14023 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Zeuss]

Xilizhra wrote...

Who comes with you after Virmire?

Ash and Wrex. Between their combined firepower, they keep even my weakling *biotic* Sheps alive.

[Chignon]

I found this on dA - I hope it hasn't been posted before:



Mass Effect Oils - Ashley by *Sean-D-Omega

[Flamewielder]

I'd have to say "I'm no fan of aliens" =/= "I still remember where my loyalties are". And if you told a salarian that you thought their survival more important than your own species, he'd probably think you have issues...

Mordin: "Flattered... *snif* ...but not convinced"

No one "cures" Ashley of her so-called xenophobia because it is NOT a disease. And I argue it is a character trait, not a flaw. Nor is it hatred directed at aliens. They're just playing in a different team, in a league called "Council Space". Not that I'd expect anyone who hasn't played ME1 to get it...

Every player's Shepard is different of course... some like the Earthborn Sole Survivor may feel so utterly detached from humanity that they consider another species more "humane" than us. That's fair, but so is expecting some human NPC's to still believe in Humanity's humanity. The difference is how you'll play the game: will you play fair and be a good sport (Paragon) or will you cheat and bully/bribe the umpire (Renegade).

I've played ME1 several times, always a paragon/paragade, and I've seen NOTHING to imply Ashley Williams was not prepared to play fair. She's a realist and , as far as I know, has just as much fun playing "Council Space" than your average turian.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 20 février 2011 - 11:07 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm saying that everyone's survival is equally important. Is this so hard to grasp?

[Lord Zeuss]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm saying that everyone's survival is equally important. Is this so hard to grasp?

Most of the regulars here already know you feel this way.

[Rdubs]

How many of you have played that game Dragon Age Origins? Looking for something to take my mind off waiting for ME3 to come out I bought DA:O a couple days ago but only put a couple hours in before it lost my interest. ME has spoiled me, I don't like how in DA you dont hear the player talk when you select what to say.

If you all liked it then maybe I will give it a few more hours.

[Batlass8]

Rdubs wrote...

How many of you have played that game Dragon Age Origins? Looking for something to take my mind off waiting for ME3 to come out I bought DA:O a couple days ago but only put a couple hours in before it lost my interest. ME has spoiled me, I don't like how in DA you dont hear the player talk when you select what to say.
If you all liked it then maybe I will give it a few more hours.

I actually really enjoy DAO...it's the reason I gave ME a try.  However, I'd suggest taking this discussion elsewhere to keep the thread on-topic.

Ash Hug!!

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm saying that everyone's survival is equally important. Is this so hard to grasp?

That's a perfectly understandable point of view, Xil. It's just not a point of view shared by everyone and certainly not the Turians who deployed the genophage against the pig-headed Krogans (the Salarians only intended to threaten the Krogans with it).

To me, this suggests that the majority of individuals forming a species look after their own species survival first, but not to the exclusion of all the others. I'm sure you'll agree that a fair alliance has every member sharing the risk/costs involved. With her Dog and Bear allegory, Ashley reminds us that we should make certain we're never used as a Dog, like the Krogans were. If she goes hunting with a turian, she'll make sure she's got a gun as big as the turian's. Hopefully the turian will remember to stand his ground and shoot and not just run from the Bear in ME3.

In terms of cross-cultural interaction, Ashley could be considered a "Rejector" while Xil's Shepard could be considered an "Adopter". Neither is bad or evil or saintly... and I wouldn't blame Ash for choosing to save a human over a turian, assuming she couldn't save both.

[Batlass8]

@Flamewielder: Although I usually find myself agreeing with what you say, I have to admit that right now I just love you for not only understanding the dog/bear analogy, but actually applying it to the krogan and providing a measure of legitimacy for Ashley's mistrust of the Council.

[Xilizhra]

That's a perfectly understandable point of view, Xil. It's just not a point of view shared by everyone and certainly not the Turians who deployed the genophage against the pig-headed Krogans (the Salarians only intended to threaten the Krogans with it).

The krogan were a threat to everyone without the genophage, including themselves ("genophage or genocide!"). Ultimately, it does seem to have saved the most lives. I don't know if I would have done the same thing, but I won't fault the turians too much.

With her Dog and Bear allegory, Ashley reminds us that we should make certain we're never used as a Dog, like the Krogans were.

This... doesn't work. At all. The Council was perfectly nice to the krogan after they beat the rachni, and then the krogan tried to conquer the galaxy themselves. The Krogan Rebellions were the krogan's fault. Humans would only get similar treatment if they tried to do the same thing.

[jeweledleah]

imagine this situation. your family is in danger. as well as your neighbors across the street, whom you neither like nor dislike, you simply don't know them very well. who is going to be your priority to help? strangers? or your family?

here's another one, police force. sure they are here to serve and protect, but if there's a danger to their own, who do you think will get the priority treatment? civilians or other cops? don't think idealistically, think realistically.

Ashley is a realist and she's honest about it.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 21 février 2011 - 01:08 .

[Xilizhra]

For the first question: it depends on which has more people in it. If it's a tie, I'll go with my family because it's likely that, assuming that the danger killing them would cause equal amounts of pain to both sides, that the added pain to my family of being abandoned by me would be greater than the plain death of the neighbors. This is ignoring all logistical problems caused by needing to run across the street, of course.



For the second, assuming equal numbers, then yes, cops. If there are more civilians, however... I don't quite know what the procedure is supposed to be, but if they abandoned a greater number of civilians to save a smaller number of cops, I'd call them out on it, yes. In addition to the numbers issue, the cops are in a job that assumes danger anyway.

[Lord Zeuss]

Batlass8 wrote...

I'd suggest taking this discussion elsewhere to keep the thread on-topic.

Ash Hug!!

[AuggyDoggysan]

[AuggyDoggysan]

Another great animated picture of Ash by Shadow.

[DarthRic]

Modifié par DarthRic, 21 février 2011 - 02:40 .

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...

With her Dog and Bear allegory, Ashley reminds us that we should make certain we're never used as a Dog, like the Krogans were.

This... doesn't work. At all. The Council was perfectly nice to the krogan after they beat the rachni, and then the krogan tried to conquer the galaxy themselves. The Krogan Rebellions were the krogan's fault. Humans would only get similar treatment if they tried to do the same thing.

The Krogans were "uplifted" into galactic society by the Salarians for the express purpose of providing "supersoldiers" to fight the rachni. They were the Council's Dog to the Rachni Bear. The Turians and Salarians will tell you it was "necessary", that there was "no other way"... and they'll say the same if you mention the genophage.

Ashley, along with a fair proportion of the Alliance people (including Anderson), argue that Humanity must look after its own and not expect a free lunch from the Council races. That not xenophobia, it's plain realism. As Grunt says: "Offer one hand, but arm the other... Wise Shepard..."

[Xilizhra]

The Turians and Salarians will tell you it was "necessary", that there was "no other way"... and they'll say the same if you mention the genophage/

Not to hear Mordin tell it. He explicitly says that uplifting the krogan was a huge mistake. In fact, I've never heard anyone say that there was no other way to beat the rachni than to uplift the krogan; had the Council found the turians beforehand, they might have been able to win just as well and the krogan would never have been a problem at all. The Council screwed up with the uplifting; however, the reason it was a screwup is because the krogan were so violent. The Council did nothing morally wrong, just strategically.



And it's obvious that humans won't get a free lunch from the Council. However, while the Alliance should be mindful of its own interests, it should also be such for the interests of everyone else. Making friends is pragmatic as well as a good thing to do.

[Lord Zeuss]

@jeweledleah/@flamewielder: Thank you for your perspectives, but please, let's stay on topic..

[Xilizhra]

How isn't this on-topic? Ashley's beliefs regarding Alliance standing are a major part of her character.

[Lord Zeuss]

@Xilizhra: Your last three posts have been about krogans, genophages, and using the number in a group to determine which to save. This is straying off-topic. Incredibly, this is not the first time I've seen this discussion crop up in here.

[Xilizhra]

But there are so very many ways in which to cover the to--okay, I'm full of crap and we've seen this over and over again. I'll stop if I must.

[Batlass8]

Xilizhra wrote...

How isn't this on-topic? Ashley's beliefs regarding Alliance standing are a major part of her character.

That's completely true.  But we're veering into a discussion of the krogan/genophage.