138 réponses à ce sujet

[Loki330]

-ßeta- wrote...

He was a slave to his own jealousy and envy. That is my opinion.

Or a Xanatos Gambit to get you to trust Miranda and Cerberus more easily. After all, she's being to be your 'handler' for an organisation that you've fought (and in Sole Survivor's case probably hate). Nothing like a bit of fighting to protect you to help win you over.

Plus it helps tie up the loose ends of all those staff that could be potential security risks.

[lovgreno]

Loki330 wrote...
Or a Xanatos Gambit to get you to trust Miranda and Cerberus more easily. After all, she's being to be your 'handler' for an organisation that you've fought (and in Sole Survivor's case probably hate). Nothing like a bit of fighting to protect you to help win you over.

Plus it helps tie up the loose ends of all those staff that could be potential security risks.

While a complicated manipulative and ruthless gamble like that would probably be a very Cerberus thing to do it could just as well have killed Shepard. Wasting resources is something Cerberus often does but that would probably be to take things too far.

[Loki330]

They're security driods though; they're hardly Geth or anything Shepard can't handle.

[lovgreno]

Good point. Also it was a little suspicious that the realy dangerous YMIR mechs never crossed Shepards path.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

For the Shadow Broker. He wanted to sell a fully functional Shepard to the Shadow Broker for many much cash.

TIM uncovered his plan, and ordered Miranda to eliminate the conspiracy and cover all up.

She started the mechs.

It was also a planned live fire exercise for Shepard. And a very bad surprise for Wilson and his possible accomplices.

CASE CLOSED.

Way to abuse your employees' trust, Illusive Man.

[smudboy]

Loki330 wrote...

-ßeta- wrote...

He was a slave to his own jealousy and envy. That is my opinion.

Or a Xanatos Gambit to get you to trust Miranda and Cerberus more easily. After all, she's being to be your 'handler' for an organisation that you've fought (and in Sole Survivor's case probably hate). Nothing like a bit of fighting to protect you to help win you over.

Plus it helps tie up the loose ends of all those staff that could be potential security risks.

What?  Where's the gambit?  Cerberus brought Shepard back from the dead (+1).  Another Cerberus operative tried to kill Shepard (-1).  If you want someone to trust Cerberus, you don't try to kill them.  At this point Shepard would be even more highly suspectful of everyone Cerberus.  Except he wasn't because the plot said so.

[Ecael]

smudboy wrote...

Loki330 wrote...

-ßeta- wrote...

He was a slave to his own jealousy and envy. That is my opinion.

Or a Xanatos Gambit to get you to trust Miranda and Cerberus more easily. After all, she's being to be your 'handler' for an organisation that you've fought (and in Sole Survivor's case probably hate). Nothing like a bit of fighting to protect you to help win you over.

Plus it helps tie up the loose ends of all those staff that could be potential security risks.

What?  Where's the gambit?  Cerberus brought Shepard back from the dead (+1).  Another Cerberus operative tried to kill Shepard (-1).  If you want someone to trust Cerberus, you don't try to kill them.  At this point Shepard would be even more highly suspectful of everyone Cerberus.  Except he wasn't because the plot said so.

Well, another Cerberus operative also killed the Cerberus operative trying to kill him, so...

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...
Well, another Cerberus operative also killed the Cerberus operative trying to kill him, so...

Oh great.  I'm surrounded by murderers.  What a wonderful group this Cerberus is.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Wilsons job was to warn certain players early on of the kind of garbage writing ME2 would put forward to support the new improved amped up in intensity shooter gameplay that engages your emotions with how much more fluid it is.

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Well, another Cerberus operative also killed the Cerberus operative trying to kill him, so...

Oh great.  I'm surrounded by murderers.  What a wonderful group this Cerberus is.

Mass Effect should have been called Mass Murder Effect in the first place. Cerberus is not even outstanding at this.

And the plot doesn't say that Shepard trusts Cerbererus. It's up to the player to decide, whether Shepard trusts them or not. What the plot does say, is that Shepard isn't a type that walks away from fighting the Reapers just because he may not trust the only group that provides to him the opportunity to do his part.

[Images]

smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Well, another Cerberus operative also killed the Cerberus operative trying to kill him, so...

Oh great.  I'm surrounded by murderers. 

Well ya kinda were with DA as well. Zevran and Leliana had both worked as assassins, Sten murdered a whole family of farmers in a hissy fit, Morrigan participated in luring bunches of people to her mother and certain death. Even your shopkeep admitted to being nothing better than a down and dirty graverobber. Oh and Duncan dd brutally stab a soon to be father who just wanted to get home to his wife. Yet you were still the hero there. A hero is cooler when he/she is a diamond in the rough

[C9316]

Darc_Requiem wrote...

Just_mike wrote...

Darc_Requiem wrote...

Mukora wrote...

-ßeta- wrote...

He was a slave to his own jealousy and envy. That is my opinion.

True enough. But, you have to admit, his voice was awesome.

Yeah, well he is Gorim from Dragon Age.

I thought he was the voice actor for Solid Snake or Guilmon.

I just looked it up to double check and not only is Gorim from DA, but he is Grunt as well as Wilson. Steve Blum rocks.

Isn't steve blum also Oghren?

[Ecael]

C9316 wrote...

Darc_Requiem wrote...

I just looked it up to double check and not only is Gorim from DA, but he is Grunt as well as Wilson. Steve Blum rocks.

Isn't steve blum also Oghren?

Yes. Steven Blum is just about everyone.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0089710/

[Arijharn]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I got addicted to Alpha Protocol for a bit.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And this does not make any sense at all. As I said, if Miranda believed Wilson was a traitor, there was no element of surprise. Instead of shhoting him in the face, she could hav shot him in the knee caps, or tear his hands of with biotics, or incapacitate him in any numver of ways. At that point wilson had no chance. He knew it the moment he saw Miranda, because being a smart guy, afterall, he correctly pinned her down as source of the mech attach.

The Hard Evidence; think things through, if you were Wilson you wouldn't give a flying **** about Miranda when you're looking at Jacob and Shephard (i.e., Miranda is no where to be seen, or you could be giving it an idle thought, but she isn't exactly your priority). As Hard Evidence, he thinks at the moment that she was 'dropped by mechs over at D wing... which doesn't make much sense really since Jacob and Shephard apparently just came from there, but that is irrelevant.

The Hard Evidence seems to be that I'm not disputing the fact that Wilson isn't a traitor, I'm merely disputing the fact that you're automatically assuming he had Shadow Broker support (Cerberus Command complicity). Wilson can be a traitor without the complicity of the Shadow Broker (Cerberus Command complicity - copy and paste is fun!), and the Hard Evidence for that is like yours, supposition (which isn't Hard Evidence at all!). Hard Evidence doesn't fit into this sentence well either, but it makes even less sense for The Illusive Man to set up the mass killings on the Lazarus Cell for the simple fact that it doesn't really fit into his modus operandi; TIM doesn't set out to kill people (through his scientific endeavours)... people may grow on trees (figuratively speaking of course... imagine the amount of humans in the Mass Effect universe, trillions? tens of trillions?) but not necessarily scientists who are willing to work for Cerberus.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Jacob got suspicious of Wilson for a moment, but Wilson managed to quell this, and for the good reason: he was not the one who masterminded the mayham. The only thing he forgot to mention, was that he was a traitor indded. His plan was to wait until Shepard is complete (another couple of days), then give the "package" away to the Shadow Broker, while it would have beed in transit. So when Jacob said on the radio, that Shepard is alive, Wilson decided to stick to the plan - put Shepard on a shuttle and rendevoux with the Shadow Broker's agents. He could have hoped to get Jacob from behind by surprise, or simply relied on a squad of the Blue Suns armed to the teeth that would accompany the Shadow Brokers agent (Cerberus complicity).

To me, the Hard Evidence was only that Wilson expressed shock that Shephard was still alive. Also to consider for Hard Evidence is that if Shephard awoke considerably earlier than projected, it could of affected Wilson's schedule (whatever it is). To be honest, I don't think you're plan isn't likely, I just eyebrow raised at your notion that it's automatically cut-n-dried (no Hard Evidence in that sentence, oh wait!). 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Inflicting a wound on youself in the circumstances when a very confined place is crawling with hostile machinery is just to prove you're a good guy is a bit implausible. More likely you'll shoot yourself in the head out of dispair.

I can't really make Hard Evidence fit into this sentence but here you go; it isn't implausible, it is however ill-advised. The 'Hard Evidence' (at least, how you'd define it) is when Wilson says: "I was shot how can you explain that" (or words to that effect) when as you say; Jacob questions why he even has access to the security mech system. I would suggest the Hard Evidence being is that you don't exactly know when Wilson 'fried the system' meaning that he had plenty of time to look up their locations, or perhaps they were 'off' before Wilson turned them 'on' to bust through the door (you never actually read the computer system, and that's the Hard Evidence! - you're just taking him at his 'word.') Hard Evidence? It sure is convenient that the Loki's only come through the opposite door when Wilson gets his medi-gel fix! Also speaking from the whole 'Hard Evidence' angle, providing that the Shadow Broker was only interested in Shephard in regards to selling him/her to the Collectors, it wouldn't matter what state that the Commander arrives. 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Wilson may be a greedy and lusty SOB, and even a bit crazy (in the mad scientist sense), but he was no fool. Killing Shepard with a risk to his own healh could not be his goal.

Lets just say that the Hard Evidence of what I said was that you're confusing my intent when I said kill and incapacitate. I'll spell it out this time. Kill Jacob (useless), Incapacitate Shephard (useful). Hard Evidence suggests that there is plenty of ways to incapacitate someone, even Shephard, and Wilson can do all of this without Shadow Broker's involvement/support (and Cerberus Command complicity).

Zulu_DFA wrote...So, unless you come up with a better explanation (preferably with "hard evidence" in every sentnence [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]) for what happened on the Lazarus station, the case remains closed and archived.

For what it's worth, did I successfully use 'Hard Evidence' in every sentence? Personally I believe these things:
a) Wilson is definitely a traitor.
Wilson is involved with the Shadow Broker.
c) Cerberus Command isn't complicit (Byzantine way of 'cleaning up the project' and outing any rogue agents seems like a waste of resources... Cerberus needs 'secret police' for their 'secret status')
d) Miranda's 'field test' comment was a figure of speech considering that's exactly what it turned out to be, not necessarily their initial intent.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

For what it's worth, did I successfully use 'Hard Evidence' in every sentence? Personally I believe these things:
a) Wilson is definitely a traitor.
Wilson is involved with the Shadow Broker.
c) Cerberus Command isn't complicit (Byzantine way of 'cleaning up the project' and outing any rogue agents seems like a waste of resources... Cerberus needs 'secret police' for their 'secret status')
d) Miranda's 'field test' comment was a figure of speech considering that's exactly what it turned out to be, not necessarily their initial intent.

So we do agree on 3 points out of 4. I even admitted that Miranda's comment can't be considered as more than a hint.

As "hard evidence" I use only her shooting Wilson in the face instead of the knee caps. It proves Cerberus did not need to interrogate Wilson to uncover the conspiracy. Which means that the conspiracy had been uncovered earlier and even verified in every detail that might be of interest to TIM. Which means Cerberus executed some sort of preemptive measures to prevent the conspiracy from coming to fruition. And nothing but the mech attack looks like it, especially if you take its outcome into account.

Now, to the little points of your doubt:

1. Cerberus did not have to waste many good people on the station. With the Lazarus project being almost complete, the main science team was withdrawn from the station. Then, Miranda could have timed the attack so that many security and maintenance personnel that were left on the station and verified as not involved in the conspiracy, were able to reach the shuttle bay and evecuate immediately after the attack started. You don't see that many bodies of Cerberus personnel on your way. So the most of the fallen are in fact Wilson and his suspected accomplices. Some may have been transfered from other cells and sites specifially to die heroes for some other sins. So the loss of human resources is minimal. And, as you may have noticed, the station does not blow up as you fly away? Why? because Miranda set a timer to decompess and cut power to the systems, and when the mechs deactivate in a couple of days, a salvage team will arrive and reclaim and repurpose the station.

2. If Shepard was accidentally killed in the attack and burned to ashes, that would invalidate the deal with the Shadow Broker. Besides, it's obvious that the Collectors and therefore the Shadow Broker were interested in capturing Shepard alive. His DNA they probably could have acquired already in the course of the past two years in a number of ways, including Wilson.

3. Wilson's reaction to the news that Shepard is alive means: he thought that most probably Shepard was killed in the attack, and so he, Wilson, has no hope of collecting his promised fortune, and is a fair game even for the Shadow Broke now. But since Shepard was alive, he could procede with his plan: get Shepard to the shuttles, and head straignt for the rendevouz with the Shadow Broker's agents. He could even hope to fool Jacob into compliance instead of having to dispose of him.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 mai 2010 - 04:39 .

[Sajuro]

Zavrian wrote...

So, who was he working for?  The Collectors?  The Shadow Broker?

He worked for Bioware

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Cerberus did not have to waste many good people on the station. With the Lazarus project being almost complete, the main science team was withdrawn from the station. Then, Miranda could have timed the attack so that many security and maintenance personnel that were left on the station and verified as not involved in the conspiracy, were able to reach the shuttle bay and evecuate immediately after the attack started. You don't see that many bodies of Cerberus personnel on your way. So the most of the fallen are in fact Wilson and his suspected accomplices. Some may have been transfered from other cells and sites specifially to die heroes for some other sins. So the loss of human resources is minimal. And, as you may have noticed, the station does not blow up as you fly away? Why? because Miranda set a timer to decompess and cut power to the systems, and when the mechs deactivate in a couple of days, a salvage team will arrive and reclaim and repurpose the station.

This is pure supposition, while it's true that you don't see so many bodies that they lie across the ground like some grizzly carpet, you do see more than a few (6-9?) but you also don't explore the  entire station (and some of those workers wear the 'officer' type dress, it's highly unlikely that all of those are 'maintenance workers'. It's impossible to draw any real conclusions from this. Also, I suggest you read the 'mission complete' screen on finishing this mission because it says that the base was destroyed via 'remote detonation.'

Zulu_DFA wrote...
2. If Shepard was accidentally killed in the attack and burned to ashes, that would invalidate the deal with the Shadow Broker. Besides, it's obvious that the Collectors and therefore the Shadow Broker were interested in capturing Shepard alive. His DNA they probably could have acquired already in the course of the past two years in a number of ways, including Wilson.

It can't be 'essential' that they return Shephard 'alive' to the Collectors for the simple reason that the Collector's were searching for his body when he was deceased. They don't seem to care one way or the other just as long as Shephard is retrieved. 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
3. Wilson's reaction to the news that Shepard is alive means: he thought that most probably Shepard was killed in the attack, and so he, Wilson, has no hope of collecting his promised fortune, and is a fair game even for the Shadow Broke now. But since Shepard was alive, he could procede with his plan: get Shepard to the shuttles, and head straignt for the rendevouz with the Shadow Broker's agents. He could even hope to fool Jacob into compliance instead of having to dispose of him.

This could mean any number of things, for all we know Wilson probably considered it possible to capture him alive (but unconcious) as potentially preferable, but in no way was it essential, as past events have seen. While I don't think Jacob is the sharpest tool in the shed it's obvious that he has loyalties to Miranda (how he cares a torch for her) and I have severe doubts that Wilson could just 'win him over.'

Also, I'm disappointed that you didn't commend my usage of hard evidence in every sentence I thought that was worth at least a cookie.

[Xenomorphwut]

Cerberus operatives shot wilson, there is a pile of 3=4 of them 5 ft. away.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...
Also, I'm disappointed that you didn't commend my usage of hard evidence in every sentence I thought that was worth at least a cookie.

I said "hard evidence" for a better theory. No theory, no cookie. The theory must explain the fact that Miranda killed Wilson, instead of incapacitting him and hauling for interrogation.

[Arijharn]

The theory is that there is no real reason why interrogating him is a better option than just killing him. What's the point, he's a traitor? Who care's who he's betraying Cerberus too?

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

The theory is that there is no real reason why interrogating him is a better option than just killing him. What's the point, he's a traitor? Who care's who he's betraying Cerberus too?

Sorry, man. that's just stupid. That's not KGB's modus operandi. That's not Italian Mafia modus's operandi. That's not Cardinal Richelieu's modus operandi. That can't be Cerberus's modus operandi. A traitor is to be thoroughly interrogated, especially when the defection is all news to you, or you just asking for a new defection ASAP.

Also it might actually help, if you pretend for one moment to be TIM, and try to think the situation over from his standpoint, then, for another moment put yourself in Wilson's shoes... It's RPG, afterall.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mai 2010 - 03:59 .

[Arijharn]

My point is is that Wilson is entirely by himself (and you can make that judgement by listening to his logs throughout the introduction... at least, I never thought he could possibly be working with others). Think about it, wouldn't it be 'suspicious' at least as to why in your theory there's a lot of people suddenly being redeployed/disappearing?



He doesn't have information that they don't have and I'm going to make the assumption that if Cerberus' intelligence gathering capabilities are roughly the same as the Shadow Brokers (as is implied) then Wilson has no information that Cerberus wants because

A) If the Shadow Broker doesn't get Shephard (alive or dead) then they are no threat.

Cerberus is incredibly mobile, even if Wilson surreptiously passed on information about where the Lazarus project is located then it's meaningless to attack it, even under the auspicies of the Blue Suns/whatever because they have considerable defenses (and it's pointless to speculate on this further for the simple fact that it wasn't the Blue Suns/agents of the Shadow Broker who attacked... short of Wilson).

C) Dead men tell no tales.

[KalosCast]

Arijharn wrote...


A) If the Shadow Broker doesn't get Shephard (alive or dead) then they are no threat.
Cerberus is incredibly mobile, even if Wilson surreptiously passed on information about where the Lazarus project is located then it's meaningless to attack it, even under the auspicies of the Blue Suns/whatever because they have considerable defenses (and it's pointless to speculate on this further for the simple fact that it wasn't the Blue Suns/agents of the Shadow Broker who attacked... short of Wilson).
C) Dead men tell no tales.

A) Yeah, easily one of the richest and most politically powerful people in the galaxy are no threat if their plan fails the first (second?) time. They'll immediately give up after that regardless of the circumstances involved.
How are they mobile? Theyr'e compartmentalized, but the Lazarus Project is the first (and last) Cerberus outpost you see that's not a planet-side bunker.
C) Dead men also can't tell you the important information, like why they tried to sabotage the single most expensive and important project in literally the entire Milky Way.