14023 réponses à ce sujet

[Telemachus78]

LessThanKate wrote...

What seems to be a problem, not just for this game (been lurking in the Dragon Age side of this site)...is that people keep a rather simplistic view of things. A character disagrees with your character, your hero, and that makes them wrong. Seems to me that in Bioware games almost all the characters have their own motives, and some players don't seem to understand that. Or maybe they just don't think it relevant.

There is a lot of immature gamers out there who have never been in a relationship before and don't realize that confrontation makes a relationship better. Those people who are mature like Ash because she is a real person. Wow I just compared a real relationship to a video game I have lost touch on reality.

[MillaShepard]

lol! @Telemachus78 -- It's cool... Bioware did such a good job overall with these games that the relationships can be compared to real life situations. It's how, ultimately, we make the decisions we make in the game. With that said.... I agree that there are a lot of immature gamers out there, but i feel like the Ash-haters are mostly rebels without a cause, just aimlessly berating her to no end, with 'names' that make no sense for reasons they themselves don't understand..... In the end, i'm glad people like that don't understand Ash. It would be insulting to her character if they did.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Also posted this in the Kaidan-thread.

There is one thing I haven't really heard anyone's opinion of.

How
is everyone's feeling on the fact that the Virmire Survivor is angry at
Shepard for working for Cerberus, when the alliance (and the council)
did not only completely ignore the missing colonies and doing nothing at
all, but also chose to destroy Shepard's reputation?

I get why
Kaidan or Ashley is pissed that Shepard shows up out of nowhere and is
working for Cerberus. But I also get angry that they apperantly ignore
the alliance and council's (and perhaps their own) own failures and
betrayls. And the fact Shepard never really get to point those things
out for them.

[DWH1982]

1. The Alliance did investigate the missing colonies. That's what Ash/Kaidan is doing on Horizon.

2. Even though the Council itself ignores the problems, it seems that Anderson, at least, is taking them seriously.

3. How, exactly, did the Alliance and the Council "doestroy" Shepard's reputation? The most I see is that they decided he was wrong about the Reapers. Which, actually, is justifiable, given the lack of evidence. They can't embark on a major military response based entirely on the word of one man that "Reapers" - thought by nearly everyone in the galaxy to be a legend - are going to attack soon.

4. Neither the Alliance, nor the Council, can actually do much anything with many of the missing colonies because they're located in the Terminus Systems, which are outside of their jurisdiction. Too much Alliance activitiy in the Terminus Systmes would likely spark a war.

I think that Ash/Kaidan is legitimately pissed. I also think they're right. I respect them more than I do Shepard at this point, because they're the ones that refused to work for a group of terrorists.  The fact that I had no decision on this matter angers me, because it makes me feel like my paragon Shepard is a hypocrite and a sell out.

Modifié par DWH1982, 07 février 2011 - 11:31 .

[Funkcase]

Lizardviking wrote...

Also posted this in the Kaidan-thread.

There is one thing I haven't really heard anyone's opinion of.

How
is everyone's feeling on the fact that the Virmire Survivor is angry at
Shepard for working for Cerberus, when the alliance (and the council)
did not only completely ignore the missing colonies and doing nothing at
all, but also chose to destroy Shepard's reputation?

I get why
Kaidan or Ashley is pissed that Shepard shows up out of nowhere and is
working for Cerberus. But I also get angry that they apperantly ignore
the alliance and council's (and perhaps their own) own failures and
betrayls. And the fact Shepard never really get to point those things
out for them.

The fact Shepard doesen't point these things out is the problem to me.

Honestly I am fine with how they feel, it add's more depth to them, I am sick of everyone agreeing with Shepard, and kissing his/her ass.

Cerberus is a terrorist group, I hate terrorism, my uncle was murdered by the IRA when I was a kid, if I found out someone I knew joined the IRA, I would never forgive them, I would probably beat them to a pulp.

Ash/Kaidan maybe pissed at the Council, and the Alliance, but we only speak to them for a few minutes how would we know? We have to give them time to get there head around Shepard being alive, and working for Cerberus. Yes they dont know the full story, but we dont know the full story with them in the last two years. They are doing secret work, directly from Anderson, clearly they are up to something, and Shepard doesn't know the full story about what they have been up to yet, just how they dont know the full story about Shepard and Cerberus.

Modifié par Funkcase, 07 février 2011 - 11:35 .

[DWH1982]

I effing hate being Cerberus' errand boy in ME2. I sincerely hope that ME3 gives me the opportunity to hollow them out from the inside. I don't care if it makes Miranda leave the squad or not. I like her, but if she has a problem she can go.

I agree with Funkcase, it's nice to see that Ash/Kaidan at least will stand up for their values. I do think that both Ash and Shepard were a little wrong on Horizon, but given Shepard's wooden response, and who he was working for, I'd place him with, say, 70-80% of the blame.

Modifié par DWH1982, 07 février 2011 - 11:38 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

DWH1982 wrote...

1. The Alliance did investigate the missing colonies. That's what Ash/Kaidan is doing on Horizon.

2. Even though the Council itself ignores the problems, it seems that Anderson, at least, is taking them seriously.

3. How, exactly, did the Alliance and the Council "doestroy" Shepard's reputation? The most I see is that they decided he was wrong about the Reapers. Which, actually, is justifiable, given the lack of evidence. They can't embark on a major military response based entirely on the word of one man that "Reapers" - thought by nearly everyone in the galaxy to be a legend - are going to attack soon.

4. Neither the Alliance, nor the Council, can actually do much anything with many of the missing colonies because they're located in the Terminus Systems, which are outside of their jurisdiction. Too much Alliance activitiy in the Terminus Systmes would likely spark a war.

I think that Ash/Kaidan is legitimately pissed. I also think they're right. I respect them more than I do Shepard at this point, because they're the ones that refused to work for a group of terrorists.  The fact that I had no decision on this matter angers me, because it makes me feel like my paragon Shepard is a hypocrite and a sell out.

1: One soldier and a couple of defence towers after two years and hundreds of thousand people gone isn't impressive, it's almost insulting. What's worse is that Ashley's stationing on Horizon was more because it was possible Shepard would show up with Cerberus.

2: True. Anderson tries his best, but doesn't have much to show for it.

3: Spin his warnings about the Reapers around and make him sound like a crazy guy?

4: The council is voting down to grant more resources and intel (we are not talking about sending warships) to investigate the colonies. Despite the fact that it's a council member race being under attack.

[Raanz]

Lizardviking wrote...

Also posted this in the Kaidan-thread.

There is one thing I haven't really heard anyone's opinion of.

How
is everyone's feeling on the fact that the Virmire Survivor is angry at
Shepard for working for Cerberus, when the alliance (and the council)
did not only completely ignore the missing colonies and doing nothing at
all, but also chose to destroy Shepard's reputation?

I get why
Kaidan or Ashley is pissed that Shepard shows up out of nowhere and is
working for Cerberus. But I also get angry that they apperantly ignore
the alliance and council's (and perhaps their own) own failures and
betrayls. And the fact Shepard never really get to point those things
out for them.

Well I think a lot of that has to do with future content and storytelling.  We look at the encounter on Horizon as something that might happen to us in real life and what we should or would have said.  I'm betting that the omission of any logical exchange is due to the fact that these details will be wrapped up in upcoming content.
Think about how Liara treated Shepard on Illium before the Shadow Broker stuff came out.  Very cold, very sterile, very nondescript.  Putting myself in a real situation like that, I would have not left that office until I got some real answers, not go around hacking into terminals for a person who basically just ignored a person that she/it had expressed some deep emotions for.  It was all a precursor, or should I say convenient omissions that got played out in the downloadable content.  It all makes perfect sense to me.
It's all about the lack of content in ME2, and the lack of options in ME2 concerning Kaidan/Ashley that makes me confident of upcoming VS content.
Shepard's "unloading" will come.

[DWH1982]

Lizardviking wrote...

1: One soldier and a couple of defence towers after two years and hundreds of thousand people gone isn't impressive, it's almost insulting. What's worse is that Ashley's stationing on Horizon was more because it was possible Shepard would show up with Cerberus.

2: True. Anderson tries his best, but doesn't have much to show for it.

3: Spin his warnings about the Reapers around and make him sound like a crazy guy?

4: The council is voting down to grant more resources and intel (we are not talking about sending warships) to investigate the colonies. Despite the fact that it's a council member race being under attack.

1.  One soldier sent to a colony of break away humans in the Terminus Systmes, where, again, the Alliance has no jurisdiction and where a larger force would likely spark a war.

2.  As far as we know.  He doesn't say much.

3.  Some of it's just that one or two members of the Council (the Turian, for example) who are jerks.  However, Shepard probably doesn't need them to spin his words around to make him sound crazy. How do you think it would sound if a veteran military operative showed up before the U.S. Congress, or before the UN, claiming that the Earth was about to be invaded by aliens, and providing no proof that this is the case? No matter what he did in the past, he'd be justifiably mocked/dismissed as crazy.

That's the same situation that Shepard faces with the Reapers. He has no evidence that what he's saying is true. I actually think that it would be irresponsible for the Council to engage in a large scale military mobilization on the word of one man who fails to produce evidence of his claims.

4. Yes, but they're infrequent attacks on scattered human colonies, not a full scale invasion, and Council members are expected to be able to take care of their own.  Also, again, many, if not most, of the colonies are outside of Council jurisdiction, in a place where any large scale response would risk sparking a war. I hate to say this, but any human colonists, like on Horizon, who opt to leave Citadel Space and the Alliance have no reason whatsoever to expect the Alliance or the Council to help them if they're attacked.

I do recognize that the Alliance just asked for more resources and intel, and I would have preferred if the Council gave it to them. But Council resources are likely limited, and have to be reserved for threats that they are a little more certain might pose a risk to all of Citadel Space.  That seems more like their job - focus on common threats.  Given that the attacks have been infrequent and on humans, the Council probably views it as a "take care of your own" type situation.

Modifié par DWH1982, 08 février 2011 - 12:09 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

DWH1982 wrote...
4. Yes, but they're infrequent attacks on scattered human colonies, not a full scale invasion, and Council members are expected to be able to take care of their own.  Also, again, many, if not most, of the colonies are outside of Council jurisdiction, in a place where any large scale response would risk sparking a war. I hate to say this, but any human colonists, like on Horizon, who opt to leave Citadel Space and the Alliance have no reason whatsoever to expect the Alliance or the Council to help them if they're attacked.

For one they aren't infrequent. Not if we have to take ME2's word for it. Not only that, the faction that are capturing the coloniest are apperently in possesion of very advance technology. Granting them the ability to go in and take everything without a trace. That alone should cause some sort of reaction.

[Batlass8]

Not to cut off an interesting conversation, but it seems to me that this discussion has taken more of an Alliance/Council turn and is less Ash focused. Perhaps it would be best moved to a new thread or PM?



Ash is worth staying on topic!

[StaffSgt. Dignam]

Batlass8 wrote...

Not to cut off an interesting conversation, but it seems to me that this discussion has taken more of an Alliance/Council turn and is less Ash focused. Perhaps it would be best moved to a new thread or PM?

Ash is worth staying on topic!

Yeah, thanks Batlass.  Let's not argue fellas, let's spread the Ash love!

And as for the Virmire Survivor dlc, I think that we can dream up ideas all day, but won't know anything about it until the bioware techies come out of the bat-cave and let us have some info.

Bioware put up a wall of silence for a while, but when the final product arrives, they usually blow all expectations out of the water.  I will give them that.

[MillaShepard]

^^ I'm still confident that we'll be taken care of when it comes to the dlc.

on that note... If Ashley becomes part of the crew in ME3 how do you guys think she'll respond to having an AI on board?

[StaffSgt. Dignam]

MillaShepard wrote...

^^ I'm still confident that we'll be taken care of when it comes to the dlc.
on that note... If Ashley becomes part of the crew in ME3 how do you guys think she'll respond to having an AI on board?

I think that she would be fine, but she would be suprised by the more lax style aboard the SR2 in general.  I liked that addition in your story where she was kind of like when people like Jack kept interrupting other people. 
Any other Alliance brass in charge who discover an AI on board can suck it up and deal.

[MillaShepard]

StaffSgt. Dignam wrote...
I think that she would be fine, but she would be suprised by the more lax style aboard the SR2 in general.  I liked that addition in your story where she was kind of like when people like Jack kept interrupting other people. 
Any other Alliance brass in charge who discover an AI on board can suck it up and deal.

That part actually made me laugh.  The look i picture her having in that scene is similar to the look she gets if Shep asks her and Liara if he can have them both in ME1. 

Shepard: Can't i have you both?

Liara stares at the wall. It's obvious the good Dr. is seriously considering it.

Ashley's eyebrows raise in surprise, the shock on her face replacing all previous emotion.
Ashley: In your dreams Commander.

lol, priceless..

^thanks for the info Sgt.  I feel similarly, and just wanted to know what other Ashoholics thoughts were on the subject.

[V-rex]

Batlass8 wrote...

@Flamewielder: The only change I would make to your post is that *I* want to be the one who smacks Shep. I miss Ash!

To alleviate my sorrow...Ash hug!

I LOVE this picture.

EDIT: Also I get the impression (from what I've heard in Mass Effect) that Ashley is working with Anderson to try to convince the Council about the Reapers. The reasoning I have is that according to Anderson:

A. By sending the report from Horizon Ashley actually confirmed Shepard's story about the Collectors
B. She also wasn't able to find any evidence to present to the Council to suggest the Reapers were involved or even that they exist. But clearly she tried, otherwise Anderson wouldn't have mentioned it.

This to my mind gives off the idea that Ashley is and has been for the longest time working with Anderson to try and convince the Council of the Reaper threat but thus far hasnt been having any luck. It sounds like it has potential for an interesting plot device later on down the line anyway.
I know I'm kind of grasping at straws but that's all Bioware have left for me so I'll grasp away. I'd rather do that then just let this whole situation turn Ashley, with all her flaws and strengths and character development, into just 'a b*tch' with no reason or qualification added other than 'she denied the Reapers 'cause she's a b*tch'.

I would rather see a redeemable reason behind her logic, not just let the hideous trolls of the internet get what they want.

Ashley still probably sides with the Alliance because of course she's Alliance to the core and because she doesn't like/trust Cerberus. Considering Cerberus has only a slightly worse reputation then that of a puppy murderer it's not hard to see why that is. However she still apologizes for what she says and admits that she understands what Shepard is trying to do, so combine that with the fact that she actually helped confirm his story and has been looking for evidence to support him... tells me that she is most certainly still on 'his side'.

Modifié par V-rex, 08 février 2011 - 06:52 .

[Batlass8]

@StaffSgt. Dignam: I can assure that [sadly] the devs are not in the batcave. If they were, we'd already have some Ash DLC! }: )

[Lord Zeuss]

MillaShepard wrote...

StaffSgt. Dignam wrote...
I think that she would be fine, but she would be suprised by the more lax style aboard the SR2 in general.  I liked that addition in your story where she was kind of like when people like Jack kept interrupting other people. 
Any other Alliance brass in charge who discover an AI on board can suck it up and deal.

That part actually made me laugh.  The look i picture her having in that scene is similar to the look she gets if Shep asks her and Liara if he can have them both in ME1. 

Shepard: Can't i have you both?

Liara stares at the wall. It's obvious the good Dr. is seriously considering it.

Ashley's eyebrows raise in surprise, the shock on her face replacing all previous emotion.
Ashley: In your dreams Commander.

lol, priceless..

^thanks for the info Sgt.  I feel similarly, and just wanted to know what other Ashoholics thoughts were on the subject.

That scene has some of Ash's all-time greatest lines. Of all time.

"I hope you two--or however many you end up with--will be happy, Shepard." Just absolutely SCATHING.

[Xilizhra]

What would Ashley do if it turned out that Cerberus was a major power within the Alliance, perhaps guiding it at its highest levels?

[Flamewielder]

A good question. Ashley is an example of being pro-humanity because it makes sense from a survival of the species point of view. She opposes Terra Firma's (and Cerberus) brand of radicalism, fueled by irrational xenophobia. She certainly opposes the amoral means Cerberus has employed to push its agenda, which any decent person would. One of the main reason Ashley is still my canon LI is that she is heroic while still fairly representative of the "average" human mindset in the ME universe. Good intentionned, generally law-abiding, mistrustful of alien motivations (something I expected from her family background anyway). The Alliance is the only legitimate organization defending Humanity's interests on the galactic stage, therefore Ash (and paragon Shep) back the Alliance.

She views her service to the Alliance as a service to all humans and bears a healthy miststrust of aliens and their motivations (she distrusts politicians even more, showing a cynical but sadly realistic view of the universe). She migh be disillusionned about any key personnel "corrupted" by Cerberus, but I don't think she'd be disillusionned by the Alliance itself. There is nothing wrong about the Alliance's stated goals and values. You can always get rid of people trying to co-opt your organization for their personnal gain or to push their radical agenda. My guess is she'd do her darndest to get any Cerberus sympathizer court-martialed, or killed (if resisting arrest).

Ash is demonstrably a people person. She serves because she cares. She'll fight people who don't. You can expect her to defend (in priority) 1)family 2)LI and friends 3)humanity 4)alien allies. I just can't see anything wrong with that... and I play paragon!

[Xilizhra]

Actually, my own Shepard no longer backs the Alliance fully because she no longer trusts it.



But what if Cerberus is deeper than that? What if removing all of its supporters would cause Alliance leadership to collapse, possibly needing something completely new to build it up?



As an aside, my preferred defense priority is "the most people possible regardless of who or what they are."

[Flamewielder]

Given that Cerberus was dealt a serious blow in the canon continuity, prompting accusations of treason against Anderson for selling Cerberus (and Alliance military sympathizers) out to the turians, I'm guessing that's unlikely.

We should also distinguish between the Earth Systems Alliance and its military branch. We know the Cerberus-backed Terra Firma has done exceedingly well in the polls and, while still not in power, is a serious contender to Alliance leadership. We also know that Cerberus has/had contacts among the Alliance military, and at some point swallowed up the Black-Ops Alliance section of the same name (which was probably created by Cerberus moles in the first place).

So my personal take on this: Ash will try to fix what she can in the Alliance military, with whomever is willing to give her a hand. The Alliance military is her life, she won't give up on it or its ideals of service. She certainly wouldn't give up on Humanity, I think she'd rather die fighting on Earth like her Dog than turn her back on her species and run to safety. And to be honest, my War Hero Shepard would die on Earth too, if it came to sacrificing it to save the Galaxy (and perhaps a bunch of human colonies to preserve the species).

Running off to the aliens sounds like something TIM would do... I mean, renegades (like roaches) excel at survival. TIM wouldn't back what he percieved as a lost cause; he'd sacrifice Earth and run if it meant he could save a few colonies. He might even be made a hero for it... posthumously, if a Council Spectre ever caught him.

But if you're asking if Ash would reverse her attitude towards Cerberus if it turned out the Alliance had been in cahoots with Cerberus all along, no, I don't think she'd compromise her principles. She'd rather die like Kohoku than collaborate with criminals, but not before trying all she could to clean out the garbage.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 08 février 2011 - 09:09 .

[Lord Zeuss]

Flamewielder wrote...

*mostly snip*

But if you're asking if Ash would reverse her attitude towards Cerberus if it turned out the Alliance had been in cahoots with Cerberus all along, no, I don't think she'd compromise her principles. She'd rather die like Kohoku than collaborate with criminals, but not before trying all she could to clean out the garbage.

Well said, Flame.

[MillaShepard]

Flamewielder wrote...

But if you're asking if Ash would reverse her attitude towards Cerberus if it turned out the Alliance had been in cahoots with Cerberus all along, no, I don't think she'd compromise her principles. She'd rather die like Kohoku than collaborate with criminals, but not before trying all she could to clean out the garbage.

Agree.  I think Ash would act accordingly knowing she never personally sacrificed her own principles.  In this case as far as she's concerned, she's been working for an honerable organization and has done nothing to regret her actions.   I do think she'd be more or less ready to shove the front end of her assault rifle up the back end of Cerberus and any Alliance personel involved...   

[Xilizhra]

Would Ashley ever ask/beg for aid from the rest of the Council given the attack on Earth?