138 réponses à ce sujet

[Draconis6666]

after multiple play-throughs and serious thought on the matter I am now almost 90% sure that wilson did what he did because the Illusive Man told him to because the Illusive man wanted a "live fire" test of Shepard's abilities, then he hung wilson out to dry after he didn't need him anymore and just swept the whole fact that it happened at all under the rug as much as possible which is why it is never mentioned again and the Illusive Man makes no attempts to discover why Wilson betrayed him.

[KalosCast]

Draconis6666 wrote...

after multiple play-throughs and serious thought on the matter I am now almost 90% sure that wilson did what he did because the Illusive Man told him to because the Illusive man wanted a "live fire" test of Shepard's abilities, then he hung wilson out to dry after he didn't need him anymore and just swept the whole fact that it happened at all under the rug as much as possible which is why it is never mentioned again and the Illusive Man makes no attempts to discover why Wilson betrayed him.

Any evidence of this other than the lack of apparent investigation? Since that's equally attributable to "gaping plot hole" as well.

[Draconis6666]

Nothing ironclad i guess, just lots of little things added together that point towards it being a possibility that make me think its likely. Things like the Ymir mechs not being positioned anywhere between shepard and the escape shuttles, The overall lack of serious resistance between the escape shuttle and shepards starting location. The fact that if the goal of the attack was actually to kill shepard then why was their no serious attempt to kill him before he woke, something obviously killed the Cerberus crew near where he wakes up since there is one dead in the door ways and it obviously didn't happen after you woke up since you hear no nearby fighting. Why then is the closest mech just kind of standing around on the stairs two rooms away and not really making any attempt to get to you. Add that with the Illusive Man's general attitude and his clear lack of any negative feelings whatsoever on sacrificing cerberus personal etc...

[KalosCast]

Draconis6666 wrote...

Nothing ironclad i guess, just lots of little things added together that point towards it being a possibility that make me think its likely. Things like the Ymir mechs not being positioned anywhere between shepard and the escape shuttles, The overall lack of serious resistance between the escape shuttle and shepards starting location. The fact that if the goal of the attack was actually to kill shepard then why was their no serious attempt to kill him before he woke, something obviously killed the Cerberus crew near where he wakes up since there is one dead in the door ways and it obviously didn't happen after you woke up since you hear no nearby fighting. Why then is the closest mech just kind of standing around on the stairs two rooms away and not really making any attempt to get to you. Add that with the Illusive Man's general attitude and his clear lack of any negative feelings whatsoever on sacrificing cerberus personal etc...

The lack of resistance I'd chalk up to game design. It's the starting mission, kind of like how you meet the easy to kill but "specialized deployment" Geth drones before meeting the Geth soldier platforms in ME1. Plus it lets them set up the YMIR mech as a boss at Freedom's Progress.

Also, Wilson was trying to take out a whole station with these bastards, since ~10 ****** AI mercs can take one out without any cover to speak of in Archangel's mission even in Insanity, one can assume that Wilson used them to focus on the guards, and not the dude who woke up from a 2 year nap and his bland buddy Shep can use to exclaim "I have black friends!" if someone calls him out on a racist joke.

And WIlson might have made sure no YMIR mechs were in the way so he could escape on his own, but then plans changed when he got shot.

Modifié par KalosCast, 30 mai 2010 - 09:44 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

My point is is that Wilson is entirely by himself (and you can make that judgement by listening to his logs throughout the introduction... at least, I never thought he could possibly be working with others). Think about it, wouldn't it be 'suspicious' at least as to why in your theory there's a lot of people suddenly being redeployed/disappearing?

So Wilson did it for TEH LULZ?

And no, staff withdrawal would not be suspicious, because the project was near its end. The bulk of the suppost crew could be set to evacuate immediately after the beginning of the attack. With such thing as a spase station, you can easily predict the location of everyone at any given point of time. Jacob was intentionally "left behind" to assist Shepard. All traitors and suspicious peolple were lef behind to die in the attack. Wilson made his best and it looked almost like he beat the all odds. But for Miranda.
Anyway the possiblity to keep the casualty toll of loyal personnel to acceptable level(by Cerberus standards), was present.

KalosCast wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
A) If the Shadow Broker doesn't get Shephard (alive or dead) then they are no threat.
Cerberus is incredibly mobile, even if Wilson surreptiously passed on information about where the Lazarus project is located then it's meaningless to attack it, even under the auspicies of the Blue Suns/whatever because they have considerable defenses (and it's pointless to speculate on this further for the simple fact that it wasn't the Blue Suns/agents of the Shadow Broker who attacked... short of Wilson).
C) Dead men tell no tales.

A) Yeah, easily one of the richest and most politically powerful people in the galaxy are no threat if their plan fails the first (second?) time. They'll immediately give up after that regardless of the circumstances involved.
How are they mobile? Theyr'e compartmentalized, but the Lazarus Project is the first (and last) Cerberus outpost you see that's not a planet-side bunker.
C) Dead men also can't tell you the important information, like why they tried to sabotage the single most expensive and important project in literally the entire Milky Way.

Pretty much this. And I don't say TIM would spare Wilson's life. But Wilson must have been interrogated before execution, unless there was really nothing new he could tell.

Draconis6666 wrote...
after multiple play-throughs and serious thought on the matter I am now almost 90% sure that wilson did what he did because the Illusive Man told him to because the Illusive man wanted a "live fire" test of Shepard's abilities, then he hung wilson out to dry after he didn't need him anymore and just swept the whole fact that it happened at all under the rug as much as possible which is why it is never mentioned again and the Illusive Man makes no attempts to discover why Wilson betrayed him.

Why would TIM do that through Wilson and not through Miranda? I suppose he can count on her keeping the mouth shut. Until the story with Oriana she is obviously more loyal to TIM than to you. And if the truth about the attack finally slips to Shepard, why would it matter, especially after the Collector Ship "trap".
One thing about TIM is that he runs his reality shows without the consent of the participants, which makes him a very scary person indeed.  Shepard can accept that as a fact of life and, or mistake "scary" for "bad" and "evil".

Wilson did not have security clearence to access the "Server Room B". And that makes his story quite plausible, about how he came there after the mech attack started in an attemt to stop it. Especially since that's exactly what you would do, if you were cut off from the shuttles.

[prizm123]

[/quote]

Well we have seen stories and movies were people have shot themselves to avoid suspicion, and who is to say the robots were gunning after Wilson? we only see them attack after we enter the room he is in so teaming up with Shepard again avoids suspicion (once we were on the shuttle he could have killed/incapacated the team then off to the Shadow Broker) plus even Jacob said "Can you lead us into a room "Without" all these mechs?" which is also rather suspicious, then there was the stuff about Wilson not having clearance to the computers in that area and all that as well as now robots working or destroyed in the room he was in despite the fact he was yelling that they found him.

[/quote]

wilson activated and reprogrammed the mechs, his reaction to tell Jacob why he had clearance seems a little too rehearsed, his injury was not that bad and could have been self inflicted to throw off suspicion, his surprise that Shep was alive was telling, he expected that the mechs in the medical bay where shep was at would kill Shep before he or she woke up, and the fact that he was quick to try and blame/discredit/abandon Miranda points to someone with an agenda, whether he was working for the SB or not is still in question, but frankly all Miranda knew was that he set up the mechs and tried to kill everyone, and the look on her face indicates she was >pissed<, hence she shot him in the face before asking questions

[Xenomorphwut]

^after all she's not perfect...

[Zulu_DFA]

prizm123 wrote...

(once we were on the shuttle he could have killed/incapacated the team then off to the Shadow Broker)

And with what package would Wilson go to the Shadow Broker go, if his supposed initial plan to tear the station apart with mechs succeeded?

You people are so naive. You don't trust TIM, but trust Miranda? Lol!

prizm123 wrote...

the look on her face indicates she was >pissed<, hence she shot him in the face before asking questions

And that's unprofessional. TIM would at least comment on that, but he didn't.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mai 2010 - 01:48 .

[searanox]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Hard evidence: Miranda killed Wilson on sight. Her petty excuses, that it was dangerous to keep him alive were pathetic. Three able bodied soldiers (at least two biotics) against one wounded doctor? She could have shot him in the knee-caps, knocked unconscious and haul for interrogation. It's standard procedure: you don't dispose of the traitor before you know who he works for, and who else is the rat. But apparently there was no need. Because, everything about Wilson's defection was already known. Perhaps one of Wilson's accomplices gave it all away.

Replay the first mission with this explanation in mind, and you'll be surprised how well everything adds up, including Wilson's panicking voice when he first comes in on the radio.

Or, if you have a better one, I can't wait to read it!

It's a good theory, but frankly I think Wilson was just stupid; what he didn't is inconsistent with the character we are made to assume he is, but we see so little of him that it's hard to judge if he'd been planning going rogue on Cerberus and escaping for some time, or just snapped.

As for Miranda shooting him, well, BioWare basically needed a way to establish her as an LOL SRS ACTION GURL and a stone-cold **** who always has to be right.  Having her kill someone in front of Shepard with tenuous evidence at best is a decent way of doing it, even though we never really see that side of her again until the endgame, where she once again becomes a snooty **** because the writer had forgotten about her during the rest of the story.  I don't blame him, really, Miranda is about as interesting a character as a slab of granite.

Modifié par searanox, 30 mai 2010 - 01:57 .

[LiquidGrape]

Poor writing.

Moving on.

[prizm123]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And that's unprofessional. TIM would at least comment on that, but he didn't.

actually, he did, he said she was right to do what she did

[Zulu_DFA]

prizm123 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And that's unprofessional. TIM would at least comment on that, but he didn't.

actually, he did, he said she was right to do what she did

This proves he had full details of Wilson's conspiracy beforehand. I can't imagine TIM approving of unprofessionalism.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mai 2010 - 03:00 .

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

prizm123 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And that's unprofessional. TIM would at least comment on that, but he didn't.

actually, he did, he said she was right to do what she did

This proves he had full details of Wilson's conspiracy beforehand. I can't imagine TIM approving of unprofessionalism.

How?

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

prizm123 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And that's unprofessional. TIM would at least comment on that, but he didn't.

actually, he did, he said she was right to do what she did

This proves he had full details of Wilson's conspiracy beforehand. I can't imagine TIM approving of unprofessionalism.

How?

If he didn't have full details, he would suspend Miranda from duty due to unprofessionalism.

Miranda isn't TIM's "fire-and-forget" system. She admits it herself TIM was fully controlling the Lazarus project all the time. Uncovering a treason and eliminating the main conspirator before the details of the treason are fully uncovered and acknowledged by the high command (TIM in our case) is unprofessional at the very best. Or it may be questioned as complicity with the conspiracy.

[prizm123]

what?

i think you are reading more into it than what needs to be, the evidence is probably contained in his data files or communications which were accessed after the station blew up

[Zulu_DFA]

prizm123 wrote...

what?
i think you are reading more into it than what needs to be, the evidence is probably contained in his data files or communications which were accessed after the station blew up

I think you need to go back to ME1's Noveria and talk to Gianna Parasini. She will tell you that crooks don't keep diaries with notes like "Today I betrayed Cerberus and expect to get away with it, even though I might not be able to get the Package to the Shadow Broker. Because if anything goes out of control, I'll just shoot myself in the leg."

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mai 2010 - 04:14 .

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

prizm123 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And that's unprofessional. TIM would at least comment on that, but he didn't.

actually, he did, he said she was right to do what she did

This proves he had full details of Wilson's conspiracy beforehand. I can't imagine TIM approving of unprofessionalism.

How?

If he didn't have full details, he would suspend Miranda from duty due to unprofessionalism.

Miranda isn't TIM's "fire-and-forget" system. She admits it herself TIM was fully controlling the Lazarus project all the time. Uncovering a treason and eliminating the main conspirator before the details of the treason are fully uncovered and acknowledged by the high command (TIM in our case) is unprofessional at the very best. Or it may be questioned as complicity with the conspiracy.

It's loose characterization at best.  If the writers want to see TIM as the master manipulator, it plays into his character.  But that whole Wilson element, let alone everyone's reaction to it, was written so poorly that the rest is wild speculation.

[Chuvvy]

House?

Modifié par Slidell505, 30 mai 2010 - 06:59 .

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

prizm123 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And that's unprofessional. TIM would at least comment on that, but he didn't.

actually, he did, he said she was right to do what she did

This proves he had full details of Wilson's conspiracy beforehand. I can't imagine TIM approving of unprofessionalism.

How?

If he didn't have full details, he would suspend Miranda from duty due to unprofessionalism.

Miranda isn't TIM's "fire-and-forget" system. She admits it herself TIM was fully controlling the Lazarus project all the time. Uncovering a treason and eliminating the main conspirator before the details of the treason are fully uncovered and acknowledged by the high command (TIM in our case) is unprofessional at the very best. Or it may be questioned as complicity with the conspiracy.

It's loose characterization at best.  If the writers want to see TIM as the master manipulator, it plays into his character.  But that whole Wilson element, let alone everyone's reaction to it, was written so poorly that the rest is wild speculation.

Or, the writers intentionally made this whole situation ambigous.

Look, I do agree, that the writing in ME2 is worse than in ME1. But in most cases it seems to be the effect of non-writers' interference with the writers' job. Terminator is the best example of this.

The worst things, that can't be explained from in-game or non-game standpoint are the whole crew abduction business and numerous lapses in planet descriptions. Although the former could also have been a result of pushing the game early to the release phase, and the latter is a courtesy of some newly hired guy who forgot to play ME1. That's real bad.

But don't bash the writers for everything, especially when an in-game explanation may exist, and just isn't presented to the player openly for the sake of suspense.

[AZ RUSH]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Images wrote...


I don't think he was working for anyone in particular but he always gave Tim Allen sage advice

You're wrong Wilson is actually Tom Hank's best friend.

Actually Wilson was the president

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

prizm123 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And that's unprofessional. TIM would at least comment on that, but he didn't.

actually, he did, he said she was right to do what she did

This proves he had full details of Wilson's conspiracy beforehand. I can't imagine TIM approving of unprofessionalism.

How?

If he didn't have full details, he would suspend Miranda from duty due to unprofessionalism.

Miranda isn't TIM's "fire-and-forget" system. She admits it herself TIM was fully controlling the Lazarus project all the time. Uncovering a treason and eliminating the main conspirator before the details of the treason are fully uncovered and acknowledged by the high command (TIM in our case) is unprofessional at the very best. Or it may be questioned as complicity with the conspiracy.

It's loose characterization at best.  If the writers want to see TIM as the master manipulator, it plays into his character.  But that whole Wilson element, let alone everyone's reaction to it, was written so poorly that the rest is wild speculation.

Or, the writers intentionally made this whole situation ambigous.

Look, I do agree, that the writing in ME2 is worse than in ME1. But in most cases it seems to be the effect of non-writers' interference with the writers' job. Terminator is the best example of this.

The worst things, that can't be explained from in-game or non-game standpoint are the whole crew abduction business and numerous lapses in planet descriptions. Although the former could also have been a result of pushing the game early to the release phase, and the latter is a courtesy of some newly hired guy who forgot to play ME1. That's real bad.

But don't bash the writers for everything, especially when an in-game explanation may exist, and just isn't presented to the player openly for the sake of suspense.

But that's the problem: the "in-game explanation" doesn't make a shred of sense.  Wilson did it.  Okay.  Why?
1) Money.
2) Miranda.

WTF?  Sorry, but that doesn't cut it.  Even a quick "I'm sorry Mira-!" by Wilson would've possibly helped.  Surmounting it to "Because TIM planned it all" doesn't begin to help the silliness of that scene.  And to argue there are even worse scenes and we should forgive this one...

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

But that's the problem: the "in-game explanation" doesn't make a shred of sense.  Wilson did it.  Okay.  Why?
1) Money.
2) Miranda.

Wilson did not do it.

Wilson intended to sell Shepard to the Shadow Broker. Once the scars fully heal. It would provide him with (1) money, and (2) the satisfaction of owning Miranda - fuguratively speaking.

TIM uncovered this plot. fully and totally verified it. And ordered Miranda to execute Wilson and his suspected accomplices. By a mech attack, that would also provide a live fire test for Shepard.

It's called "take initiative away from your enemy".

[Nightwriter]

I don't recall them saying anything at all about the Shadow Broker. In fact I can't recall them saying anything about Wilson's plan ever. Any explanations have to come from speculation.

And I certainly don't remember TIM verifying anything beyond saying Wilson was one of his top agents but he was a traitor. He said Miranda reacted the way he thought she would - I don't remember him saying he ordered her to kill Wilson.

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

I don't recall them saying anything at all about the Shadow Broker. In fact I can't recall them saying anything about Wilson's plan ever. Any explanations have to come from speculation.

And I certainly don't remember TIM verifying anything beyond saying Wilson was one of his top agents but he was a traitor. He said Miranda reacted the way he thought she would - I don't remember him saying he ordered her to kill Wilson.

Because none of this is Shepard's business. His job is: go wallop some arses on Cerberus behalf, or jump it and look pretty from the recruitment posters till the second end of his life and past it.