each of them, and you personality is destroyed permanently. Once you achieve that, the turn to tell who needs what may be yours.

Like to point out that wiki isnt the best way to back your arguments, but i'll go with it.
Ok, ill take it that you know your stuff in this area.  However, the logic in this situation doesnt match up.  You said he freezes to death... it seems youve shot yourself in the foot.

Quick run-down of how I see the situation:

-No oxygen, so incapacitation is inevitable in < 2 min.
-No weapon to shoot himself to the ship.
-Propelled away from the ship from an explosion.
-Cant use the oxygen leak to propell himself to the ship because its on both sides of his body (also very little force of leak vs very large force of explosion means he'll struggle to overcome his initial velocity away from the ship, let alone get to the ship)

My theory:
The cutscene is how it is.  He falls unconscious after his oxygen runs out (shown by the leak stopping).  Now falling from space into a planets atmosphere means that his suit will heat up due to the friction of the particles in the atmosphere, and the velocity the mass is moving.  This would also explain why his skin looks charred and black when he is being recovered.  When he hits the planet, he will take a much longer time for his brain to "freeze over".  Also, he may not have been flattened like a pancake because it is a snowy planet.  Lots of ice to break bones, but plenty of snow to slow his fall before hitting ice below the snow.

PS: would like to know how cryogenics work then, if freezing the brain effectively kills you.
PPS: would like ot know where you got the idea that its not a sci-fi but a fantasy in space...
PPPS: why did you go back to calling it a sci-fi?
PPPPS: please find me a tyer that seals itself.  tyres dont work with lots of tubes, they are just big balloons with a valve stuck in it.  Puncture it, and you need an adhesive to spray in the valve to plug the leak.
PPPPPS: he doesnt have a gun.  play through the start when you rescue joker and NOTHING IS ATTACHED TO HIM
PPPPPPS:khevens whole discussion on the end of page 4 is a good summary.

PPPPPPPS: I am critiquing your theory.  If you manage to find seals to the holes in your theory, it would be very plausable.  However, with these holes, it cannot become a plausable theory.  If you cannot handle critics, then dont state it on a forum.

Modifié par aDuck, 27 juin 2010 - 02:48 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Lets face it. Bioware didn't think out that whole plot point too well. Short of divine intervention, what happened to Shepard is impossible. So just don't think about it. It is a great game regardless.



Bioware should have gone with the route of him being recovered and put into stasis barely alive. More believable than some minimum-wage Cerberus employee collecting bits of charred Shepard into a plastic bag.



But what was the point of that whole thing anyway? To move the plot forward two years, to allow the player to reconstruct Shepard's face, to have you working for Cerberus? Seems an odd method.

[snfonseka]

ReconTeam wrote...

Lets face it. Bioware didn't think out that whole plot point too well. Short of divine intervention, what happened to Shepard is impossible. So just don't think about it. It is a great game regardless.

Bioware should have gone with the route of him being recovered and put into stasis barely alive. More believable than some minimum-wage Cerberus employee collecting bits of charred Shepard into a plastic bag.

But what was the point of that whole thing anyway? To move the plot forward two years, to allow the player to reconstruct Shepard's face, to have you working for Cerberus? Seems an odd method.

Yea... this is a place where BW ruined their own game plot...