252 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

wiggles89 wrote...

Trying to make sense of the nonsensical is like playing tennis against a brick wall.

Yes, because no tennis-like sports that involve courts with walls exist.

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]aDuck wrote...
-No oxygen, so incapacitation is inevitable in < 2 min.
[/quote]

Suit auto-seals the rupture then repressurizes itself from a small tank or liquid oxygen... sci-fi stuff.
BTW it is never conmfirmed that the "tubes" you see connecting the helmet to the back of the hardsuit in ME1 and the intro of ME2 are transporting oxygen. Maybe they are computer cabling, and the advanced models of hardsuits, like the ones we get in ME2 use bluetooth interface instead...

[quote]aDuck wrote...
-No weapon to shoot himself to the ship.
[/quote]
From other instances we know that a weapon does not need to be visible on Shepard to be pulled off and held in his hand in the next cutscene/combat situation. So Shepard might have had a pistol on him during that intro sequence, just an "invisible" one.

[quote]aDuck wrote...
-Propelled away from the ship from an explosion.
[/quote]
Even in the freaky cinematic you see that Shepard's relative speed is not that fast, as he flies away from the the severed Normandy's bridge (which also means that he is closing on the bulk of the wreck). Then we see for about 5 seconds Shepard up close, then the camera backs away and we see Shepard near the bottom edge of the screen, which means that the Normandy's wreck may be quite close, just "below" it. Even if the suit does not repressurize itself, there is still a whole one and a half minute before incapacitation due to deoxygenation, during which anything may happen. Including an big explosion on the Normandy's wreck, that could have propelled it toward's Shepard.

Anyway. We find most of the Normandy's remains, and Shepard's helmet on the site with the area of a few acres, which proves that the Normandy fully desintegrated only at a very low altitude, and even the bridge, that was severed from the rest of the wreck in orbit (according to the freaking cinematic), fell down following the same trajectory.

And the Mako bears no sign of significant impact damage, which means her thrusters were fired. Was it in auto mode? Doutbtful, since there is no reason for Mako to be started before the the attack. Then it was started after the attack. By who? Shepard's helmet less then 50 yards away from the Mako gives a suggestion...

[quote]aDuck wrote...
My theory:
The cutscene is how it is.  He falls unconscious after his oxygen runs out (shown by the leak stopping).  Now falling from space into a planets atmosphere means that his suit will heat up due to the friction of the particles in the atmosphere, and the velocity the mass is moving.  This would also explain why his skin looks charred and black when he is being recovered.  When he hits the planet...
[/quote]
And here your theory comes to an end. Because when the ~60 kilogram object hits the planet, all the Shepard part of it will turn into goo. Even if some brain cells could survive the impact, without blood circulation they would assume the temperature of the outside environment within an hour. Which means they will be exlpoded by the freezing H2-O.

[quote]aDuck wrote... 
he will take a much longer time for his brain to "freeze over".  Also, he may not have been flattened like a pancake because it is a snowy planet.  Lots of ice to break bones, but plenty of snow to slow his fall before hitting ice below the snow.
[/quote]
Dude, I have only 17 parachute jumps myself and luckily nobody ever died around me from parachute failure. But I talked to people who have thousands of jumps and seen the results of accidents. There is no difference how deep is the snow. It's still a goo in a skin bag.

[quote]aDuck wrote... 
PS: would like to know how cryogenics work then, if freezing the brain effectively kills you.
[/quote]
Sure it does, once the water turns into ice.

[quote]aDuck wrote... 
PPS: would like ot know where you got the idea that its not a sci-fi but a fantasy in space...
[/quote]
Boobs in space, and sex with Tali.

[quote]aDuck wrote... 
PPPS: why did you go back to calling it a sci-fi?
[/quote]
Because I am a silly wishful thinker, and consider Mass Effect One one of the best computer games I ever played.

[quote]aDuck wrote... 
PPPPS: please find me a tyer that seals itself.  tyres dont work with lots of tubes, they are just big balloons with a valve stuck in it.  Puncture it, and you need an adhesive to spray in the valve to plug the leak.
[/quote]
Sorry, it will be Wiki again: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tire_mousse

[quote]aDuck wrote... 
PPPPPS: he doesnt have a gun.  play through the start when you rescue joker and NOTHING IS ATTACHED TO HIM
[/quote]
Even if there is no "invisible" gun on him during the cutscene, he may catch one that was flying by among the debris.

[quote]aDuck wrote... 
PPPPPPPS: I am critiquing your theory.  If you manage to find seals to the holes in your theory, it would be very plausable.  However, with these holes, it cannot become a plausable theory.  If you cannot handle critics, then dont state it on a forum.
[/quote]

One last time. Critisize my theory all you want. Still it stands until you bring up a better one. And "space wizard did it" is not it.

If a snowball made it through an oven, there must have been a way. Or it's just another snowball.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 juin 2010 - 01:06 .

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dude, I have only 17 parachute jumps myself and luckily nobody ever died around me from parachute failure. But I talked to people who have thousands of jumps and seen the results of accidents. There is no difference how deep is the snow. It's still a goo in a skin bag.

You'd be surprised at the falls people have survived.  It's not always just "goo in skin bag", even if falling from rather ridiculous altitudes:

Vesna Vulovic

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 juin 2010 - 05:10 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

snfonseka wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Lets face it. Bioware didn't think out that whole plot point too well. Short of divine intervention, what happened to Shepard is impossible. So just don't think about it. It is a great game regardless.

Bioware should have gone with the route of him being recovered and put into stasis barely alive. More believable than some minimum-wage Cerberus employee collecting bits of charred Shepard into a plastic bag.

But what was the point of that whole thing anyway? To move the plot forward two years, to allow the player to reconstruct Shepard's face, to have you working for Cerberus? Seems an odd method.

Yea... this is a place where BW ruined their own game plot...

Do I detect some sarcasm? I'm not saying "THEY RUINED EVERYTHING!" I didn't put down the controller and snap my disc in half.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dude, I have only 17 parachute jumps myself and luckily nobody ever died around me from parachute failure. But I talked to people who have thousands of jumps and seen the results of accidents. There is no difference how deep is the snow. It's still a goo in a skin bag.

You'd be surprised at the falls people have survived.  It's not always just "goo in skin bag", even if falling from rather ridiculous altitudes:

Vesna Vulovic

Are you kidding? She survived a plane crash, not a free fall from 10K meters.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dude, I have only 17 parachute jumps myself and luckily nobody ever died around me from parachute failure. But I talked to people who have thousands of jumps and seen the results of accidents. There is no difference how deep is the snow. It's still a goo in a skin bag.

You'd be surprised at the falls people have survived.  It's not always just "goo in skin bag", even if falling from rather ridiculous altitudes:

Vesna Vulovic

Are you kidding? She survived a plane crash, not a free fall from 10K meters.

Fine, you like this guy better?

Ivan Chisov

Or this guy?

Alan Magee

How 'bout this guy?

Nicholas Alkemade

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 juin 2010 - 05:41 .

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Dude, I have only 17 parachute jumps myself and luckily nobody ever died around me from parachute failure. But I talked to people who have thousands of jumps and seen the results of accidents. There is no difference how deep is the snow. It's still a goo in a skin bag.

You'd be surprised at the falls people have survived.  It's not always just "goo in skin bag", even if falling from rather ridiculous altitudes:

Vesna Vulovic

Are you kidding? She survived a plane crash, not a free fall from 10K meters.

Fine, you like this guy better?

Ivan Chisov

Or this guy?

Alan Magee

How 'bout this guy?

Nicholas Alkemade

Too bad Davy Crockett died at Alamo. He could add a story such as these to his "riding the cannonball" and "leaping the Mississippi" trademarks.

Even if some of these miraculous tales are true, or Shepard survived a fall from orbit by a space miracle, it does not explain how he managed to land among the Normandy's debris and not freeze to permament death long before help arrived, which were many hours, if not days.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 juin 2010 - 12:07 .

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Too bad Davy Crockett died at Alamo. He could add a story such as these to his "riding the cannonbal" and "leaping the Mississippi" trademarks.

Ah. I see: if you dismiss things out of hand, even if they're documented, then they must not be true. 

Even if some of this miraculous tales are true, or Shepard survived a fall from orbit by a space miracle, it does not explain how he managed to land among the Normandy's debris and not freeze to permament death long before help arrived, which were many hours, if not days.

Good thing I was only disputing that one specific claim of yours then (i.e.  long fall always equals goo bag), instead of attempting to address all these other problems or claim that Shepard was still alive upon landing.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Too bad Davy Crockett died at Alamo. He could add a story such as these to his "riding the cannonbal" and "leaping the Mississippi" trademarks.

Ah. I see: if you dismiss things out of hand, even if they're documented, then they must not be true. 

Documented by what? I kinda wish to read that certificate the Gestapo gave to Alkemade. I like black humor, and I bet the Nаzis put a lot of it there.

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Even if some of these miraculous tales are true, or Shepard survived a fall from orbit by a space miracle, it does not explain how he managed to land among the Normandy's debris and not freeze to permament death long before help arrived, which were many hours, if not days.

Good thing I was only disputing that one specific claim of yours then (i.e.  long fall always equals goo bag), instead of attempting to address all these other problems or claim that Shepard was still alive upon landing.

Yes, because the probability of two objects descending at different trajectories from orbit to hit the same spot on the planet's surface is freaking zero.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 juin 2010 - 12:10 .

[ShuvelAndRaek]

i would like to submit a theory- the suits oxygen came directly from the neck, bit was pumped out from the back, so that it can be ejected so as not to be poisonous. once shep realizes thats all thats wrong, s/he uses the venting gas to propel himself to the ship? also- even if shep was shot away from the wreck at ridiculously high speeds, several consecutive pistol shots could slow him/her down. the guns can be pretty small, seeing as they unfold, and shep is running funny, it might just not show well.

[ShuvelAndRaek]

oh, forgot this, kal'reegar (spelling?) has a suit penetration, and uses some sort of seal to lock down the area. quarians are always out and about, whos to say they didnt share this technology with the alliance? shep could have just calmed down once the vent self-sealed

[Zulu_DFA]

ShuvelAndRaek wrote...

oh, forgot this, kal'reegar (spelling?) has a suit penetration, and uses some sort of seal to lock down the area. quarians are always out and about, whos to say they didnt share this technology with the alliance? shep could have just calmed down once the vent self-sealed

Man, you're posting things that make me think that I've got a split personality and you are my alter ego. Or may be I am yours? Sh*t, this "plot hole" stuff takes a hold on me. And I'm assuming Shepard's post mortem cognition disorder.

Lol.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 juin 2010 - 01:13 .

[Dustbeard]

I normally despise argument-laden debates but this thread is seriously entertaining!  Angry logic aside, there's some great points being made about a gap in ME2's story that really bothered me, at least until I forgot about it and just got on with enjoying the game. 

Sometimes you can examine a story too much, but I'd like to add these points anyway:

1. Shepard was definitely in space for some time according to Miranda's report - long term exposure to a vacuum is mentioned (exactly how long 'long term' may be is debatable).  This exposure caused him harm so we can assume his hardsuit was compromised in some manner.  Even so, people don't 'flash freeze' in space because of...er, something to do with pressure, not enough of it or something.
2. ME hardsuits are seriously advanced, and Shepard's has to be top-notch considering he's both a Spectre and an N7.  In ME1 it has full life support capability (several planets are hot, cold, toxic or have no atmosphere) and it's only going to improve - who's to say it doesn't have a built-in 'stasis app' or something?  Also it's not such a stretch to assume the suit would protect him from reentry - a star-faring military has to have considered that might happen, plus the suit has shields.  That doesn't mean he landed completely intact, even in ideal conditions things would have burned off or been smashed to pieces on impact.
3.  As for falling onto a planet, maybe he crashed through the surface of a frozen lake or landed in a very deep snow drift?  Actually ignore that last one.  Also I find it highly unlikely Shepard drifted through space for a while and landed anywhere near the Normandy crash site - I know his helmet was there but there are many implausible explanations for that (it was a spare, a Conrad Verner replica, someone tossed it from the shuttle ferrying Shepard's body, etc)
4. Futuristic medical stasis isn't a reality for us just yet, but in Mass Effect's time it's commonplace.  However it's supposed to work, we don't understand it yet.  Maybe Shepard's brain was saved on a computer and they just uploaded it?  Or, more likely, we don't actually know very much about brains at all and they don't work like we think they do.
5. Genetic and cybernetic upgrades are common in Mass Effect, especially in the military.  Even before being rebuilt Shepard could be considered superhuman by our standards.  Human survival standards might not apply.
6. Finally, Jacob's 'flesh and tubes' comment isn't a medical diagnosis.  He didn't operate on Shepard, admits he doesn't have all the facts, and for all we know only heard about Shepard's injuries from exaggerated gossip around a Cerberus water cooler. 

[Ksandor]

"Meat and tubes" > Meat and veins

[Zulu_DFA]

And, to make it easier to believe:



In ME1 Ashley once said: "Every marine a rifleman. Every rifleman ZG-certified". And Shepard is not an ordinary marine. He is the top grade Spec Ops marine. No doubt he had received an extensive training to use weightlessness to gain every possible tactical advantage in combat. And it's highly probable that during that training exactly such "spacing" situation, as that he found himself in during the ME2 opening sequence, was simulated or even worked through live! So, all he had to do to get back to the Normandy's wreck was to remember his training.

[CroGamer002]

I would like to inform you guys that Shepard didn't survive crash since he DIED and got RESURRECTED by Cerberus in Lazarus project.

[Zulu_DFA]

Mesina2 wrote...

I would like to inform you guys that Shepard didn't survive crash since he DIED and got RESURRECTED by Cerberus in Lazarus project.

In other words: he survived.

[CroGamer002]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

I would like to inform you guys that Shepard didn't survive crash since he DIED and got RESURRECTED by Cerberus in Lazarus project.

In other words: he survived.

He surv...?! Whatever.

[AjaxDuo]

I think your all forgeting about Sir Issac Neutons number one rule here, an object in motion stays in motion. The blast of the SR-1 threw him/her towards the planet you see in the distance, so the Mako theory can't be true. I like the idea though and everyone applying logic/science to their theories, who wants to bet that the writers didn't apply any facts as to how shepard died? I'm sure they'll come round in ME3 and wrap it up somehow. Also keep in mind that the ME1/2 universe is set in 2183, so there must be some extreme advancements in technology/science etc.

[Whatever42]

nvm

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 18 juillet 2010 - 12:49 .

[Whatever42]

If the shields on that suit can protect you almost perfectly from several point blank blasts from a high energy weapon, it might be able to protect you from re-entry and absorb some of the impact energy when you hit the ground - especially if you hit deep snow.



However, I don't see that as the most fantastical problem here. Bringing back Shepard's body through analyzing surviving dna and replicating it is certainly conceivable. However, bringing back all his memories, something that would not be located in his DNA is a bit more interesting.



My only notion here is very fantastical. Every particle "remembers" its history, including which other particles it interacts with. This data is stored within the particle at the quantum level and some theorize not even a black hole can obliterate it and you could theoretically (although never practically) reconstruct that information from the z-radiation.



Even assuming that almost all the "material" of Shep's brain was recovered, it would likely be scrambled and decayed. Are computers in this time frame really so advanced that they could reconstruct its last intact state from the quantum information location?

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Zulu is doing a great job here - what's the problem with trying to figure out a problem with in the game's story line? To go "eh, it doesn't make sense because writers were dumb so stop trying" is depressing. If he wants to figure it out, let him.

As far-fetched as it may sound Shepard found his way into the Mako on his way down, far-fetched things happen. If he survived and there are no other options, then the far-fetched is the only believable option. It may not have been intentional, but by no means is it not retconnable. 

To accuse Zulu of trolling or being dumb is just unfair.

Hell, you all seem to get mad at the council for not believing in genocidal death machines instantly. But the far-fetched turned out to be true. So the game's story may have taken liberties with physics. No different than FTL travel or your method of communication with the Illusive Man, which pisses on actual real scientific possibility.

Modifié par PKchu, 18 juillet 2010 - 01:09 .

[Raxxman]

He'll only burn up in the atmosphere if the atmosphere has sufficient density. As you go to the crash site and need a breather, it's not a 100% certainty that the planet has enough gas surrounding it to provide the friction required to cause burn up. I can't remember the gravity of the planet either.

As for surviving the fall in one piece, it's certainly possible, people have fallen out of aircraft and lived to tell the tale, Shepard might of hit a large snow drift.

As for memory, people are still unsure as to what actually causes memory, with certain proteins being the latest citation I've read.

If that's the case then ensuring that the brain is largely intact and hasn't suffered huge amounts of degradation (bare in mind that their would be no bacterial degradation due to no/low atmosphere so it's possible. Then the mind could be gently redeveloped by careful integration of stem cells and the correct signals to rebuild the neural networks leaving the intact 'memory' proteins behind. You have to assume that Shepards head was largely intact after impact because his helmet survived the crash with only a few scratches.

Of course that's all scifi bs but you know kinda based on reality...

Modifié par Raxxman, 18 juillet 2010 - 01:19 .