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[Nightwriter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because none of this is Shepard's business. His job is: go wallop some arses on Cerberus behalf, or jump it and look pretty from the recruitment posters till the second end of his life and past it.

Well, then we can't make assertions, can we? Or say that TIM fully and totally verified anything.

And even though it's not Cerberus's job to give Shepard an explanation, I felt like it was Bioware's job as writers to give us as the players an explanation. They really kinda left this hanging, didn't they?

[Zulu_DFA]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because none of this is Shepard's business. His job is: go wallop some arses on Cerberus behalf, or jump it and look pretty from the recruitment posters till the second end of his life and past it.

Well, then we can't make assertions, can we? Or say that TIM fully and totally verified anything.

And even though it's not Cerberus's job to give Shepard an explanation, I felt like it was Bioware's job as writers to give us as the players an explanation. They really kinda left this hanging, didn't they?

You read the comic? You spoke to Liara? You heard Harbinger?

By the end of the game Shepard himself can come up with the conclusion that Wilson worked for the Shadow Broker, and the end buyer of the precious him were the Collectors. Not that it really matters any more.

It did matter to TIM, though, as he was planning the Horizon showdown and the Collector vessel "trap".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mai 2010 - 08:48 .

[Arijharn]

KalosCast wrote...

Arijharn wrote...


A) If the Shadow Broker doesn't get Shephard (alive or dead) then they are no threat.
Cerberus is incredibly mobile, even if Wilson surreptiously passed on information about where the Lazarus project is located then it's meaningless to attack it, even under the auspicies of the Blue Suns/whatever because they have considerable defenses (and it's pointless to speculate on this further for the simple fact that it wasn't the Blue Suns/agents of the Shadow Broker who attacked... short of Wilson).
C) Dead men tell no tales.

A) Yeah, easily one of the richest and most politically powerful people in the galaxy are no threat if their plan fails the first (second?) time. They'll immediately give up after that regardless of the circumstances involved.
How are they mobile? Theyr'e compartmentalized, but the Lazarus Project is the first (and last) Cerberus outpost you see that's not a planet-side bunker.
C) Dead men also can't tell you the important information, like why they tried to sabotage the single most expensive and important project in literally the entire Milky Way.

Oh come on, you know full well what I mean in regards to A). They aren't an immediate threat as in, to TIM and Cerberus' plans for Shephard, not necessarily in regards to Cerberus activities as a whole.
As for well, they are rather low profile. Perhaps mobile isn't the correct word to use though because I'm just making a supposition that due the the things we know about Cerberus activities, they rely on being almost transparent, they are not really an army per say. When I say mobile, I envisage them as an organisation that if it's projects are in danger of exposure, then with relative ease they can dismantle their operations and start again elsewhere.
As for C, I'll try again to illustrate my point. The 'why' is less important as just plain stopping the attempt. 

To (re)clarify though. I don't think that Zulu's opinion is necessarily wrong, I just think it was stupid of him to say that his opinion is cut and dried and the definitive reason.

[ChanceRandom]

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because none of this is Shepard's business. His job is: go wallop some arses on Cerberus behalf, or jump it and look pretty from the recruitment posters till the second end of his life and past it.

Well, then we can't make assertions, can we? Or say that TIM fully and totally verified anything.

And even though it's not Cerberus's job to give Shepard an explanation, I felt like it was Bioware's job as writers to give us as the players an explanation. They really kinda left this hanging, didn't they?

I think thats kind of the point. This story if written from the first person perspective. You are in part the narrator of your own story by way of the decisions you make throughout the game. What you see in the world presented is all you get, exactly the way it is in real life. So if the opportunity never presents itself to discover something, you will still be left in the dark.
 
Example, you find 200 dollars on the ground. Now you have no idea how that money got there, or the ramifications of it being lost, you just know you now have 200 dollars. Now is it "God's" responsibility, "God" being the writter of our existance, to come down and tell you that an old lady on a limited income lost it not 2 minutes ago and that she is frantically looking for it. Or that she will be back following her footsteps trying to find it, because she needs it to pay rent that month. Well lets not argue God and his existence, we both know he isnt going to come and tell you either way. So you have to decide, do you pocket it or do you wait there for a few minutes with the hope that someone will come frantically looking around like their lives depend on finding something.

I think what alot of people perceive as plot holes in the plot, are actually attempts by the writters to give you the immersive sence of being the first person perspective in the story. You wont know everything, or the reasons why it hapened at all, you just know that something has happpened and because of it you now have people shooting at you. I say smile, shoot back and hope that after the body count has gotten high enough maybe some explanations will happen.

Modifié par ChanceRandom, 31 mai 2010 - 02:53 .

[Zulu_DFA]

ChanceRandom wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because none of this is Shepard's business. His job is: go wallop some arses on Cerberus behalf, or jump it and look pretty from the recruitment posters till the second end of his life and past it.

Well, then we can't make assertions, can we? Or say that TIM fully and totally verified anything.

And even though it's not Cerberus's job to give Shepard an explanation, I felt like it was Bioware's job as writers to give us as the players an explanation. They really kinda left this hanging, didn't they?

I think thats kind of the point. This story if written from the first person perspective. You are in part the narrator of your own story by way of the decisions you make throughout the game. What you see in the world presented is all you get, exactly the way it is in real life. So if the opportunity never presents itself to discover something, you will still be left in the dark.
 
Example, you find 200 dollars on the ground. Now you have no idea how that money got there, or the ramifications of it being lost, you just know you now have 200 dollars. Now is it "God's" responsibility, "God" being the writter of our existance, to come down and tell you that an old lady on a limited income lost it not 2 minutes ago and that she is frantically looking for it. Or that she will be back following her footsteps trying to find it, because she needs it to pay rent that month. Well lets not argue God and his existence, we both know he isnt going to come and tell you either way. So you have to decide, do you pocket it or do you wait there for a few minutes with the hope that someone will come frantically looking around like their lives depend on finding something.

I think what alot of people perceive as plot holes in the plot, are actually attempts by the writters to give you the immersive sence of being the first person perspective in the story. You wont know everything, or the reasons why it hapened at all, you just know that something has happpened and because of it you now have people shooting at you. I say smile, shoot back and hope that after the body count has gotten high enough maybe some explanations will happen.

My thoughts exactly.

And this Wilson business is the best example of the writers succesfully trying to screw with us.

[smudboy]

ChanceRandom wrote...
I think thats kind of the point. This story if written from the first person perspective. You are in part the narrator of your own story by way of the decisions you make throughout the game. What you see in the world presented is all you get, exactly the way it is in real life. So if the opportunity never presents itself to discover something, you will still be left in the dark.

"This story is written from the first person perspective."

No.  No it's not.

I think what alot of people perceive as plot holes in the plot, are actually attempts by the writters to give you the immersive sence of being the first person perspective in the story. You wont know everything, or the reasons why it hapened at all, you just know that something has happpened and because of it you now have people shooting at you. I say smile, shoot back and hope that after the body count has gotten high enough maybe some explanations will happen.

Except no explanations are given.

The idea that plot holes are forgiven because you believe the entire story is written in a certain narrative mode, and that the writer is trying to do something...

...has got to be one of the most ******* retarded things I have ever heard on this board.  That says a lot.

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
My thoughts exactly.

And this Wilson business is the best example of the writers succesfully trying to screw with us.

Sorry Zulu.  There's no ***** slap emote.  Let's ask Ecael to make one or something.

(Now I don't know if the writers are specifically screwing with us, or marketing or design has screwed them.  But people are definitely being screwed here.)

Modifié par smudboy, 31 mai 2010 - 01:06 .

[STG]

After reading Redemption it makes perfect sense that Shadow Broker turned Wilson.



Then again it would make even more sense to just give Collectors the location of where Shepard is and be done with it. But I guess that would leave us without a second game.

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

(Now I don't know if the writers are specifically screwing with us, or marketing or design has screwed them.  But people are definitely being screwed here.)

First the marketing and design screwed them. Then the screwed writers were free to screw with us as much as they liked.

As I said, after the thermal clips retcon, fashion show outfits and Cerberus uniform, everything became a fair game.

[AZ RUSH]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

First the marketing and design screwed them. Then the screwed writers were free to screw with us as much as they liked.

As I said, after the thermal clips retcon, fashion show outfits and Cerberus uniform, everything became a fair game.

I hope people used protection throughout all this screwing....sorry couldn't resist.
Seriously though, I think Wilson was just jealous so he decided to help the SB (not collectors, b/c they would have come in person) get Shepard's body.

[ChanceRandom]

smudboy wrote...
No.  No it's not.

Yes, yes it is. and since you gave no arguement giving support to this comment neither will I.

smudboy wrote...
Except no explanations are given.

In life, sometimes no explaination is given, People die every single day and no explainantion is given. People starve, get rich, fly kites, and make games with no explainantion given. And just because youre pettyness cant accept that fact WONT change a thing.

smudboy wrote...
The idea that plot holes are forgiven because you believe the entire story is written in a certain narrative mode, and that the writer is trying to do something...

...has got to be one of the most ******* retarded things I have ever heard on this board.  That says a lot.


And this is just a stupid, small minded personal attack to provoke a fight, so Im just gonna say one last time, IF YOU DONT LIKE THE GAME DONT PLAY IT, MAN UP, STOP WHINING AND LEAVE THE GAME TO THOSE OF US THAT DO LIKE IT. Im done with you sir.

Modifié par ChanceRandom, 31 mai 2010 - 05:49 .

[TheZanSnake]

I thinks it either out of hatred towards Miranda and Ceberus all together or trying to get Shepard and the whole station killed for Shadow Broker, but Miranda knew the case before he was able to escape in time, resulting on her awakening Shepard earlier and that's, either why Wilson got shot by or why Wilson shot himself to get Shepard to work with him to make an escape where he would have killed him and report back to the Shadow Broker that the task was done.



Meh, it could have been a plot hole but that doesn't mean you can't have personal interpretation in to it especially since it wasn't a big part of the game's plot.

[Zulu_DFA]

AZ RUSH wrote...

I hope people used protection throughout all this screwing....sorry couldn't resist.

It was copy protection mostly... sorry couldn't resist.

[smudboy]

ChanceRandom wrote...
Yes, yes it is. and since you gave no arguement giving support to this comment neither will I.

I don't need an argument because there's nothing to argue.  The mode is not first person.  First person what, plural?  Who's the narrator?  Where's their inner monologue?  Do you even know what you're talking about?

In life, sometimes no explaination is given, People die every single day and no explainantion is given. People starve, get rich, fly kites, and make games with no explainantion given. And just because youre pettyness cant accept that fact WONT change a thing.

Yes, but stories have things called plots.  Well, except ME2.

And this is just a stupid, small minded personal attack to provoke a fight, so Im just gonna say one last time, IF YOU DONT LIKE THE GAME DONT PLAY IT, MAN UP, STOP WHINING AND LEAVE THE GAME TO THOSE OF US THAT DO LIKE IT. Im done with you sir.

No, no it's really not.  Nor am I whining.  First, you made the mistake that ME2 is written (or shown for that matter) in some first person mode.  It most clearly isn't.  (And I'm not talking about the camera, that's something else.) This is made evident by a variety of cutscenes (Miranda talking to TIM, Horizon abduction scene and the Collector General, before meeting Anderson, etc.)  You then make an absurd argument that because it's first person, then the plot holes are AOK.  So narrative style, therefore, clarity?  What?  That's like saying the writer used a compound verb, so the motivations of the protagonist are AOK.  Even if the mode was first, or second person omniscient, we still need stuff explained and shown to us for things to make sense (Harbinger's motivations, Cerberus' railroading, Shepard's resurrection, etc.)

This is what we call comedy.

[AZ RUSH]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AZ RUSH wrote...

I hope people used protection throughout all this screwing....sorry couldn't resist.

It was copy protection mostly... sorry couldn't resist.

Or maybe witness protection....sorry couldn't resaist.

[Wolverfrog]

Wilson actually works for the Alliance's covert Anti-Reaper division, and was attempting to save you from Cerberus and their manipulative gaze. Before he could, The Illusive Man uncovered his plan and told Miranda to start the mechs.

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

Where's their inner monologue?

Your inner monologue is Shepard's inner monologue.

TIM: Hello, Shepard, I'm TIM, Cerberus honcho. You're working for me now!
Your Shepard: WTF?!
[<<]
TIM: Hello, Shepard, I'm TIM, Cerberus honcho. You're working for me now!
My Shepard: Cool.

Hence, first person perspective.

And those little thingies like TIM & Miranda, Ashley & Lilith, Collector General are little bonuses, that add up on our metagame knowledge, since I am sure pretty everyone who is interested about the story of ME already has a lot of it: From Ascention, Revelation, and Redemption. Through the course of the gamewe can assume Shepard gains that knowledge too via non-depicted communication with the characters involved. And BTW, you can buy the Karpyshyn's novels in-game!

Even Joker's mission, being a poor plot device by itself, can be interpreted as Shepard listening to the Joker's account of the crew abduction .

Anyway, the cutscenes with no Shepard participation are quite rare and by no means invalidate the approach that "you are Shepard", and by no means oblidge the writer to chew all the gum for you.

And if you were not shown the Collecor General at all, you probably would accuse the writers of making no main adversary at all, as you are now accusing them of not making a compelling adversary.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 novembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Where's their inner monologue?

Your inner monologue is Shepard's inner monologue.

TIM: Hello, Shepard, I'm TIM, Cerberus hnocho. You're working for m now!
Your Shepard: WTF?!
[<<]
TIM: Hello, Shepard, I'm TIM, Cerberus hnocho. You're working for m now!
My Shepard: Cool.

Hence, first person perspective.

1. No.
2. That's called dialogue.
3. Where's the first person perspective?

And those little thingies like TIM & Miranda, Ashley & Lilith, Collector General are little bonuses, that add up on our metagame knowledge, since I am sure pretty everyone who is interested about the story of ME already has a lot of it: From Ascention, Revelation, and Redemption. Through the course of the gamewe can assume Shepard gains that knowledge too via non-depected communication with the characters involved. And BTW, you can buy the Karpyshin's novels in-game!

Nonsense.  That mode is called third person omniscient.

Although I think it's awesome there are books and comic books to expand a given idea or plot, some of those plots should've been present (Liara, Cerberus, the Council, etc.)

Even Joker's mission, being a poor plot device by itself, can be interpreted as Shepard listening to the Joker's account of the crew abduction.

Ah?  So after Joker's mission, when Joker tells Shepard in the comm room about what happened, is an example of Shepard listening to Joker.  Sure.  What is your point?  Cause if it's first person, you're still wrong.  You could argue that because of Joker's mission you get to control them, thus there are multiple narrators, but that view isn't first person (as evidenced by the cutscene of the Collector ship coming out of nowhere, and the crew scrambling to defend themselves.)  The closest you might get to that is Joker going "**** **** **** ****." and "what the ****."  But thath's more or less him just swearing, and not too himself in his mind, but him literally swearing.

Anyway, the cutscenes with no Shepard participation are quite rare and by no means invalidate the approach that "you are Shepard", and by no means oblidge the writer to chew all the gum for you.

They're not quite rare.  Even if there was only one, that invalides a first person perspective because we suddenly have a different narrator.

And if you were not shown the Collecor General at all, you probably would accuse the writers of making no main adversary at all, as you are now accusing them of not making a compelling adversary.

This isn't about an antagonist: the argument is concerning narrative mode.  We can easily be shown anything or anyone within any perspective for any narrative mode.  The fact that the story is in 3rd person omniscient is pretty flippin obvious.  To argue that due to ones belief it's really first person and thus you can forgive plot holes, is holy ******* retarded on so many levels I can only laugh at the idea.

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...
This isn't about an antagonist: the argument is concerning narrative mode.  We can easily be shown anything or anyone within any perspective for any narrative mode.  The fact that the story is in 3rd person omniscient is pretty flippin obvious.  To argue that due to ones belief it's really first person and thus you can forgive plot holes, is holy ******* retarded on so many levels I can only laugh at the idea.

*shrugs*

Kudos for the videos you made, and I think it might actually help if Mac Walters and his troop watch them...

But, you, sir, are in the lost on principle. Brace yourself for big surprizes in ME3. Of course, you are going to call them all plot holes because you were not told about them in ME1, as your 3rd person omniscient mode required.

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...
This isn't about an antagonist: the argument is concerning narrative mode.  We can easily be shown anything or anyone within any perspective for any narrative mode.  The fact that the story is in 3rd person omniscient is pretty flippin obvious.  To argue that due to ones belief it's really first person and thus you can forgive plot holes, is holy ******* retarded on so many levels I can only laugh at the idea.

*shrugs*

Kudos for the videos you made, and I think it might actually help if Mac Walters and his troop watch them...

But, you, sir, are in the lost on principle. Brace yourself for big surprizes in ME3. Of course, you are going to call them all plot holes because you were not told about them in ME1, as your 3rd person omniscient mode required.

Thanks.  I think they won't help.  But, if we believe story writing comes after game design, there might be hope.

Okay, I'll bite.  What am I losing on principle?

There are many kinds, but not giving me info in ME1 or 2, yet doing so in ME3, doesn't make those potential events plot holes.  Anything that doesn't make sense, or should, or doesn't follow logic, common sense, or doesn't acknowledge or address an obvious idea, etc., is a plot hole.  The lack of exposition in ME1/ME2, going into ME3, is merely poor setup (considering this was planned to be a trilogy.)  The lack of explanation or understanding of a given event, in relation to preceeding events, can be a form of lampshading.  Additionally there are many kinds of narrative tools (plot devices, usually bad things) that can become plot holes.  All a writer has to do is explain or show something clearly, and even plot devices (a MacGuffin, like Tali's Evidence, Mordin's countermeasure, etc.), and things are okay.

I have almost no clue what ME3 is going to be about, but I do find your theories and love of Cerberus quite entertaining.

[Sharn01]

Both ME's are not first person perspective. We as the player are given information that Shepard does not know on many occasions, and we are not privy to Shepard's thoughts on anything.



We can assume that our thoughts are Shepards, but that is clearly not the case since the writers often have Shepard react in certain ways outside of player control even if they do not want them to, Jacob (shudder) for instance.



So either ME is not 1st person, or the writers are some of the worst in the history of professional writers by constantly showing us information that Shepard does not see, and doesnt gives us Shepards input on what is going on, nor give us full control of Shepard.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sharn01 wrote...

Both ME's are not first person perspective. We as the player are given information that Shepard does not know on many occasions, and we are not privy to Shepard's thoughts on anything.

We can assume that our thoughts are Shepards, but that is clearly not the case since the writers often have Shepard react in certain ways outside of player control even if they do not want them to, Jacob (shudder) for instance.

So either ME is not 1st person, or the writers are some of the worst in the history of professional writers by constantly showing us information that Shepard does not see, and doesnt gives us Shepards input on what is going on, nor give us full control of Shepard.

The writers can't give you full freedom of action and speech, because it would amount to a 100 blu-ray disks worth of content. So they do streamline something. No matter what you chose for your Shepard's gender, background and psychological profile, (s)he remains a career military (wo)man. And if you think it stright it eases at least half the tension between the Sole Survivor and Cerberus.

But it's clear that the writers do inted to give you as much control of your Shepard as possible. And that includes Shepard's thoughts. For example the first awakening when you see Miranda and Wilson.

And I would prefer those cutsenes to be cut, but that'd leave much more "plot holes" so that the outcry about "no plot" would be much louder.

@ smudboy.
Thanks, now I know what's a MacGuffin. And truthfully, I think MacGuffins are great. They are as old as the literature itself. I swear I dindn't know what the "fleece" was when I was read a compilation of the Argonauts' cycle in my childhood, but I cried in the end. In real life sometimes millions of people die over McGuffins, such as world communist revolution, a millenial reich, or democracy. So I can't see any reason, why Shepard's adventures can't revolve around some small mysteries, provided they aren't obvious retcons.

[EmonFett]

If i recall in wilsons audio logs he wanted to save shepard and was proud to have brought him back.

[Thompson family]

The highest bidder.



My guess, though, is the Shadow Broker. Who else would have the information gathering, secret-cracking skill to find this (I assume) top secret Cerberus facility and the money to turn Wilson. Even then it took two years.

[VanTesla]

I say it was set up by TIM.

Tim knows the progress of Shepards recovery and he wanted to battle test him too see if he was truely the Shepard he once was. Miranda and Jacob have no clue and TIM knew they would make it for that is why he chosed them.

It was all a test and to possibly destroy evidence of the project for only few know about it.

Remember TIM is the one that lead Shepard into a collector trap believing they would survive.... so this is not a mad theory.

Modifié par VanTesla, 25 août 2010 - 01:44 .