6700 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcmelloxbox]

Yes !!!

What will be the choice of Legendary guys? Paragon or Renegade ?

Let´s see ...

[Getorex]

BWBamboo wrote...

I know you're a tough soldier and all, but maybe if you got over your issues for a while and started up a FemShep character you would get a different idea of how a female lead could work...

I'm having fun with this, don't take it too personal. My tongue is mostly in my cheek.

And no, I don't pretend to be a female. I tried playing a Final Fantasy game once. Protagonist is some hot babe. Couldn't get into it. I just couldn't get into the story and I couldn't "feel" her. There was nothing me-ish in there. I just don't play games where I'm expected to be a female. Not because I'm "insecure in my masculinity" or anything (what does it say when guys claim they prefer fem Shep partly because they don't want to look at a "guy's ass for hours" as they play? Sheesh. My eyes aren't on my own Shep ass in the game so why are yours? Hell, my eyes, if they are on an ass, they're on Miranda's or Tali's, etc. Only natural afterall). It's because I'm a guy. I cannot EVER pretend to be a woman, no man can. You can only EVER be a man pretending to be a woman as you, a man, see a woman. No woman can pretend to be a man for the same reasons. I don't role play as a geeky little guy either. Can't relate and just don't care to. I don't role play as a woman, I don't role play as an alien, I don't role play as an AI (actually, I rarely roll play in the true RPG sense. ME is a rare exception). I role play as me in the situation provided. That's it. It is what I know (and, in fact, that is all ANYONE knows). Hell, even when I do an FPS, as much as I'm allowed, I play it as ME.

I don't need to "experience" fem Shep. She's the same as male Shep (which is partly why it is unbelievable in the first place) but with breasts and a nice ass, and gets to choose some male LI (or some vaguely humanoid alien guy). Big deal. I see nothing there to "experience".

Seriously. If I put on a pair of girl's panties and a bra, even go on to put on a dress and makeup, it in no way gives me the "experience of being a woman". The clothes wont fit me in the same way, wont FEEL the same way it does on an actual woman. It doesn't even give me the experience of pretending to be a woman. It is just me, a guy, dressed up in women's clothes. Hell, the thought isn't even remotely titillating to me so I don't get even a theoretical sexual satisfaction from it. There's no connection, no tie, no real shared experience - and can never ever be. At best you get a caricature of what a man would LIKE a woman to be (and vice versa if a girl plays a male Shep) but isn't. Hell, if most guys here who play fem Shep were honest about their dream woman as they play fem Shep, their fem Shep would be like a porn actress sexually but with brains. The game doesn't permit that so...they're stuck with something else.

So...I just see no point to it. Beyond that, I'm just having a little fun nipping at a certain subset of players here: sure, the rare actual female players but mostly the oddish male players with a near-fetish for a fem Shep. I find them funny.

Oh, and I also (in ME thus far) never play as anything BUT a soldier. That's just me. I can't get into "mage classes" that use magic. The biotics conceit is a magic bone EA Games/Bioware tossed into the game to quell any caterwauling that would ensue from the hardcare RPG types who just cannot accept an RPG, even scifi as opposed to fantasy RPG, that doesn't have some wizard or mage or witch class wielding harry potter magic in it). I tried playing as an infiltrator recently with the intent of then trying vanguard. Didn't get far because it didn't "fit". Didn't like the weapons limitations and having to practically rely on magic. A vanguard would be even worse in this regard. Nothing BUT magic for all practical purposes.

Modifié par Getorex, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:26 .

[Getorex]

Mcmelloxbox wrote...

Yes !!!

What will be the choice of Legendary guys? Paragon or Renegade ?

Let´s see ...

It will be a paragon with a mix of properly applied renegade. Seriously, audiences aren't going to want to watch some guy who is a total dick in most interactions, cruel, heartless, and virtually sociopathic. Properly applied renegade can be satisfying and even funny at times but nothing but? Totally unpleasant and unlikeable.

[Getorex]

TaliZorahVasNeema wrote...

I want to see Michelle Rodriguez in this movie as a bad ass chica!!

Was that the chick who was in the TV show "Lost" for a while and was one the helo pilot in Avatar?

If she can avoid RL drunk driving arrests she may be available though I cannot picture her in any of the main character roles. Doesn't fit.

Modifié par Getorex, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:31 .

[BWBamboo]

Why would I take it personal? I don't even think female Shepard is the obviously superior choice or that they should use her for the movie. All I'm saying is that female Shepard works extraordinarily well in the game. I started out with guy Shepard and lost interest in the game pretty quickly. For me, he just didn't work as a character - she does. I get that you'd rather play a guy and to be honest, I wouldn't start the game again just to switch gender because it doesn't really affect gameplay; so there is indeed nothing to "experience" in that regard. What there is to experience is that she works extremely well as a main character, and that is something that cannot be said for 90% of the (few) female main characters in other games (Cate Archer in No One Lives Forever comes to mind, and that's pretty much it).

[Getorex]

BWBamboo wrote...

Why would I take it personal? I don't even think female Shepard is the obviously superior choice or that they should use her for the movie. All I'm saying is that female Shepard works extraordinarily well in the game. I started out with guy Shepard and lost interest in the game pretty quickly. For me, he just didn't work as a character - she does. I get that you'd rather play a guy and to be honest, I wouldn't start the game again just to switch gender because it doesn't really affect gameplay; so there is indeed nothing to "experience" in that regard. What there is to experience is that she works extremely well as a main character, and that is something that cannot be said for 90% of the (few) female main characters in other games (Cate Archer in No One Lives Forever comes to mind, and that's pretty much it).

I am not really taking it personal - and am not attempting to attack you in any way (if it appears thus I apologize). I do get irritated at the fem Shep hardcore partisans sometimes, and so enjoy ribbing them and their explanations. I also don't mind the somewhat philosophical argument that CAN come of it. I also like to draw out the gender-neutral types that like to pretend there's no difference of note and thus extend it into the game and (this is key) wish to see that extended into the live action movie. It strikes of PC rather than reality which is fine in some movies that are beyond the suspension of disbelief from the Title. I don't want the ME movie(s) to be one of those. It's mainly, however, a discussion/argument sort of game I am playing.

[only1sgop]

I am not saying any names, but I am sad that this thread has become a gender war. It disgusts me The Mass Effect Series is Science Fiction! Fiction=Not real. So yes you can have a human(doesn't matter what gender as a vanguard) Yes, if the developers decide to use a female instead of a guy, the choice is up to them.

[Getorex]

only1sgop wrote...

I am not saying any names, but I am sad that this thread has become a gender war. It disgusts me The Mass Effect Series is Science Fiction! Fiction=Not real. So yes you can have a human(doesn't matter what gender as a vanguard) Yes, if the developers decide to use a female instead of a guy, the choice is up to them.

Seriously, I am sorry as I do not want to run a gender war. I will hold my tongue for the most part, though I may slip now and again against some fem Shep hardcore partisan. How (and if) they make their movie is their choice but their choice has real-world money/box office consequences that too many either poo-poo as irrelevant or ignore. There's also the question of the TYPE of movie to be made: all style and flash with superhero flavor (some danger of that given that it is the director of Batman Begins, a superhero movie, that is at the helm). This isn't (and shouldn't be) a superhero movie. It would be nice as well if it weren't all style and flash (Matrix got tiresome fairly quickly and it was nothing but style and flash).

[Getorex]

only1sgop wrote...

I am not saying any names, but I am sad that this thread has become a gender war. It disgusts me The Mass Effect Series is Science Fiction! Fiction=Not real. So yes you can have a human(doesn't matter what gender as a vanguard) Yes, if the developers decide to use a female instead of a guy, the choice is up to them.

Seriously, I am sorry as I do not want to conduct a gender war. I will hold my tongue for the most part, though I may slip now and again against some fem Shep hardcore partisan. How (and if) they make their movie is their choice but their choice has real-world money/box office consequences that too many either poo-poo as irrelevant or ignore. There's also the question of the TYPE of movie to be made: all style and flash with superhero flavor (some danger of that given that it is the director of Batman Begins, a superhero movie, that is at the helm). This isn't (and shouldn't be) a superhero movie. It would be nice as well if it weren't all style and flash (Matrix got tiresome fairly quickly and it was nothing but style and flash).

[Jin77]

This is GREAT news !!!! :-)

[Ross42899]

Most of the movies with female leads mentioned above are not bad because there is a female lead but they are bad because of very bad writing, editing & other production stuff. The stories often really suck. Many of the supporting actors are not very good. They use too much of crappy CGI. There are often huge plot holes. Characters seem to be "flat" without any character depth & backstory, etc.



So you see this has nothing and absolutely nothing do to, of which gender your main character is. There are enough of bad action/sci-fi movies with male lead actors as well. It's all about budget & movie production stuff.



For a good (sci-fi) movie it doesn't matter of which gender the lead role is. But for a good (sci-fi) movie you'll need:



- an exciting, well written story (without many plotholes) with surprises & turning points [best with some dramatic character scenes]

- great actions scenes

- decent actors

- characters with depth & believable, interesting background [you need to understand their motivations & you need to feel how they feel]

- well done SFX & VFX (no cheap, crappy CGI) & costumes & masks & make up effects

- and some great villains also don't hurt



For example look at the Alien movies with Sigourney Weaver. They are great movie classics and do not suck. And they all have a female lead actress! They are good movies because they do have what I mentioned above.

[XXVI]

There's no need to argue over gender.

It isn't a big deal considering the fact that Sheperd probably won't be in the movie anyways.



Just consider all the effort BioWare has put into respecting player choices in the past: In the KOTOR comics, the face of the first game's protagonist is never shown and gender pronouns are never used. More recently, in the Mass Effect: Redemption comic, Sheperd is literally carried around in a box, and one character even says "hard to tell if it's even a man or a woman".



BioWare will not include Sheperd in the film because they don't want to establish a "Canon Version" of Sheperd. Doing so would alienate the players who make different choices, thus defeating the whole purpose of an open ended RPG experience. More likely topics than Sheperd's exploits are the First Contact War against the Turians or some of Captain Anderson's history as an N7 agent, either of which would probably be way more interesting than an ME (1 or 2) rehash anyways.

[Shadelon]

This awesome news brightens my hopes for a live action (NON-anime) adaptation of Dragon Age.

[rinter_degan]

Going to try some optimism w/o the gender issues?



It would be cool if they chose two opposing Shepards, like a Paragon Sheploo and a Renegade FemShep, and wove the two storylines parallel. Not so you'd have to see every scene twice, but so you'd see Paragon or Renegade make a choice, but choose the less obvious outcome to show.



Ex: Renegade Shep: Aliens are gross: make out with me human LI!

Cut to: Paragon Shep kissing Liara.



Example:

Paragon Shep: Save the Council! *Saren fight*

Cut to: Destiny Ascension blowing up

Cut to: Renegade Shep affirming the choice, making some comment about how they had it coming, and then going off to fight Saren.



It'd be damn hard to make and keep coherent, but it'd be a cool way to tell the story.



But XXVI is probably right. Bioware tries to keep Shepard ambiguously-gendered, and for good reason.



I've been watching the Old Republic trailers going on about how "Revan" was a man, and feeling very sad. ;_;

[Omega-202]

XXVI wrote...

There's no need to argue over gender.
It isn't a big deal considering the fact that Sheperd probably won't be in the movie anyways.

Keep dreaming.  

XXVI wrote..
Just consider all the effort BioWare has put into respecting player choices in the past: In the KOTOR comics, the face of the first game's protagonist is never shown and gender pronouns are never used.

The face is never shown, but they DEFINITELY established Revan as male.  

XXVI wrote..
More recently, in the Mass Effect: Redemption comic, Sheperd is literally carried around in a box, and one character even says "hard to tell if it's even a man or a woman".

Even more recently, they went ahead and established Udina as the canon Councilor.  They've already begun canonizing choices.  

They never said they'd never go about  canonizing.  They just said they'd avoid it the best they could.  

XXVI wrote..
BioWare will not include Sheperd in the film because they don't want to establish a "Canon Version" of Sheperd. Doing so would alienate the players who make different choices, thus defeating the whole purpose of an open ended RPG experience. More likely topics than Sheperd's exploits are the First Contact War against the Turians or some of Captain Anderson's history as an N7 agent, either of which would probably be way more interesting than an ME (1 or 2) rehash anyways.

The number of people who have played ME:  2 million max
The number of people who have played and would care about canonization: 200,000 max
The number of people who care about the canonization and would avoid the movie because of it: 50,000

The number of people that Legendary Film Studios/ EA would need to see the movie in order for it to be a financial success: 50 million

The number of people pissed off by the canonization of Shepard is INSIGNIFICANT to the overall box office goal.  If they feel that they can better reach that audience goal using Shepard, they'll do it.  Pissing off 50k to draw in 50 million is a good trade.   

Modifié par Omega-202, 29 octobre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Getorex]

AwesomeName wrote...

XXVI wrote...

There's no need to argue over gender.
It isn't a big deal considering the fact that Sheperd probably won't be in the movie anyways.

Just consider all the effort BioWare has put into respecting player choices in the past: In the KOTOR comics, the face of the first game's protagonist is never shown and gender pronouns are never used. More recently, in the Mass Effect: Redemption comic, Sheperd is literally carried around in a box, and one character even says "hard to tell if it's even a man or a woman".

BioWare will not include Sheperd in the film because they don't want to establish a "Canon Version" of Sheperd. Doing so would alienate the players who make different choices, thus defeating the whole purpose of an open ended RPG experience. More likely topics than Sheperd's exploits are the First Contact War against the Turians or some of Captain Anderson's history as an N7 agent, either of which would probably be way more interesting than an ME (1 or 2) rehash anyways.

Sadly, they'll probably break the rule with this movie for the sake of money...  I heard earlier in this thread they bought the rights to ME1 specifically.

There's several issues that ya'll ignore. First, by the time the movie hits theaters, we will all have played out ME3. It will not be as if the franchise is continuing and anything they do in the movie will wreck current game players. By then you and everyone else will be on some NEW DA game, or whatever. ME3 will be history so it is irrelevant if they make a movie of the game and choose a Shepard that is at odds with anyone here. By then most of ya'll will have moved on to the next big game.

Second, they are NOT making this movie to please or entertain US. the ME fan and gamers. They are making it for the general audience worldwide. That means that MOST of the people who are the target audience have never heard of ME, have no clue what it is about, have no idea about the backstory, nothing (something like 99%). Putting out a fill-in movie or some side-movie that is "in" with the gamers but a total mystery to the vast majority of potential viewers would be crazy. The GAME, however, has a beginning, middle, and end. It has an arc. It coheres.

Of your two suggested non-game movies, the Anderson one is more likely than the first contact war, which is purely an "insider" theme. The game players are into that, the players understand it, the players don't need any context to make sense of it but the huge world of viewers don't have all that and a first contact war would just be this disconnected thing hanging out there that makes no sense and with no connection to anything. Note this as well: the first contact war from ME is yet another near direct idea theft from Babylon 5 which had a "First Contact War" between the humans and the minbari...let's not copy that into the theaters - bad form).

Modifié par Getorex, 30 octobre 2010 - 01:27 .

[Getorex]

Actually, I have been thinking about it and have actually changed my mind about the viability of a Fem Shep, with caveats.



The Shep in ME1 was a neutral Shep. Shep was competent, skilled, confident but in no way, at no point, was any of these attributes presented in a blatantly male or female manner (there ARE differences). A female Shep could work in ME1 but ME2 is problematic without changes.



ME1 Shep is a neutral Shep. ME2 Shep is clearly male. It shows in many little ways that are actually quite telling.



1) Shep cracks his knuckles menacingly to send the message "Do what I say or I'm going to beat the crap out of you and mop the floor with your remains." This is 100% guy.



2) Shep actually does beat the crap out of a guy or three and mops the floor with them. 100% guy.



3) Shep headbutts a Krogan. Headbutting is 100% guy but headbutting a Krogan is a pointless act that is 100% pointless toughguy gesture.



4) In LotSB (this is one almost painful to relate because it was actually ludicrous) Shep cracks his knuckles and says, "Guess we have to do this the hard way" and then proceeds to actually try to punch out the Shadow Broker. This is an explosively stupid, silly, ridiculous act but is 100% stupid, ridiculous guy. The Shadow Broker looks like he masses at least as much as a full-grown rhino, if not more. Not even the baddest assed toughguy is going to punch out a rhino. It is insanely ridiculous to the nth degree to have a female Shepard try this.



ME2 Shep is pure guy. All the official art and cover art = male Shep.

The action figure = male Shep.



Sigourney Weaver was solid in Alien and Aliens because her role was written for a woman. It was not a man's role into which they decided to stick a woman (without changing anything). At no point did she act like a man. She didn't punch anyone out, didn't threaten to punch anyone out, didn't toss people around, didn't body slam anyone, didn't headbutt anyone. She acted reasonably for a femal. Putting a woman into a role clearly written for a man is grating, obvious, and simply unbelievable. ME1 is OK for a woman but ME2 would have to be altered to fit a woman.

Other problems with ME2 with a female Shep: there are too many females in it already. Most of the crew is female. It would be an estrogen ocean with a female Shep and that is not going to go well with the target audience. It would be like an Oxygen channel movie. Some of the females would have to go and be replaced by HUMAN males.

Then there's romance issues. They are easy for a male Shep but problematic for a fem Shep.

First, a male Shep:

Ashley is out of the running for any romance. Period. She's enlisted, he's an officer. She's a direct chain-of-command subordinate, he's her commander. Illegal, unethical, stupid to get all gushy. Career ending in fact.

That leaves Liara. Easy, no problem. She's virtually a perfect human female with minor cosmetic differences. Perfectly acceptable to the audience. She's an associate rather than an inductee. She is voluntarily under Shep's command. It's an OK romance, though would still produce normal command-decision issues.

Female Shep has a problem: Kaiden is off limits for the same reason Ash is for male Shep. Liara is off-limits because, one word: LESBIAN. Kiss of death alert. A tough female military Shep lesbian SCREAMS man-hating Bull ******. Unacceptable to audiences.

Garrus is out. Too alien. Face it, if rendered true to game form he would NOT be an acceptable love interest to the general audience (nor to actual gamers). The "real" thing is way different from the cartoon version. The ONLY way Garrus can work is if they substantially redesign him for the movie. His skin has to be changed from rhino tough to human soft and smooth. His lips and mouth and teeth need to become human-normalish. His ass is currently nonexistent. His hips are articulated like an insect. They would have to become attractive human male in form.

Thane is in less need of alteration but still requires substantial humanization. He las to lose the rough, alligator-like ridges on his cheeks (hug him and put your eye out). His skin has to be softened/humanized, otherwise the reaction is "Ewww, she's making out with a snake!"

The OTHER alternative is no love interest. Can be done but it paints a fem Shep as a cold ****. Even Sigourney Weaver had humanizing relations in Alien and even more so in Aliens. In Alien, she clearly had warm feelings towards the captain. Not necessarily romantic (no hit of that) but she and he clearly liked each other and she showed warm human emotion. In Aliens, she and the marine Sgt were CLEARLY starting to feel warm for each other, plus she had Newt, the little girl, to use as a means of warming up her character with mother instincts showing up.

Finally, as with ME1, the most viable way to give a Fem Shep a romantic interest is to bring in an outsider male human.

There are consequences for choosing a fem Shep that don't exist for the default male Shep.

Modifié par Getorex, 30 octobre 2010 - 01:48 .

[KalSkirata999]

So by your logic women are incapable of cracking their knuckles and throwing punches.

[Getorex]

KalSkirata999 wrote...

So by your logic women are incapable of cracking their knuckles and throwing punches.

No, not at all. But it isn't intimidating and the MANNER of expressing threat is totally NOT female - the audience just wouldn't be able to take it seriously. Among women this behavior would likely work, but then you are dealing with complete equals: emotional/reactive equals and physical equals. That is just the way it is and there's nothing wrong with that. I know real world female cops, both civilian and military. Highly trained, of course, and packing guns. Civil cops carry their glock and have a 12-gauge behind the seat of their cruiser. The military cops carry M4s/M16s. NONE of them can pull off acting like a guy and dealing with people the way you expect a fem Shep to. EVERY one of them rely first on the authority of their badge and uniform, and if that ain't working, then on the authority of a gun.

A gun. It's the only way on a personal level. Even Dog the Bounty Hunter's tough, nasty trailer trash wife can't pull off what you expect...unless she pulls a gun.

Tough guys express/display their toughness DIFFERENTLY than tough females. It is a natural/unconscious/instinctual thing. Men and women ARE different in this regard. It isn't even that women often TRY this sort of natural communication and fail, they just don't even try and do it by other means...naturally and instinctively. Trying to paint a woman up as a man is grating and not generally believable, especially against large, powerful opponents AND NOT NECESSARY TO MAKE HER WORK IN THE ROLE. It is superhero-y and cartoonish. This shouldn't be a superhero movie nor cartoonish, but believable.

Here's an EXCELLENT tough girl model, for instance. Totally believable too: Noomi Rapace as Lisbeth in the foreign version of "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" and "The Girl who Kicked the Hornet's Nest". She is tough (very) but also still feminine, vulnerable, and kicks ass without acting like a guy to do it. Seriously, if you haven't seen it do. She is a fantastic, amazing actress (I can't sing her praises enough) and plays the role in literally oscar-winning style. Jaw dropping and breathtaking.

Another movie, "Courage Under Fire" had Meg Ryan as an Army helo pilot who was shot down with her crew in Desert Storm (Iraq War Episode I). They were downed deep in Iraq, far from friendlies. She doesn't survive the firefights with encroaching Iragi soldiers to be rescued but the rest of her crew does. An army investigator, Denzel Washington, is investigating the incident to determine if she should be awarded a silver star (I think it's that one). Through flashbacks based on the stories (and LIES) told by the survivors, who are clearly hiding something, what at first looked like cowardice on her part turns out to be "courage under fire" on her part and cowardice, primarily, by the "tough guy" door gunner on her crew. SHE was absolutely brave, strong, and resolute while he was panicky and ruthless in his cowardice. Her toughness and bravery was believable because it fit with her character as a woman. They didn't man her up and make her act like a man, they didn't need to (and it wouldn't have been believable or attractive). She is "real" (3D).

Another good movie, dual action leads: "Out of Sight", with George Clooney and Nicole Kidman. She is a civilian (CIA?) counter-terror analyst/expert and George Clooney is Army Intelligence. They don't man up Nicole and they don't girl up Clooney. They act in character for their role, both in terms of their jobs and in terms of the gender. They are working together to try to foil a terror plot involving the use of a dirty bomb in NYC (I think...and this was pre-9/11). They are both tough, competent, solid, but neither is a cartoon character and merely 2D.

Roles are ALWAYS written or adjusted for the sex of the person to play those roles. They have to be or you have a fake, 2D, caricature of people rather than real people. You have to change the dialog, the emotions expressed (and unexpressed) to match with the gender of the person you are writing it for. It's not rocket science.

A tough girl does NOT need to act indistinguishable from a man to be taken as tough. For hell's sake and there's no reason or value in ignoring differences - instead you USE them to make a real character.

I don't understand the desire, apparently, of many here for a cheap, cartoonish movie rather than a solid, good movie. We're talking the difference, in writing and reality style, between Doom, Underworld, Superman, and good solid movies like Bladrunner, Alien, Terminator.

Modifié par Getorex, 30 octobre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Getorex]

Ultimately, my argument is simply that Shep will be a male, COULD be a female if slightly modified, which the script WILL be anyway for a movie. They are NOT going to simply take the game script and add more dialog to it and that's it.



I hate to use the word "canonical" because is sounds like a f*ckin' religious thing but "canonically" Udina is the human counciller, Shepard is a male (all the announcement trailers, all the cover art, the writing - particularly in ME2), and LI...can't quite figure BUT I suspect it is Liara (certainly for the ME1 to movie).



The movie COULD be handled like a superhero-ish movie, which would be too bad, but it is a possibility given the director is known for his superhero movie "The Dark Night".

[dreaming_of_zion]

There will inevitably be strong female characters in this film. It just won't be Shepherd, for all the reasons that have already been established (the marketing is distinctly male-oriented).

Any awareness that people have of the Mass Effect universe will concern the role of a Male Shepherd. Thus, the majority of people who go to see the film will not expect/want a Female Shepherd.

Sorry for treading on the FemShep fan's toes but I personally can't see it happening. The powers that be will throw Ashley in as the "strong female character" in ME1, and then have Miranda fill that role in ME2.