37 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

Is it just me or is Justice not really Justice at all? It's almost as if merely being in a body corrupts his ideals since he rarely speaks about justice and often confuses it with vengeance... especially the 'choice' you may have with him in the end, especially since Grey Warden's are supposed to be charged with finding a way that ends the Blights (as in, for good) since the current methods aren't very effective as evidence dictates.

I wish I could of explained that to him. 

[Thor Rand Al]

Arijharn wrote...

Is it just me or is Justice not really Justice at all? It's almost as if merely being in a body corrupts his ideals since he rarely speaks about justice and often confuses it with vengeance... especially the 'choice' you may have with him in the end, especially since Grey Warden's are supposed to be charged with finding a way that ends the Blights (as in, for good) since the current methods aren't very effective as evidence dictates.

I wish I could of explained that to him. 

All Justice knows is the Fade.  He's been litereally ripped out of there n into the human world.  He's experiencing things he's never experienced before, how is he suppose to act?
As far as the Architect, he's a darkspawn, I agree with Justice and I'm not going into that any further.  I said my p's n q's a long time ago about the Architect n I won't repeat them lol.

[Vicious]

The Architect has done a great many evil things that have resulted in the deaths of quite a few good people.



It's no surprise Justice feels that he should be killed when the opportunity presents itself.

[Arijharn]

I know I'm bumping a necro thread, so sue me, but when I say that Justice is corrupted I mean that he's corrupted simply by being 'personally involved', no matter what his intent is.



Justice, while in the fade and assisting the townsfolk against the baroness is Justice (although iirc the Baroness illustrates that she was owed them their service, and what of her 'justice', but that's an abuse of power) as Justice is supposed to represent, but as soon as he was forced into a human body, his views are principally judged from the perspective of the well, former occupant of the body. He is compromised by these principles, events, and therefore can not be trusted to be 'Justice' for the simple fact that justice has to be done by an impartial judge... Justice (the character) is not impartial therefore he is corrupted.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think it's so much that he's been corrupted as he has a black-and-white mentality and while the Fade will support that the mortal realm won't. Think of all the times we've had to go into the Fade. In the mage origin there was a spirit who aspired to valor who wouldn't help you until you either proved yours or accused it of being a demon and the two demons you had to face were clearly evil. When you are at the Circle and trapped in the Fade the five demons ensnaring the Templars and mages andthe Sloth demon at the center of it all were clearly evil. When you face the demon possessing Connor who tries to get you to trade an innocent little boy's soul for such baubles as sex or free approval? Clearly evil.



The Baroness Justice was rallying the villagers agains who had sacrificed their children with blood magic and had enslaved them all for decades at least? Potentially useful but definitely evil. He is not the embodiment of Justice, justice is just the virtue to which he aspires to. He's trying to live his life acting in a just manner at all times and he's very good a being firm in the face of evil but he cannot see the shades of grey. In his mind Nathaniel broke into a building and stole items and thus that was an evil thing to do. That it used to be Nathaniel's house and he was just reclaiming his things was irrelevent to him. To him Velanna's klling those merchants was evil and while many agree he could not see the slight mitigating factor of the darkspawn tricking her into believing the humans took her sister.



The Arcitect's plan was another shade of grey. There were some people who felt that since the darkspawn had the potential to be intelligent it was their right but many of the people who hesitated to simply kill him concluded that a mass Awakening of darkspawn was inevitable once the last two Old God's were destroyed because the Awakened darkspawn were free of the song. The Architect's methods of kidnapping and experimenting on Wardens was vile and if his species were to continue he'd need to keep attacing settements to get female to become broodmothers but if he could not have some control over the darkspawn Awakening then it would be all at once and the ones who could not handle it - like the Mother - would rise up worse than any Blight and destroy everything. The Architect, if he lives, will undoubtably cause more horrors and even started the Fifth Blight but some feel the risk of killing him is greater than the risk of leaving him alive and so do not kill him. How does that fit into Justice's black-and-white worldview?



Kristoff was fully capable of thinking in terms of the greys of this world. When Justce did look through his memories he couldn't understand them and even his longing for something as beautiful as Kristoff's and Aura's love for each other frightened him because he dealt in absolutes and only demons wanted what mortals had. Black and white. Crime and punishment. That doesn't work very well outside of the Fade, however, and that is why Justice has difficulty adjusting.

[Arijharn]

Justice and the architect is the principle point I think of why I think justice is inherently corrupted by the fact he's, well... alive now. It's the Grey Warden's sacred charge to stop the blights (at any means necessary), and you can't really 'explain' that to him that your motivations are to do so, and not take 'vengeance' for his mentality, even though it's understandable and I can certainly see your point.



He has difficulty adapting, but he doesn't really seem to make any progress despite the conversations he (may) have with Nathaniel.



To add to this, it's not like I can explain to him that killing each Blight as it arises is inefficient, to nip this in the bud is potentially within grasp and you have to move past his present mind of thinking to approach something with a new prospective. Well I can, with a successful coercion check, but not with my real intent really of illustrating his flaws.



I like Justice's character a lot, but he still infuriates me some times heh.

[Asdara]

Nip blights in the bud by elevating the darkspawn to a respectable race within Thedas you mean? Really?! The humans can barely manage to treat elves with half a shred of dignity; they ignore the dwarves almost entirely unless they are trading with them - and don't give a damn about their plight of holding their last city vs. the darkspawn between blights, and you expect them to incorporate the DARKSPAWN into society?! That isn't going to fly. It's naive to think it would ever produce a positive result for anyone. Not to mention the fact that the dominant religious beliefs peg darkspawn as a sinful bane upon the land to punish the pride of mages of old.



Oh, did I mention they kill people, eat them, turn women into broodmothers to spawn more of their ilk, and want the blood of Grey Wardens?



Justice is right. One half-decent darkspawn does not the entire horde redeem. I say half-decent only because he found it convenient not to kill you when he had the chance - only steal your blood! - because you were the only person who might kill the Mother who was mucking up his pursuits. Oh, did he mention that he "accidentally" started that last blight that got Ferelden basically turned to ashes? Uh-huh.

[Patriciachr34]

Justice is in essence a child when it comes to issues of morality. As children, we were told what is good and what is bad and accepted these precepts as absolutes. In our small world, that made perfect sense. However, as we grew up and were better able to comprehend the world around us, we started seeing more shades of grey. We were forced to make our own decisions based on our life experience and our interpretation of what is right and wrong. This is how I view Justice' perspective once he enters the physical world. In the Fade, his experiences were limited. He now must learned the subtleties of vengeance versus justice and right versus wrong. I find it interesting that Justice thinks the Fade is more fluid than the physical world. Although the physical world has a specific physical shape, the morality here is much more fluid.

[Sarah1281]

Arijharn wrote...

Justice and the architect is the principle point I think of why I think justice is inherently corrupted by the fact he's, well... alive now. It's the Grey Warden's sacred charge to stop the blights (at any means necessary), and you can't really 'explain' that to him that your motivations are to do so, and not take 'vengeance' for his mentality, even though it's understandable and I can certainly see your point.

He has difficulty adapting, but he doesn't really seem to make any progress despite the conversations he (may) have with Nathaniel.

To add to this, it's not like I can explain to him that killing each Blight as it arises is inefficient, to nip this in the bud is potentially within grasp and you have to move past his present mind of thinking to approach something with a new prospective. Well I can, with a successful coercion check, but not with my real intent really of illustrating his flaws.

I like Justice's character a lot, but he still infuriates me some times heh.

Think of how determined and sure of himself he was in the Fade. He knew that the Baroness and darkspawn were evil and since they were allied he was killing two birds with one stone. Do you feel that had you encountered the Architect in the Fade before he got trapped in Kristoff that he would be any more open to the Architect's plan? I do not believe so and thus I don't see how he's corrupted. Yes, he focuses on vengeace but that is his definition of Justice much like Alistair's concept of getting justice for Duncan and the other Wardens is killing Loghain. You could argue that that is vengeance but that's not how he sees it. He calls it justice. Justice is not the emobidment of justice he's just a Fade spirit that tries to act with Justice in everything he does and when he needs a name for the first time ever goes with that.

And I'm not sure taking the Architects offer is about fighting Blights being inefficient. There are only two more, after all, and Thedas has withstood them all and have gotten better and better at dealing with the Blights. It's not about that. It's about what will happen to the darkspawn when the Blights are over and if they will all Awaken at once and try to kill everybody with no way to stop them. Awakened darkspawn are just as dangerous if not more so than Blight darkspawn but unlike Blight darkspawn you can't make them stop by killing one giant dragon with a GW. They'll be around unti you either make peace or manage to wipe out the entire species. If the Architect can make it a smoother transition then that is why a lot of people keep him around.

[Ash Wind]

It seems to be a recurring theme in DA. In the Urn for Sacred Ashes quest, the Wife of the Archon's little rant about justice seems to view justice and vengence as two parts of the same virture with an Eye for an Eye mentality.

[Demx]

I always thought it was humans that gave the spirits their names, because of the spirit's actions being presented to said human. So Justice really isn't bound by the definition of the word justice.

[Sarah1281]

Siradix wrote...

I always thought it was humans that gave the spirits their names, because of the spirit's actions being presented to said human. So Justice really isn't bound by the definition of the word justice.

Spirits don't have names, true, and so Justice and the one in the mage orign are referred to as the Spirit of Justice and the Spirit of Valor because that's the virtue they prattle on about. Justice chooses to name himself, though, and his understanding of Justice - if he's been paying attention to Thedas - probably would include vengeance.

[Nerdage]

I think changes after inhabiting Kristoff's body, and I was a bit suspicious when he said he envied what Kristoff and Aura had (sounded like a rather demonic thing to say, though I doubt that's how he meant it), but corruption is putting it a bit strong. He gains a new perspective but he's fundamentally the same 'person'.
Also, you only know him for about 3 minutes in the fade, it's hard to tell just how much he changes anyway, if at all.

Modifié par nerdage, 29 mai 2010 - 10:55 .

[Sarah1281]

nerdage wrote...

I think changes after inhabiting Kristoff's body, and I was a bit suspicious when he said he envied what Kristoff and Aura had (sounded like a rather demonic thing to say, though I doubt that's how he meant it), but corruption is putting it a bit strong. He gains a new perspective but he's fundamentally the same 'person'.
Also, you only know him for about 3 minutes in the fade, it's hard to tell just how much he changes anyway, if at all.

He freaks out about that and thinks only demons want mortal experiences like that and you can either confirm that this is troubling or assure him that there's nothing wrong with wanting someing as beautiful as love as long as he doesn't try to take it from others like demons do.

[Nerdage]

He still says it, which is a sign of change before you can tell him anything, and even the best advice might only delay the change. That's what I thought at the time anyway, hence my suspicions, but having finished the game it seems he stays pretty much true to his virtues, to think about the endgame during his conversation seems like metagaming though, which I try to avoid.

Modifié par nerdage, 29 mai 2010 - 11:18 .

[Arijharn]

Asdara wrote...

Nip blights in the bud by elevating the darkspawn to a respectable race within Thedas you mean? Really?! The humans can barely manage to treat elves with half a shred of dignity; they ignore the dwarves almost entirely unless they are trading with them - and don't give a damn about their plight of holding their last city vs. the darkspawn between blights, and you expect them to incorporate the DARKSPAWN into society?! That isn't going to fly. It's naive to think it would ever produce a positive result for anyone. Not to mention the fact that the dominant religious beliefs peg darkspawn as a sinful bane upon the land to punish the pride of mages of old.

Oh, did I mention they kill people, eat them, turn women into broodmothers to spawn more of their ilk, and want the blood of Grey Wardens?

Justice is right. One half-decent darkspawn does not the entire horde redeem. I say half-decent only because he found it convenient not to kill you when he had the chance - only steal your blood! - because you were the only person who might kill the Mother who was mucking up his pursuits. Oh, did he mention that he "accidentally" started that last blight that got Ferelden basically turned to ashes? Uh-huh.

As heartless as it sounds, all of that is irrelevant. Sure, we don't take their women and turn them into 'brood'mothers, but we certainly collect our fair share of Darkspawn blood to drink. How is that any different than their attempts? Or is it solely because the shoe is on the other foot, that it's happening to us and not to them that you take exception. Just because you free them from the 'shackles' of listening to the slumbering song doesn't mean that they're going to walk into the surface and start trading with humanity or the other species anyway, so I don't know where you got that from.

I'm not saying that allying with the Architect is the best possible solution of course, but it seems to me that there are at least more blights in the future (I mean, who's to say that the Archdemon has to be an Old God? Couldn't it just as well be any 'regular' High Dragon? We fight two!)

'Accidentally' starting the blight doesn't make him automatically evil, unless you're willing to consider that every war started within Fereldan and the other nations are also evil due to 'accidents'? It was incredibly unfortunate true (as a gross understatement that is), but I think it would be a disservice to hold him responsible forever without some way to prevent another blight. If every blight costs more than the last blight (or at 'best', equal amounts), then I think it's prudent to look for other ways to prevent a blight short of the strategy of 'kill em all,' since it's rather obvious that that particular strategy plain just doesn't work.

Incidentally though, making an alliance with the Architect does seem to stop the blights if judging from the Epilogue text is anythign to go by.

[Sarah1281]

Incidentally though, making an alliance with the Architect does seem to stop the blights if judging from the Epilogue text is anythign to go by.

The epilogue says nothing of the sort. Killing the Architect means the Deep Roads are as darkspawn-filled as ever and not killing him means that the darkspawn are quieter. Even if there are no more Blights in centuries it doesn't necessarily have to do with whether the Architect lived or not because unless he's planning on Awakening every darkspawn ever (which is actually less feasible than simply killing them all due to a shortage of Wardens) or finding the Old Gods himself and forever having his disciples stand guard and not accidently corrupt another one then he can't stop te Blights. Trying to Awaken an Old God started the last Blight and he has no way of knowig whether he could Awaken a new one without risking starting the sixth Blight.

[Vicious]

Until they introduce a patch where the Architect explains why he created doppelgangers of my entire party, he dies every time.

[sylvanaerie]

Arijharn wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Nip blights in the bud by elevating the darkspawn to a respectable race within Thedas you mean? Really?! The humans can barely manage to treat elves with half a shred of dignity; they ignore the dwarves almost entirely unless they are trading with them - and don't give a damn about their plight of holding their last city vs. the darkspawn between blights, and you expect them to incorporate the DARKSPAWN into society?! That isn't going to fly. It's naive to think it would ever produce a positive result for anyone. Not to mention the fact that the dominant religious beliefs peg darkspawn as a sinful bane upon the land to punish the pride of mages of old.

Oh, did I mention they kill people, eat them, turn women into broodmothers to spawn more of their ilk, and want the blood of Grey Wardens?

Justice is right. One half-decent darkspawn does not the entire horde redeem. I say half-decent only because he found it convenient not to kill you when he had the chance - only steal your blood! - because you were the only person who might kill the Mother who was mucking up his pursuits. Oh, did he mention that he "accidentally" started that last blight that got Ferelden basically turned to ashes? Uh-huh.

As heartless as it sounds, all of that is irrelevant. Sure, we don't take their women and turn them into 'brood'mothers, but we certainly collect our fair share of Darkspawn blood to drink. How is that any different than their attempts? Or is it solely because the shoe is on the other foot, that it's happening to us and not to them that you take exception. Just because you free them from the 'shackles' of listening to the slumbering song doesn't mean that they're going to walk into the surface and start trading with humanity or the other species anyway, so I don't know where you got that from.

I'm not saying that allying with the Architect is the best possible solution of course, but it seems to me that there are at least more blights in the future (I mean, who's to say that the Archdemon has to be an Old God? Couldn't it just as well be any 'regular' High Dragon? We fight two!)

'Accidentally' starting the blight doesn't make him automatically evil, unless you're willing to consider that every war started within Fereldan and the other nations are also evil due to 'accidents'? It was incredibly unfortunate true (as a gross understatement that is), but I think it would be a disservice to hold him responsible forever without some way to prevent another blight. If every blight costs more than the last blight (or at 'best', equal amounts), then I think it's prudent to look for other ways to prevent a blight short of the strategy of 'kill em all,' since it's rather obvious that that particular strategy plain just doesn't work.

Incidentally though, making an alliance with the Architect does seem to stop the blights if judging from the Epilogue text is anythign to go by.

That proves nothing. I killed him and my epilogue didn't have any Blights for at least a millenium (I got the Silver Knights Card).  The epilogues are ...well...don't get me started on that.  Suffice to say, Killing the Architect or not killing him pretty much gets the same results as far as Blights goes.
I killed him because this guy is like the Jowan of Darkspawn, really stupid stupid ideas or else the execution of his plans are all fubared.
Justice is right.  Kill the bugger and let the Maker sort them out.

[thegreateski]

I've never played Awakenings but I can think of one good reason why the Darkspawn must be wiped out.



Broodmothers. The method by which Darkspawn reproduce.



or did they address that little loose end in the game?

[sylvanaerie]

thegreateski wrote...

I've never played Awakenings but I can think of one good reason why the Darkspawn must be wiped out.

Broodmothers. The method by which Darkspawn reproduce.

or did they address that little loose end in the game?

Nope they still do the broodmother tango.

[Murphys_Law]

I think the problem is that justice in traditional medieval settings almost universally means vengeance/eye for an eye. Make note that this has a heavy influence on the direct victims as reasoning on why it needs to be done. It was just how we viewed things back then. Presently, we view justice as more of just a general term for punishment for damaging society (only reason why we have laws). So essentially, justice and vengeance are close, if not the same thing, in any medieval fantasy setting

[asaiasai]

Arijharn wrote...

Asdara wrote...

Nip blights in the bud by elevating the darkspawn to a respectable race within Thedas you mean? Really?! The humans can barely manage to treat elves with half a shred of dignity; they ignore the dwarves almost entirely unless they are trading with them - and don't give a damn about their plight of holding their last city vs. the darkspawn between blights, and you expect them to incorporate the DARKSPAWN into society?! That isn't going to fly. It's naive to think it would ever produce a positive result for anyone. Not to mention the fact that the dominant religious beliefs peg darkspawn as a sinful bane upon the land to punish the pride of mages of old.

Oh, did I mention they kill people, eat them, turn women into broodmothers to spawn more of their ilk, and want the blood of Grey Wardens?

Justice is right. One half-decent darkspawn does not the entire horde redeem. I say half-decent only because he found it convenient not to kill you when he had the chance - only steal your blood! - because you were the only person who might kill the Mother who was mucking up his pursuits. Oh, did he mention that he "accidentally" started that last blight that got Ferelden basically turned to ashes? Uh-huh.

As heartless as it sounds, all of that is irrelevant. Sure, we don't take their women and turn them into 'brood'mothers, but we certainly collect our fair share of Darkspawn blood to drink. How is that any different than their attempts? Or is it solely because the shoe is on the other foot, that it's happening to us and not to them that you take exception. Just because you free them from the 'shackles' of listening to the slumbering song doesn't mean that they're going to walk into the surface and start trading with humanity or the other species anyway, so I don't know where you got that from.

I'm not saying that allying with the Architect is the best possible solution of course, but it seems to me that there are at least more blights in the future (I mean, who's to say that the Archdemon has to be an Old God? Couldn't it just as well be any 'regular' High Dragon? We fight two!)

'Accidentally' starting the blight doesn't make him automatically evil, unless you're willing to consider that every war started within Fereldan and the other nations are also evil due to 'accidents'? It was incredibly unfortunate true (as a gross understatement that is), but I think it would be a disservice to hold him responsible forever without some way to prevent another blight. If every blight costs more than the last blight (or at 'best', equal amounts), then I think it's prudent to look for other ways to prevent a blight short of the strategy of 'kill em all,' since it's rather obvious that that particular strategy plain just doesn't work.

Incidentally though, making an alliance with the Architect does seem to stop the blights if judging from the Epilogue text is anythign to go by.

I agree with you if anything the game has set the precident that the Grey Wardens accept help where ever they can find it. Most people have such cute romantic notions of what the Grey Wardens are none more so than Allistair, which is the reason for his tantrum. I have on a few plays in A spared the Architect because he is probably the only DS that is able to be conversed with. He could provide an insight to the DS like no other in the history of Feraldin, just think of all that could be learned by both sides if cooperation was allowed to grow. People will have thier prejudices and there is nothing that can be said  someone like that to open their closed mind, fortunatly we all get to decide for ourselves what our outcomes are.  Smart DS that follow the Architect could be a powerful ally in the future, and in the plays where i spared the Architect the deep roads were quiet, or so the epilogue says. The way i see it is that the Awakened DS would probably be in as much danger in another blight from the AD as is the rest of the land. This would be a prime motivator for them to ally with the wardens, and from what i have seen playing DSC they might just prove to be the tilt in our favor during the next blight.  Any way it is something to ponder.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 30 mai 2010 - 08:49 .

[Sarah1281]

Most people have such cute romantic notions of what the Grey Wardens are none more so than Allistair, which is the reason for his tantrum.

That's not the only reason for killing the Architect, you know. We don't know if his experiments can be trusted, he's aready started a Blight, he makes such catostrophic mistakes, he doesn't really care what happens to humanity, we don't know how he intends to stop the Blights, smarter darkspawn are more dangerous and deadly darkspawn, he'll need to keep hunting GW in order to keep 'Awakening' darkspawn...there are a lot of non-naive reasons to kill him.

[Vicious]

lol epilogue texts are about as uncanon as it gets. They should all come with a * and a disclaimer in fine print



"SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE"