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[V-rex]

GodWood wrote...

I stumbled across a post in this thread and I must say it's definitely an ... odd interpretation of Ash and her 'target fans'

I've always had this theory that Ashley is the archetypical military/hillbilly babe, there to please the group of ethnocentric players who don't enjoy aliens (and other cultures in general). I don't have anything against conservatives (or Ashley for that matter), but it always struck me as odd how anybody can still like Ashley especially after that episode with Wrex. I mean, seriously, why would you wanna play a space opera RPG if you don't like aliens in the 1st place? Yet I understand Ashley has a substantial fanbase, and it'd be interesting for me to see where these ppl came from, I suspect she's more popular in America than anywhere else.

I'm purely saying this out of my cultural character - I live in Hong Kong, and our culture is fairly liberal/progressive for the most part. And my circle of RL friends who play ME all grew to dislike her because of that. It's difficult for us, having grown up dealing with Chinese/white/S Asians/SE Asians/Japanese ppl everyday, to comprehend outright racism (not that we're racist-free, but). And her character subsequently loses relevance to us.

... sigh, I hate it when people give that argument.
Apart from that in and of itself it's a gross misinterpretation of the character and her views regarding aliens, even if it were true it wouldn't mean anything.
I really like Hannibal Lecter as a character, it doesn't mean that I eat people. Just because the character exchibits certain actions and behaviors does not mean that I condone, empathise with or find said character traits appealing. Yes I like Ashley but I also like Wrex, Garrus, Legion, Thane, Samara, Grunt and Mordin too. I love aliens, I'm an alien enthusiast.

Frankly I just hate it when I hear this argument. People tell me that obviously I must be right wing and must hate aliens in games and hence must hate other cultures in real life and be only comfortable with a 'pure' ethnic group. Hello people, I live in Perth City Western Australia.
In case you didn't know, Perth is the most ethnically diverse city in all of Australia. We get people from all over Europe, Asia, Africa and the united Kingdom and all points in between flocking over here. My two closest male friends are respectively from the Phillipines and Europe. I'm also friends with dozens of asian people and Indian people.
I love cultural diversity, if I only hung out with white people my social circle would be very limited.

Seriously, how can people make a harsh generalization about an entire fanbase (oh obviously they made a 'hillbilly' character so hence everyone who incidently likes said character MUST be hillbilies as well) and then talk about it like they've stated an absolute fact?
I mean on the base level if Ashley did exist to please the racists, why include the option to change her views?

I liked Ashley because she was a sexy, badass sassy wise cracking female soldier who was good with a rifle. Her views on aliens really weren't a selling point to me save for that it was a character flaw. Something about the character that is problematic and makes them feel real.

Sorry but I can't really think straight right now, this person's post has certainly annoyed me. Get the character wrong, make the fanbase of said character into a harsh strereotype and then argue as if the harsh stereotype strawman argument you created is correct... and then you argue that Ashley is the close minded one.

Sorry, God Wood this wasn't directed at you. It was directed at whoever made that post originally.

[GodWood]

V-rex wrote...
Sorry, God Wood this wasn't directed at you. It was directed at whoever made that post originally.

Yeah I was going to respond to the post myself but realised there was a hell of a lot to say and I really couldn't be bothered to be the one to do it.

Modifié par GodWood, 13 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[V-rex]

Oh hey almost forgot, new page, new Ash fan art:


:wub:

Now see, THAT'S why we love Ash. Tough and sexy and with a nice amount of great wisecracks.

Man, can't believe people can't understand THAT.

Modifié par V-rex, 13 avril 2011 - 10:20 .

[Phobius9]

I'm bored, so here's some questions for you all:

What do you think Ash's favourite colour is?

What do you think Ash's idea of a good night out is?

What kind of music do you think she likes?

What kind of books do you think she likes reading? (aside from poetry)

Do you think she has/has had a pet? If so, what kind?

What's her favourite food?

Do you think she has any artisitic merit? She likes poetry, but do you think she's any good at writing it? Painting perhapes?

What's Ash's idea of a great holiday?


No real reason behind asking these, just passing the time...

[lawp79]

Phobius9 wrote...

I'm bored, so here's some questions for you all:

What do you think Ash's favourite colour is?

What do you think Ash's idea of a good night out is?

What kind of music do you think she likes?

What kind of books do you think she likes reading? (aside from poetry)

Do you think she has/has had a pet? If so, what kind?

What's her favourite food?

Do you think she has any artisitic merit? She likes poetry, but do you think she's any good at writing it? Painting perhapes?

What's Ash's idea of a great holiday?


No real reason behind asking these, just passing the time...

Colour = Black (at least in my game she rocks black armor)

Good night out = A night in Flex showing the commander her"dance moves"

Music = Hardcore house music for her to dance to, heavey rock for her to let off steam, and alittle classical to unwind.

Books = hmm this is tough, I have always thought that Ash was a classical romantic at heart so I would say romeo and juliet Shakespear.

Pet = I would say a a cat as they are very independent I think she would respect that along with their beauty. (I would of said dog but the line in Me1 re the dog threw me slightly)

Food = Noodles (know idea why, I can just see her with chop sticks)

Artistic? = No she says that others say what she means better than she can, I think her art is on the battlefield.

Holliday = Walking along a sunny beach blasting bad guys with her boom stick of cause.

[Balsam Beige]

I think it this would be a good time to repost this:

So to all the haters out there just try and deny the word of the Ashley Williams Lore/Cannon writer. You will lose.

TeenZombie wrote...

I've been meaning to drop this quote off in this thread for a while, so here is a quote that (hopefully) will put the "Ashley hates aliens" myth to rest.  This is Chris L'Etoile, former Bioware writer, who wrote Ashley, and posts around the web as Stormwaltz, on the Penny Arcade forum Mass Effect thread:

I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.

In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor), and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.


2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.


3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

And it's hard to dispute this. At the least, you could say the krogan live by these rules. It's certainly a more suspicious and pessimistic point of view than most of us are comfortable with. But is it racism, or realism?

Anyway. I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense. Evidently, I did something very wrong here.

To answer a question from... I don't know, tens of pages ago, if you romance her and have persuade, you can convince her to be a bit less extreme in her opinions.

Link to post

And there you have the man who wrote the character, telling us what she meant by the bear and dog comment, and her view on aliens.  Realism, not racism.

So there!!!

Edit:   This was originally posted by Teen Zombie.

Modifié par Balsam Beige, 13 avril 2011 - 10:51 .

[Sinapus]

V-rex wrote...
*snip*Re: "Hillbilly" argument from an "enlightened" person*snip*
... sigh, I hate it when people give that argument.
Apart from that in and of itself it's a gross misinterpretation of the character and her views regarding aliens, even if it were true it wouldn't mean anything.
I really like Hannibal Lecter as a character, it doesn't mean that I eat people. Just because the character exchibits certain actions and behaviors does not mean that I condone, empathise with or find said character traits appealing. Yes I like Ashley but I also like Wrex, Garrus, Legion, Thane, Samara, Grunt and Mordin too. I love aliens, I'm an alien enthusiast.

Frankly I just hate it when I hear this argument. People tell me that obviously I must be right wing and must hate aliens in games and hence must hate other cultures in real life and be only comfortable with a 'pure' ethnic group. Hello people, I live in Perth City Western Australia.
In case you didn't know, Perth is the most ethnically diverse city in all of Australia. We get people from all over Europe, Asia, Africa and the united Kingdom and all points in between flocking over here. My two closest male friends are respectively from the Phillipines and Europe. I'm also friends with dozens of asian people and Indian people.
I love cultural diversity, if I only hung out with white people my social circle would be very limited.

Seriously, how can people make a harsh generalization about an entire fanbase (oh obviously they made a 'hillbilly' character so hence everyone who incidently likes said character MUST be hillbilies as well) and then talk about it like they've stated an absolute fact?
I mean on the base level if Ashley did exist to please the racists, why include the option to change her views?

It's more likely the person quoted is using his own prejudices without realizing it. Some people aren't as... enlightened as they presume they are.

("Hillbilly"? Yeah, that's a sign of enlightenment and open-mindedness.)

[Batlass8]

V-Rex, your Walls o'Text never disappoint.  They always say what I'm thinking far more thoroughly and eloquently than I could express myself.

As an Arab female of the decidedly liberal persuasion, I object to profiling/stereotyping.  Especially the stereotyping of Ash fans.

[grifter024]

yeah I've actually noticed that as well...most people that call "Ashley," Racist seem to have a thing for "Tali."
So ash will be smeared as a racist but you can actually TELL the Quarians to eradicate an entire civilization just to get back their home planet instead of looking for a new place and taking to time to teraform that new place?

Seems the quarians are kind of like ****'s.

Also I never knew that Ash shot Wrex in the back till my like 7th playthrough and every playthrough had her in my party and LI'd.

[Horsemanlawyer]

In an me1 convo, ashley says some negative stuff about aliens and then says "it's not racism, not really" but, to me, there's a lack of conviction in her voice, like she knows that she's being racist. Gotta say, I've heard similar things before, living where I do; it's what racists say when they want to express something racist but try to dodge the label. An absolute turn off, but the brilliance of ashley as a character is that her fear of aliens breaks down once she actually spends time with them, which is what invariably happens if a fearful, ignorant person opens up and actually interacts with someone who looks different. She grows ; that's sexy. Put that growth on top of a love for tennyson, smarts, quippiness, stone toughness and beauty, and i'm on board, totally. And "hillbilly", I've known some, she's nowhere near that. I resent the dismissal of a character based on a simple interpretation of her, when in fact there's much complexity and richness to her, which obviously the dude posting from hong kong didn't take the time to see.

[Batlass8]

Horsemanlawyer wrote...

In an me1 convo, ashley says some negative stuff about aliens and then says "it's not racism, not really" but, to me, there's a lack of conviction in her voice, like she knows that she's being racist.

Just to clarify:  What she's referring to as "not racism" is actually the Council's policy of using non-Council races to shield itself from galactic threats.  That's what her whole dog-bear-person analogy is about.  In the contemporaneous situation Shepard is faced with in ME1, humanity is the dog, Saren is the bear, and the Council is the guy leaving his dog behind as he runs for the hills.  

Edited because no one says "run for the heels."  (Unless they're shopping, but that's another matter).

Modifié par Batlass8, 13 avril 2011 - 04:46 .

[Lee337]

IRON MAIDEN: Run for the Heels. Sounds like an awesome paradoy.

The hong kong guy just sounds like another who misinterprated what was said and exploded into over emotional "la la la la, I'm not listening" mode.

[ADLegend21]

It's not racism, nothing Ashley says is racism. Anything Geth related out of Tali's mouth IS racist though. but as usual aliens can gt away with it cuz they're cool aliens.

[Lee337]

I don't think the tali/geth stuff is racist. Racism is discriminating against a race because they are different etc. Hate for a race because they have taken over your homeworld isn't racist. I wonder how many of the extremist anti racist people will hold that view if aliens invaded and enslaved us all.

[Raanz]

V-Rex Great post and always an interesting topic.

People who make these generalizations always make me laugh because despite their "enlightened" positions, they fail to see their own bigotry when it comes to individuals that do not agree with their point of view.

Ash fan: check
American: check
Conservative: (not so black and white. Fiscally conservative yes, morally conservative, not so much)
According to that poster, I am a hillbilly, racist. Sorry to break the news, far from it
Here's why:
I don't "hate" aliens, I love a good space opera and enjoy the diversity of the ME universe and setting. I happen to enjoy a character that is well written, strong in their convictions, and is not politically correct all of the time. That is real to me, that is what some humans would think and act and there is good reason behind those beliefs. Ashley is simply leery of aliens or non-humans. No trust has been built up yet. Wasn't her father in a major conflict with the first aliens humans encountered...ever? How is that any different then the Turian C-Sec officer who told Shepard when he first met him: "I don't trust humans, not yet."? How about a council of non-humans that blatantly used an entire race to wipe out another race, and then proceeded to try and curtail their breeding/reproduction because in their minds, they would become too dangerous with numbers.
Oh that's right, they get a pass because they are not humans. Hypocritical in my eyes.

Think about what Kelly's response was to whether she liked aliens in regards to Cerberus' pro-human stance. Believe it or not, people deal with this kind of mis-representation in our modern world.

[Horsemanlawyer]

I suppose I read the conversation more broadly than the analogy. Ashley starts by saying they shouldn't trust the sneaky aliens and shep asks why. She brings the analogy in to say, hey, they'd abandon us in a tough moment, so we have to have the same attitude; we're like dogs to them, let them be as dogs to us. In the string are ignorance, since aliens, she later learns but does not know then, stand by shepherd throughout and fear, I assume they'll act acertain way, so we should retreat among our own kind. That's the hallmark of racism, fear and assumptions about differences with no evidence or experience on which to bar either thing. But, with her own smarts and some guidance from shep, she pulls herself outta that trap and becomes fantastic.

[grifter024]

ADLegend21 wrote...

It's not racism, nothing Ashley says is racism. Anything Geth related out of Tali's mouth IS racist though. but as usual aliens can gt away with it cuz they're cool aliens.

Doesnt Tali go crazy when she first sees Legion saying that SHep should destroy him? Isnt that a little racist to another species? Not to mention the mass genocide that you can initiate for the Quarians.

[Horsemanlawyer]

Meant "base" not "bar".

[ADLegend21]

grifter024 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

It's not racism, nothing Ashley says is racism. Anything Geth related out of Tali's mouth IS racist though. but as usual aliens can gt away with it cuz they're cool aliens.

Doesnt Tali go crazy when she first sees Legion saying that SHep should destroy him? Isnt that a little racist to another species? Not to mention the mass genocide that you can initiate for the Quarians.

yes, if you bring Legion on her recruitment mission she shoots at him.

[ADLegend21]

Horsemanlawyer wrote...

I suppose I read the conversation more broadly than the analogy. Ashley starts by saying they shouldn't trust the sneaky aliens and shep asks why. She brings the analogy in to say, hey, they'd abandon us in a tough moment, so we have to have the same attitude; we're like dogs to them, let them be as dogs to us. In the string are ignorance, since aliens, she later learns but does not know then, stand by shepherd throughout and fear, I assume they'll act acertain way, so we should retreat among our own kind. That's the hallmark of racism, fear and assumptions about differences with no evidence or experience on which to bar either thing. But, with her own smarts and some guidance from shep, she pulls herself outta that trap and becomes fantastic.

WHOA. She doesn't say we should use the council as dogs. she NEVER insists we should use any aliens. I don't know what crap you've been watching or playing but she NEVER says  anything along the lines of "Let's use those damn aliens so we can survive". As a matter of fact when the terra firma party says what you're insinuating she calls them racists and expresses her displeasure with their message.

[jamesp81]

Phobius9 wrote...

I'm bored, so here's some questions for you all:

What do you think Ash's favourite colour is?

What do you think Ash's idea of a good night out is?

What kind of music do you think she likes?

What kind of books do you think she likes reading? (aside from poetry)

Do you think she has/has had a pet? If so, what kind?

What's her favourite food?

Do you think she has any artisitic merit? She likes poetry, but do you think she's any good at writing it? Painting perhapes?

What's Ash's idea of a great holiday?


No real reason behind asking these, just passing the time...

Color: Red.  Seems to fit her personality
Music: Dance music when out on the town, classic rock otherwise.
Books: She's more cultured than she looks.  I could see her appreciating something like Lord of the Rings.
Pet: She always struck me as a dog person.  She values loyalty, friendship, and devotion.
Food: The hotter the better.  Probably likes Cajun and Thai.
Artistry: I would not be surprised if she could write a bit of poetry.  It's not uncommon among soldiers, actually.

Modifié par jamesp81, 13 avril 2011 - 06:59 .

[jamesp81]

GodWood wrote...

I stumbled across a post in this thread and I must say it's definitely an ... odd interpretation of Ash and her 'target fans'

I've always had this theory that Ashley is the archetypical military/hillbilly babe, there to please the group of ethnocentric players who don't enjoy aliens (and other cultures in general). I don't have anything against conservatives (or Ashley for that matter), but it always struck me as odd how anybody can still like Ashley especially after that episode with Wrex. I mean, seriously, why would you wanna play a space opera RPG if you don't like aliens in the 1st place? Yet I understand Ashley has a substantial fanbase, and it'd be interesting for me to see where these ppl came from, I suspect she's more popular in America than anywhere else.

I'm purely saying this out of my cultural character - I live in Hong Kong, and our culture is fairly liberal/progressive for the most part. And my circle of RL friends who play ME all grew to dislike her because of that. It's difficult for us, having grown up dealing with Chinese/white/S Asians/SE Asians/Japanese ppl everyday, to comprehend outright racism (not that we're racist-free, but). And her character subsequently loses relevance to us.

Do I break this guy's worldview if I tell him I am well right of center but still like the aliens...and Ashley too?

[jamesp81]

Sinapus wrote...

V-rex wrote...
*snip*Re: "Hillbilly" argument from an "enlightened" person*snip*
... sigh, I hate it when people give that argument.
Apart from that in and of itself it's a gross misinterpretation of the character and her views regarding aliens, even if it were true it wouldn't mean anything.
I really like Hannibal Lecter as a character, it doesn't mean that I eat people. Just because the character exchibits certain actions and behaviors does not mean that I condone, empathise with or find said character traits appealing. Yes I like Ashley but I also like Wrex, Garrus, Legion, Thane, Samara, Grunt and Mordin too. I love aliens, I'm an alien enthusiast.

Frankly I just hate it when I hear this argument. People tell me that obviously I must be right wing and must hate aliens in games and hence must hate other cultures in real life and be only comfortable with a 'pure' ethnic group. Hello people, I live in Perth City Western Australia.
In case you didn't know, Perth is the most ethnically diverse city in all of Australia. We get people from all over Europe, Asia, Africa and the united Kingdom and all points in between flocking over here. My two closest male friends are respectively from the Phillipines and Europe. I'm also friends with dozens of asian people and Indian people.
I love cultural diversity, if I only hung out with white people my social circle would be very limited.

Seriously, how can people make a harsh generalization about an entire fanbase (oh obviously they made a 'hillbilly' character so hence everyone who incidently likes said character MUST be hillbilies as well) and then talk about it like they've stated an absolute fact?
I mean on the base level if Ashley did exist to please the racists, why include the option to change her views?

It's more likely the person quoted is using his own prejudices without realizing it. Some people aren't as... enlightened as they presume they are.

("Hillbilly"? Yeah, that's a sign of enlightenment and open-mindedness.)

And those of us who ARE from hillbilly land and are well right of center don't usually fit the stereotype's mold well either.  For example, I am always pinpointed a citizen of Hillbillystan the moment I start talking (heavy accent).  The stereotype says that I should be a racist jackwagon that tweaks meth, dips snuff, and likes guns.  The reality is that I have a four year college education, I write software for a living, scored very high in anything to do with writing, can speak a touch of Arabic, and have a blackbelt in karate.  Well, the stereotype is right on one thing: I do enjoy recreational shooting.

[grifter024]

jamesp81 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

I stumbled across a post in this thread and I must say it's definitely an ... odd interpretation of Ash and her 'target fans'

I've always had this theory that Ashley is the archetypical military/hillbilly babe, there to please the group of ethnocentric players who don't enjoy aliens (and other cultures in general). I don't have anything against conservatives (or Ashley for that matter), but it always struck me as odd how anybody can still like Ashley especially after that episode with Wrex. I mean, seriously, why would you wanna play a space opera RPG if you don't like aliens in the 1st place? Yet I understand Ashley has a substantial fanbase, and it'd be interesting for me to see where these ppl came from, I suspect she's more popular in America than anywhere else.

I'm purely saying this out of my cultural character - I live in Hong Kong, and our culture is fairly liberal/progressive for the most part. And my circle of RL friends who play ME all grew to dislike her because of that. It's difficult for us, having grown up dealing with Chinese/white/S Asians/SE Asians/Japanese ppl everyday, to comprehend outright racism (not that we're racist-free, but). And her character subsequently loses relevance to us.

Do I break this guy's worldview if I tell him I am well right of center but still like the aliens...and Ashley too?

Notice how he used lots of "My," "Our," "Us," to hide his own prejudice not to mention him saying that Ashley is probably more popular in "America." Which means what exactly?

it is always nice when people paint someone so fast without them getting to know the person beforehand. Then again it can go both ways.