252 réponses à ce sujet

[jklinders]

With great astonishment: I agree with Zulu, best theory yet. I have a great problem with reserection after brain death. Hitching a ride on the mako and hitting the jets just before hitting the ground would have been his best chance at survival. Still would have broken every bone in his body, but if a recovery team got to hom quickly his heart could still have been pumping when they put him in stasis. Extreme frostbite would have necessetated advanced tissue reconstruction and probably organ replacement and cybernetics handling the larger breaks in the bones.

Until someone comes up with a better idae I would be happy to run with this.

Appalled Shock: I agreed with Zulu on something. Must be heatstroke.

[Ninniach Lina]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If he was found 10 minutes after the oxygen shortage, he'd be of no use to TIM. No amount of fictious science could rebuild Shepard exactly as he had been.

You underestimate fictitious science.

Fictious science is ALMOST as powerful as a Wizard.

[Enfuego]

Shepard was dead when he hit the ground. His suit kept him from turning into a crispy critter, and it kept his bits all in one place for recovery. He fell in a cold place, which helped preserve his remains until they were recovered.



Lazarus project took what was left, and using his genetic blue print and a healthy dose of cybernetics, put him back together. I've no idea what the explanation is for preserving his personality intact, but that's where the exteme sci fi comes into the picture I guess.

[jklinders]

Until someone has an explanation for how brain death was surpassed, I'm not buying into the whole he was dead thing.

[Enfuego]

jklinders wrote...

Until someone has an explanation for how brain death was surpassed, I'm not buying into the whole he was dead thing.

Even though it's stated flatly within ME2 several times that he was dead?  Even though the name "Lazarus project" refers to some one being raised from the dead?

He was dead.  Sci fi hand waving explains the rest.  

[jklinders]

My suspension of disbelief does not run that deep.It will always be the stupidest piece of crap writing I have ever seen from anything if he was completely dead. There fore I accept a theory that supports a level of disbelief I am willing to accept. You don't have to feel the same way but there is a big gap here that Bioware's writers were too lazy to fill. Given no alternative and not able to come up with a better one myself Zulu's theory works for until Bioware gets off their asses and does better.

[Zulu_DFA]

jklinders wrote...
Appalled Shock: I agreed with Zulu on something. Must be heatstroke.

Yeah, bro, sh*t happens when you party naked!

Enfuego wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Until someone has an explanation for how brain death was surpassed, I'm not buying into the whole he was dead thing.

Even though it's stated flatly within ME2 several times that he was dead?  Even though the name "Lazarus project" refers to some one being raised from the dead?

He was dead.  Sci fi hand waving explains the rest.  

Hand waving is not sci fi, it's plot hole. Sci fi is sci fi only when it explains something at least on the level that "some stuff needs to be put in the thing where the stuff goes to make the thing work".

And, since you don't mention Jesus next to the Lazarus Project, like two other guys (coming from the same factory, apparently), I will not be posting the Jesus Facepalm pic this time. Instead I'll provide a link to it:

http://social.biowar...59731/3#3163947

[thegreateski]

You do not survive atmospheric reentry in a space suit.



or in a MAKO.



They don't put those heat absorbing panels on spaceships for nothing you know.

[krasnoarmeets]

I'm inclined to agree. Sci-fi hand-waving doesn't cut it here. Shepard's skeleton was indeed smashed as is evident from the x-rays during the start-up screens in ME2. With 0.8 atmospheres re-entry is still going to have a significant impact and the suit's kinetic barrier isn't going to cut it for something so intense. Hell, I doubt that the mako would be kitted out for re-entry given that every time they show the mako being dropped, the Normandy always releases it in the lower atmosphere of each planet. Genetic material being 'regenerated' I can maybe believe, but I don't see how memories/abilities could be retained after brain death given that memories are simply a collection of stored chemical patterns and electrical signals. My suspension of disbelief is pushed beyond too.

[KainrycKarr]

thegreateski wrote...

You do not survive atmospheric reentry in a space suit.

or in a MAKO.

They don't put those heat absorbing panels on spaceships for nothing you know.

Those panels are actually quite lightweight and thus it's not a far stretch to assume space-sealed suits like those worn by Alliance marines have a variation of the material built into them.

I doubt that's how Bioware thought it out, but it's just some food for though. He still absolutely would've died when he made impact though.

[jklinders]

Well what could have happened is the Mako may have been in the cargo hold as usual, then as the ship finished breaking apart on re-entry it fell separate from the rest of the wreckage. It IS fully intact on the ground after all. It is the only thing in that ship that survived intact.



I think it would be kind of sweet in the intro to ME3 if Shepard had a flashback to the last few moments of consciousness. It could be a sort of false death start up suspense horror type of thing.

[Enfuego]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


Hand waving is not sci fi, it's plot hole. Sci fi is sci fi only when it explains something at least on the level that "some stuff needs to be put in the thing where the stuff goes to make the thing work".

And, since you don't mention Jesus next to the Lazarus Project, like two other guys (coming from the same factory, apparently), I will not be posting the Jesus Facepalm pic this time. Instead I'll provide a link to it:

http://social.biowar...59731/3#3163947

We're talking about a sci fi world in which people use magic, er, "biotic power" and other magic, er, "mass effect" to accomplish feats that are, to our current understanding of the universe, flatly impossible.  To get hung up on one particular detail while accepting the rest only makes sense if that detail some how violates the internal consistency of the fictional universe.  This is basically the fundamental rule of sci fi or fantasy.  It's not supposed to match what we know to be true, it merely has to be plausible within the frame work of the fictional universe as it is presented. Because the process of the Lazarus project is left extremely vague, there is no room to poke holes.  There's no inconsistency and therefore no plot hole.   Shepard dies.  Then he's brought back to life.  Within the universe of Mass Effect, it happened.  The exact details of how it happened are left to the imagination, which I understand might be a problem for some people who lack an imagination. 

Your perception of a flaw says more about a mental limitation on your part than a defect in the story.  The fact that you'll go to such elaborate lengths to try to "explain" an inconsistency which isn't even an inconsistency is hilarious, and slightly pathetic.  Go ahead and post whatever images you want, since regurgitating the memes of others is the closest that you're going to ever come to rational discourse.  In the end, we're both playing the game and what happened, happened.  Some sort of elaborate "alternate theory" fanfic isn't going to change that.  You're wasting your limited mental energy in a fruitless endeavor.

Modifié par Enfuego, 18 juillet 2010 - 09:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Enfuego wrote...

We're talking about a sci fi world in which people use magic, er, "biotic power" and other magic, er, "mass effect" to accomplish feats that are, to our current understanding of the universe, flatly impossible. 

Strictly speaking, there is no magic in sci fi worlds. Hence, "magic", not magic.

Enfuego wrote...
To get hung up on one particular detail while accepting the rest only makes sense if that detail some how violates the internal consistency of the fictional universe.

And it is exactly what the detail in question does: it violates the internal consistency of the fictional ME universe. Or more precisely, it violates the consistensy of the real world, because the part of the real world dealing in orbital falls and brain death is not covered in ME universe by Eezo "magic". Or, it is -- by the Mako.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 juillet 2010 - 10:40 .

[smudboy]

Enfuego wrote...
We're talking about a sci fi world in which people use magic, er, "biotic power" and other magic, er, "mass effect" to accomplish feats that are, to our current understanding of the universe, flatly impossible.  To get hung up on one particular detail while accepting the rest only makes sense if that detail some how violates the internal consistency of the fictional universe.  This is basically the fundamental rule of sci fi or fantasy.  It's not supposed to match what we know to be true, it merely has to be plausible within the frame work of the fictional universe as it is presented. Because the process of the Lazarus project is left extremely vague, there is no room to poke holes.  There's no inconsistency and therefore no plot hole.   Shepard dies.  Then he's brought back to life.  Within the universe of Mass Effect, it happened.  The exact details of how it happened are left to the imagination, which I understand might be a problem for some people who lack an imagination. 

Eezo = Unobtainium, Orichalcum, Minovsky Particle, Green Rocks, etc.  We get it.

There is no "resurrection" material or some such.  I do not believe they used Eezo in Shepard's resurrection, nor was it specifically implied.

Because there are holes, questions are raised.  What, you simply bought that Shepard was resurrected because of some audio logs, and 2 years went by, and the spent billions?  Well good for you.  The rest of the people with attention spans and intelligence who know a thing or two about...basic science and biology, didn't.

Your perception of a flaw says more about a mental limitation on your part than a defect in the story.  The fact that you'll go to such elaborate lengths to try to "explain" an inconsistency which isn't even an inconsistency is hilarious, and slightly pathetic.  Go ahead and post whatever images you want, since regurgitating the memes of others is the closest that you're going to ever come to rational discourse.  In the end, we're both playing the game and what happened, happened.  Some sort of elaborate "alternate theory" fanfic isn't going to change that.  You're wasting your limited mental energy in a fruitless endeavor.

Um, the perceptio nof any one allows some degree of cognition, vision and intelligence.  I dont' see how any perception, even a false one, would imply a "mental limitation" on an observer or perceiver.  That is like...what, Epistemology 101?  Mind you some perceptions are indeed false, but they're first based on physical evidence, then retarded by imagination or some bias that warps the perception.

Zuli's theory that Shepard somehow managed to keep his body in tact by managing to get to the Mako...hey, why not?  It's better than Miranda rambling about Sub-zero temperatures (try absolute zero temperatures) and some kind of cybernetic jargon doesn't tell us jack.  The fact that it's ambiguous raises the questions, and hence, we are forced to construct what the hell could've caused this to occur.  Zulu made a a few simple observations, and put two and two together.

You come in and attack his perceptions, then call him unintelligent.  The fact that the game didn't explain it, and you didn't, yet Zulu at least tried where you failed, begs the question on just what intelligence it is you perceive from the narrative to answer the question: or can you even perceive the question?

[MadInfiltrator]

smudboy wrote...

Enfuego wrote...
We're talking about a sci fi world in which people use magic, er, "biotic power" and other magic, er, "mass effect" to accomplish feats that are, to our current understanding of the universe, flatly impossible.  To get hung up on one particular detail while accepting the rest only makes sense if that detail some how violates the internal consistency of the fictional universe.  This is basically the fundamental rule of sci fi or fantasy.  It's not supposed to match what we know to be true, it merely has to be plausible within the frame work of the fictional universe as it is presented. Because the process of the Lazarus project is left extremely vague, there is no room to poke holes.  There's no inconsistency and therefore no plot hole.   Shepard dies.  Then he's brought back to life.  Within the universe of Mass Effect, it happened.  The exact details of how it happened are left to the imagination, which I understand might be a problem for some people who lack an imagination. 

Eezo = Unobtainium, Orichalcum, Minovsky Particle, Green Rocks, etc.  We get it.

There is no "resurrection" material or some such.  I do not believe they used Eezo in Shepard's resurrection, nor was it specifically implied.

Because there are holes, questions are raised.  What, you simply bought that Shepard was resurrected because of some audio logs, and 2 years went by, and the spent billions?  Well good for you.  The rest of the people with attention spans and intelligence who know a thing or two about...basic science and biology, didn't.

Your perception of a flaw says more about a mental limitation on your part than a defect in the story.  The fact that you'll go to such elaborate lengths to try to "explain" an inconsistency which isn't even an inconsistency is hilarious, and slightly pathetic.  Go ahead and post whatever images you want, since regurgitating the memes of others is the closest that you're going to ever come to rational discourse.  In the end, we're both playing the game and what happened, happened.  Some sort of elaborate "alternate theory" fanfic isn't going to change that.  You're wasting your limited mental energy in a fruitless endeavor.

Um, the perceptio nof any one allows some degree of cognition, vision and intelligence.  I dont' see how any perception, even a false one, would imply a "mental limitation" on an observer or perceiver.  That is like...what, Epistemology 101?  Mind you some perceptions are indeed false, but they're first based on physical evidence, then retarded by imagination or some bias that warps the perception.

Zuli's theory that Shepard somehow managed to keep his body in tact by managing to get to the Mako...hey, why not?  It's better than Miranda rambling about Sub-zero temperatures (try absolute zero temperatures) and some kind of cybernetic jargon doesn't tell us jack.  The fact that it's ambiguous raises the questions, and hence, we are forced to construct what the hell could've caused this to occur.  Zulu made a a few simple observations, and put two and two together.

You come in and attack his perceptions, then call him unintelligent.  The fact that the game didn't explain it, and you didn't, yet Zulu at least tried where you failed, begs the question on just what intelligence it is you perceive from the narrative to answer the question: or can you even perceive the question?

The fact of the matter is, is that the developers know it's BS. And they leave it up to us to either decide or not bother. There is obviously no definitive answer, and even if the developers gave us one, then it would be completely false. They are letting us either make up our own minds, or not make up anything at all. To say someone's hypothesis is incorrect is redundant. We're faced with a situation where
- It is left open, for a reason
- Technically any answer is wrong
- So every answer is also right
To each, there own. And the fact that you cannot create a way to prove your own point means it is impossible txo disprove others.

Smudboy is right, Zulu's idea is perfectly legitimate in this situation, and I actually think it's a pretty good one.

Modifié par MadInfiltrator, 18 juillet 2010 - 11:45 .

[lovgreno]

thegreateski wrote...

You do not survive atmospheric reentry in a space suit.

or in a MAKO.

They don't put those heat absorbing panels on spaceships for nothing you know.

Actualy the Mako have some impressive armour considering what extreme things are thrown at it without killing it. Things like thresher maw superacid, autocannon fire, anti tank missiles, huge plasma fireballs etc.
Add to this great shields and thrusters to slow down the fall speed and we may have a rather good improvised landing vessel.

So, while there may of course be other ways to land kind of safely I support the MAKO theory.

[krasnoarmeets]

Actually one good hit from thresher maw acid pretty much takes the mako out, which bypasses the kinetic barriers anyway.... direct acid hit = mako all red.

[RiouHotaru]

Does anyone stop to think that MAYBE medical science has advanced to the point where the issue of brain-death is no longer an issue? Besides, does it honestly matter whether or not Shepard was clinically dead or not? I mean, Zulu's theory is plausible, but it's also just as likely that Cerberus is JUST THAT GOOD (at science anyway).



Or Bioware is just handwaving, which in my mind is perfectly acceptable. It's a fairly minor plot point anyway.

[ADLegend21]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Does anyone stop to think that MAYBE medical science has advanced to the point where the issue of brain-death is no longer an issue? Besides, does it honestly matter whether or not Shepard was clinically dead or not? I mean, Zulu's theory is plausible, but it's also just as likely that Cerberus is JUST THAT GOOD (at science anyway).

Or Bioware is just handwaving, which in my mind is perfectly acceptable. It's a fairly minor plot point anyway.

^This. it's over 150 years fromour time, plus they legthened the average human lifetime to 150 that's longer than the MAXIMUM lifetime reached currently so I'm guessing the oldest human could probably be about 200 years old. if you can make a human live for 200 years (300 in miranda's case if Old age is her cause of death) AND you can clone human tissue and it be functional, then I'm guessing with time and resources you could bring someone back from the dead.

[The Unfallen]

I think...









...you have put too much thought into this and have no life.



=P

[thegreateski]

lovgreno wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

You do not survive atmospheric reentry in a space suit.

or in a MAKO.

They don't put those heat absorbing panels on spaceships for nothing you know.

Actualy the Mako have some impressive armour considering what extreme things are thrown at it without killing it. Things like thresher maw superacid, autocannon fire, anti tank missiles, huge plasma fireballs etc.
Add to this great shields and thrusters to slow down the fall speed and we may have a rather good improvised landing vessel.

So, while there may of course be other ways to land kind of safely I support the MAKO theory.

Sadly the MAKO does not protect against heat.

The lava pits in ME1 say as much.
-------------------
I have an answer to the loss of brain functions as well.

The VIs in the game are usually based off of some historic figure's personality. They use brain imprints to give them said personality (Vigil on Ilos). The odds of Shepard having a personality imprint from before his death are very high.

He is a galactic hero after all.

Modifié par thegreateski, 19 juillet 2010 - 02:54 .

[smudboy]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Does anyone stop to think that MAYBE medical science has advanced to the point where the issue of brain-death is no longer an issue? Besides, does it honestly matter whether or not Shepard was clinically dead or not? I mean, Zulu's theory is plausible, but it's also just as likely that Cerberus is JUST THAT GOOD (at science anyway).

Or Bioware is just handwaving, which in my mind is perfectly acceptable. It's a fairly minor plot point anyway.

1. If it is, it wasn't mentioned or shown
2. If medical science has advanced to the point where the issue of brain-death is no longer an issue, you'd have clinical immortality.
3. It does honestly matter because we have no idea a) how Shepard died, how Shepard got rebuilt/resurrected
4. It is possible, though highly unlikely given the time and circumstances of Shepard's rebirth (Wilson's behavior comes to mind.)
5. Handwaving is sometimes acceptable, but not in the first 10 minutes, dealing with the theme of resurrection, turning out hero into a Cyber Savior, for the Good of the Plot.  This is not a minor plot point.  This is one of the biggest plot holes of the story.  It's as if the writers had no clue what to do for a sequel, restarted everything, then didn't bother to explain anything.  All aboard the CerberBus.

[KainrycKarr]

Again. The space shuttle has lightweight panneling that protects against the heat from atmospheric entry. It's not farfetched to think this far into the future that kind of material isn't commonplace in dropships, armor, etc.



So if he did get into the mako, i find the whole thing perfectly believable.

[thegreateski]

Sadly we have no info on the composition of the MAKO's armor . . .

[ADLegend21]

Smud Shepard dies because their oxygen runs out remember they struggle to keep the Oxygen from leaving the suit thenit dies down and the sad Piano music plays, hten the Logo shows up for Mass Effect 2. the medical science advancement is mentioned in the human codex entry for earth.