14023 réponses à ce sujet

[Spartas Husky]

mander83 wrote...

I just ran into a "drag Ashley through the mud" thread and felt I should voice my support.

I play as a femShep and Ash has always been a favorite for so many reasons. I see her as a great friend for my Shepard. I also always romance Kaidan...so Virmire is never my favorite part of the game.

I feel like she and Kaidan attract a lot of negative attention, for whatever reason. I don't understand it.

Basically, Ashley is awesome. Y'all are awesome. 

In my opinion, Kaiden never really was that big of a character with me... not really sure why. Can't find in him the nerdy whiny super soldier personas I find in other games.

Duno why. Still yes Ash is awesome. Even after she broke my heart at horizon

[Badpie]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Yeah the whole "Ash is racist" thing is really old. If she was really racist she'd have done something drastic about the Alien crew members on the Normandy.

She is not racist... boderline yes, but not really racist.

best I think describes her is incredibly prejudice.

Prejudice? Give me a concrete example of her being prejudice, I'd love to see one.

She has ideas about other species that haven't necessarily been disproven to her.  She hasn't known her views aliens to ever be wrong.  At worst she is simply ignorant, having never interacted with aliens.  So prejudice is actually a pretty good word to describe her in that she has preconcieved judgements about people before she learns about them, something I feel like we all have to some extent.  I wouldn't even say "prejudice" is bad is wrong.  It's different from "racist."  Racist is learning all the things you need to know about these folks and hating them anyway, which is not the case for Ash.

I'm bored of the Ash is racist argument.  She's not.  The end.  I feel like this line of discussion will only invite the creeps who don't pay attention.

[Xilizhra]

Racist is learning all the things you need to know about these folks and hating them anyway, which is not the case for Ash.

Say what? It's completely possible to be racist (or, as is the case here, speciesist) and ignorant; in fact, that's probably the most common variant.

[Badpie]

Xilizhra wrote...

Racist is learning all the things you need to know about these folks and hating them anyway, which is not the case for Ash.

Say what? It's completely possible to be racist (or, as is the case here, speciesist) and ignorant; in fact, that's probably the most common variant.

What I was saying is that prejudice and ignorance are often the CAUSE of racism, but not the same thing.  But I suppose it is possible to learn and become less ignorant of a culture for example, but still just decide you're racist anyway.  Am I making sense?

In either case, I feel like Ash lacked knowledge and experience to allow her to grow.  Once she had it she was fine.  She never went anywhere near the racism (or speciesm) mark.

[ADLegend21]

Badpie wrote...

She has ideas about other species that haven't necessarily been disproven to her.  She hasn't known her views aliens to ever be wrong.  At worst she is simply ignorant, having never interacted with aliens.  So prejudice is actually a pretty good word to describe her in that she has preconcieved judgements about people before she learns about them, something I feel like we all have to some extent.  I wouldn't even say "prejudice" is bad is wrong.  It's different from "racist."  Racist is learning all the things you need to know about these folks and hating them anyway, which is not the case for Ash.

I'm bored of the Ash is racist argument.  She's not.  The end.  I feel like this line of discussion will only invite the creeps who don't pay attention.

That's a good point but I just see it as her being cautious, because Garrus could easily be giving up information to the Turian Heirarchy, the same for Wrex and the Krogan, Tali for the quarians, and Liara for the Asari. While that turns out not to be the case it's a worry the first time around. this line of discussion is old though and this shall be the end of it for me for the most part.


Have an Ash:

[Xilizhra]

Badpie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Racist is learning all the things you need to know about these folks and hating them anyway, which is not the case for Ash.

Say what? It's completely possible to be racist (or, as is the case here, speciesist) and ignorant; in fact, that's probably the most common variant.

What I was saying is that prejudice and ignorance are often the CAUSE of racism, but not the same thing.  But I suppose it is possible to learn and become less ignorant of a culture for example, but still just decide you're racist anyway.  Am I making sense?

In either case, I feel like Ash lacked knowledge and experience to allow her to grow.  Once she had it she was fine.  She never went anywhere near the racism (or speciesm) mark.

I feel that she's mildly speciesist and can give that up if you romance her and then Paragonize her.

[Mr_Commander_Shepard]

 ashley hug time:wub:

[Badpie]

I think of Ash as overly pragmatic. She's understandably playing the other side of the coin here. I think regardless of her views on other species she's simply asking the questions she feels like someone should be asking.



It would be like in the 80s if a US ship had some Soviet crew members. At the time, even though on paper you're all friends now there might still be some valid suspicions. Keep in mind it was 26 years ago the Alliance was fighting the Turians. Some people just haven't forgotten that, though some of them, like Ash take much less convincing to relax than others like Terra Firma (who are a pack of racist, bigoted jackals according to Ash).

[Mr_Commander_Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Badpie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Racist is learning all the things you need to know about these folks and hating them anyway, which is not the case for Ash.

Say what? It's completely possible to be racist (or, as is the case here, speciesist) and ignorant; in fact, that's probably the most common variant.

What I was saying is that prejudice and ignorance are often the CAUSE of racism, but not the same thing.  But I suppose it is possible to learn and become less ignorant of a culture for example, but still just decide you're racist anyway.  Am I making sense?

In either case, I feel like Ash lacked knowledge and experience to allow her to grow.  Once she had it she was fine.  She never went anywhere near the racism (or speciesm) mark.

I feel that she's mildly speciesist and can give that up if you romance her and then Paragonize her.

She is not a racist. Understand? Good.

[Kabanya101]

Ashley is one of my favorite characters, it was a shame that she didn't return as a character, but at least Liara did, even for a little

[Xilizhra]

Some people just haven't forgotten that, though some of them, like Ash take much less convincing to relax than others like Terra Firma (who are a pack of racist, bigoted jackals according to Ash).

Quite so. Ashley being a speciesist doesn't mean that she's a militant one; I said before that it's only mild. I also feel that the label has been unfairly demonized, since it's hard to use it in its proper sense (degrees of belief in your race's superiority, instead of plain rabid hatred).

[ADLegend21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Some people just haven't forgotten that, though some of them, like Ash take much less convincing to relax than others like Terra Firma (who are a pack of racist, bigoted jackals according to Ash).

Quite so. Ashley being a speciesist doesn't mean that she's a militant one; I said before that it's only mild. I also feel that the label has been unfairly demonized, since it's hard to use it in its proper sense (degrees of belief in your race's superiority, instead of plain rabid hatred).

or how about she's not raciest. listen to her dialogue with Wrex, Tali, Garrus, and Liara in the elevators. not racist at all and they get along fine.

[PrinceLionheart]

Xilizhra wrote...

Some people just haven't forgotten that, though some of them, like Ash take much less convincing to relax than others like Terra Firma (who are a pack of racist, bigoted jackals according to Ash).

Quite so. Ashley being a speciesist doesn't mean that she's a militant one; I said before that it's only mild. I also feel that the label has been unfairly demonized, since it's hard to use it in its proper sense (degrees of belief in your race's superiority, instead of plain rabid hatred).

Even then, Ash doesn't even believe that Humans are any superior than any other race. She just feels that you can't always be dependent on another species to support you. At worst, she's simply cynical. 

[DWH1982]

Ash thinks that most of the other races will look out for their own interests first. This isn't a "racist" or "speciesist" way of thinking. It's a realist way of thinking. I personally feel that there are very few examples of Ash being "racist" or "speciesist" outside of Ash expressing views based on this perfectly acceptable philosophy, yet she gets pegged as racist anyway.

I don't think her view of the galaxy has to be the case, but it is a valid argument. And given that I suspect Shepard will end up having to twist the arms of half the races in the galaxy to fight off the Reaper invasion of Earth, her views on this could end up being correct.

Modifié par DWH1982, 16 janvier 2011 - 03:20 .

[Mr_Commander_Shepard]

 

[Xilizhra]

or how about she's not raciest. listen to her dialogue with Wrex, Tali, Garrus, and Liara in the elevators. not racist at all and they get along fine.

It's one opinion. You don't air every opinion you have to every person you know, especially if they'd be offended by it.

Even then, Ash doesn't even believe that Humans are any superior than any other race. She just feels that you can't always be dependent on another species to support you. At worst, she's simply cynical.

It's not obvious, but it does seem to me that she mildly dislikes/distrusts nonhumans as a whole because they aren't human, but is presumably capable of individual exceptions. The time when she's most obvious about this is actually in ME2, though, with "I'm no fan of aliens."

[Mr_Commander_Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

or how about she's not raciest. listen to her dialogue with Wrex, Tali, Garrus, and Liara in the elevators. not racist at all and they get along fine.

It's one opinion. You don't air every opinion you have to every person you know, especially if they'd be offended by it.

Even then, Ash doesn't even believe that Humans are any superior than any other race. She just feels that you can't always be dependent on another species to support you. At worst, she's simply cynical.

It's not obvious, but it does seem to me that she mildly dislikes/distrusts nonhumans as a whole because they aren't human, but is presumably capable of individual exceptions. The time when she's most obvious about this is actually in ME2, though, with "I'm no fan of aliens."

Ashley is just saying that we shouldnt be relying on aliens, and she never once says she hates or dislikes aliens. She says that she does'nt trust them and that we shouldn't rely on them all the time, which is not being a racist. And "I'm no fan of aliens." does not mean she doesn't like them. You just don't understand her.
Ashley a racist? The script writer has dismissed that claim.

[Xilizhra]

And "I'm no fan of aliens." does not mean she doesn't like them.

...that is exactly what it means. It doesn't even say that she greatly dislikes them, but it does mean that she doesn't really like them either. I'm not entirely sure how else you parse this.

[DWH1982]

Xilizhra wrote...

And "I'm no fan of aliens." does not mean she doesn't like them.

...that is exactly what it means. It doesn't even say that she greatly dislikes them, but it does mean that she doesn't really like them either. I'm not entirely sure how else you parse this.

The present day equivilent would be saying "I'm no fan of the Russians," or "I'm no fan of the French."

It's nationalistic, not racist.

EDIT: I'd also like to mention how irked I am that this line shows up regardless of whether Ash was paragoned in ME1.

Way to carry over our decisions, Bioware.

Modifié par DWH1982, 16 janvier 2011 - 04:23 .

[Xilizhra]

I would call it the equivalent of saying "I'm no fan of Arabs." Politically motivated with a racial components.

[DWH1982]

We'll have to disagree. I read it as more of a 22nd version of "I'm no fan of foreigners." It's a tad too nationalistic for my taste, but I wouldn't call it racist.

I also call it another part of the crappy writing in the Horizon scene, but that's another issue entirely...

Modifié par DWH1982, 16 janvier 2011 - 04:29 .

[ADLegend21]

Just posted the second chapter of my Ashley fan fic Guns and Poems. It has a better worded version of her "racist" (sarcasm) comments in the first game.

[V-rex]

Franly, I hated the fact that she said that line. I already made a huge wall of text about this already so I won't go into too much detail but basically I'm annoyed because:



A. It kind of goes against her characterization in the first game. Yes, she did have a few problems and trust issues with aliens. but I never found myself thinking she would say a line like... THAT, for god's sake. I mean if a fan of Ashley played the first game and payed attention to her dialogue and understood why she had problems with aliens then it wouldn't be so bad, but here all she does is say she doesn't like aliens. Which in turn, only serves to validate the claims of the people who think that she is just some alien hater with no further depth then that.

(at least she still ackowledges that Cerberus goes too far)



B. It completely negates the entire point of her character arc in Mass Effect 1. What was the point of even having the capacity to improve her world views to be less cynical if you are just going to write them out anyway? It makes almost the bulk of her dialogue and everything we've learned about her and her flaws and her conflictions all suddenly rendered moot and now suddenly she's just an alien hater.



C. I shudder to think what they might turn her into in Mass Effect 3. Now that Chris has left Bioware and someone else took over her writing, they might (and indeed signs have shown evidence of this already) go ahead and 'Flanderize' her (look it up if you don't know) into the hateful stereotype of what so many people in the community see her as, a blind unreasoning alien hating human supremacist, and then leave it at that. We already have the 'no fan of aliens' line, and the deliberete misreading of the news about her (potential) death as basically a fan service joke for all those who got her killed off and now it seems her 'xenophobia' has become a sole defining trait of her character.

I am literally terrified that Mass Effect 3 is going to have her running around in a Klan Hood, demanding that humans and Turians go to seperate schools and that we should all just send the aliens to their doom because humans are just 'better'. If they were able to turn Tali into a cute little teenage geekling love interest for the desire of the fanbase, what's stopping them from making a monster out of Ashley for the same reason?



So yeah, that's what made the line really upset me. I don't want to see Ashley go a full 180 and turn into what the trolls see her as. To (sort of) quote Billy Joel, I want her just the way she is.

[DWH1982]

I'd give my left arm for a VS DLC that, as an added benefit, rewrites the scene on Horizon when you install it. That scene was just... wrong. It feels like whoever did the characters didn't spend time getting to know them first, and frankly didn't even care if they wrote them properly.

Like V-wrex, I worry about how the writers will portray Ash in ME3. She's my favorite character, but, if she undergoes Flanderization, she might start becoming a hero on Virmire.

Unfortunately, Kaidan is my second favorite character, so all that would do is let me see how they screw him up.

Modifié par DWH1982, 16 janvier 2011 - 04:52 .

[Xilizhra]

Remember that a lot can change in two years, and not all of it for the better. Perhaps she blames the Council, somehow, for Shepard's death and her opinion regressed. Perhaps her later military associates were the wrong crowd and Renegaded her.



But she honestly never seemed to like nonhumans in the first place. She could like them as people and wouldn't insult them to their faces, but they'd have an uphill battle to be trusted by her. And even if she does descend into hatred, it'll at least be motivated (though the motivations might not show up, resulting in tons of people speculating on what could have caused it).