14023 réponses à ce sujet

[Paragon Gabriel]

One thought just came in mind. I don't want any weddings in ME3, but I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea if you could get Ash in a high heels and skirt and take her out to dinner.

EDIT: Top of page (credits goes to to fatguy88)

Modifié par Gabriel the First, 29 avril 2011 - 06:36 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

Brownfinger wrote...

What context does "aliens = animals" belong, then?
Because it certainly seemed hateful to, oh, most people. Apart from those blindly loyal to her. =D

That said, I'm interested to see the direction they take her in Mass Effect 3, and hoping for it to be better and somewhat more enlightened. So, I'm letting her stick around in my Infiltrator playthrough. Doesn't hurt that they're making her easier on the eyes, and I like that whatever she devotes herself to, she does it with unflinching conviction.

This.

I like Ashley, but some of the defenses put forward for Ashley saying she can't tell the aliens from the animals, are a little weak.

There are some who defend that statement by claiming that Ashley literally couldn't tell who was a sapient being, because of her lack of experience with aliens. This is probably the weakest defense of that statement, as all the aliens except for the hanar wear clothing. How many animals wear clothing?

All the aliens are have their own languages, or with the case of the Hanar, are able to communicate with the other species with electronic aids. Also even though Ashley *may* not have seen a Hanar or an Elcor in person before, she would have known what they were, and would have seen them on TV, or in other media like books or newspapers. She wasn't living in isolation prior to travelling with Commander Shepard. She may even have encountered aliens in person before, as it is likely there would be some in all the major human trading hubs on Earth & in the colonies.

The statement Ashley makes about not being able to tell the aliens from the animals is not being taken out of context. It is exactly how it sounds: It is a racist statement.

That being said, I don't believe the character was intended to be a racist, and if Bioware could do it again, they probably wouldn't have Ashley make that remark. If Ashley truly were racist, she'd by sympathetic with Terra Firma and wouldn't condemn Saraceno and his ilk for being small-minded bigots.

The statement is justifiably criticized, though I don't believe putting your foot in your mouth on one occasion necessarily makes you a racist. She proves herself not to be a racist if you bring her along when Saraceno tries to solicit your support for Terra Firma.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 29 avril 2011 - 06:56 .

[Lord Zeuss]

I would say "I can't tell the aliens from the animals," in a similar situation if that was my honest reaction.

[grifter024]

Rdubs wrote...

Hey well after just being a parasite and sucking off the goodness of fanfic created by Badpie and Milla and others I'm thinking about trying to write something myself. Problem is, having trouble thinking up an interesting story arc. If you guys have any high-level ideas let me know. I'd want it to not ever conflict with anything Badpie has written as I consider those works to be my personal post-ME2 canon until ME3 comes out. It would include Shepard and Ash but they wouldn't be the main characters, that ground is too well covered, I'm thinking about trying to develop one of the lesser-known characters and send them on a mission to try to procure a small recon ship used for scouting and other missions where the Normandy can't be there.

Anyway anyone have ideas shoot 'em at me, please PM.

There was someone that had a bad guy and went to his point of view a few times....personally I loved the idea of a few bad guy pov's that involve ash/shep.

I'd love a fanfic if there was some badguy trying to steal away ash from shep to use against him but without shep knowing she is controlled. Then again whatever shep/ash fanfic comes out I'm a fan.

[ADLegend21]

hahaha I'm dancing with Kaidan on Flux and Femshep does Ashley's dance!!!! had to laugh!

[grifter024]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Brownfinger wrote...

What context does "aliens = animals" belong, then?
Because it certainly seemed hateful to, oh, most people. Apart from those blindly loyal to her. =D

That said, I'm interested to see the direction they take her in Mass Effect 3, and hoping for it to be better and somewhat more enlightened. So, I'm letting her stick around in my Infiltrator playthrough. Doesn't hurt that they're making her easier on the eyes, and I like that whatever she devotes herself to, she does it with unflinching conviction.

This.

I like Ashley, but some of the defenses put forward for Ashley saying she can't tell the aliens from the animals, are a little weak.

There are some who defend that statement by claiming that Ashley literally couldn't tell who was a sapient being, because of her lack of experience with aliens. This is probably the weakest defense of that statement, as all the aliens except for the hanar wear clothing. How many animals wear clothing?

All the aliens are have their own languages, or with the case of the Hanar, are able to communicate with the other species with electronic aids. Also even though Ashley *may* not have seen a Hanar or an Elcor in person before, she would have known what they were, and would have seen them on TV, or in other media like books or newspapers. She wasn't living in isolation prior to travelling with Commander Shepard. She may even have encountered aliens in person before, as it is likely there would be some in all the major human trading hubs on Earth & in the colonies.

The statement Ashley makes about not being able to tell the aliens from the animals is not being taken out of context. It is exactly how it sounds: It is a racist statement.

That being said, I don't believe the character was intended to be a racist, and if Bioware could do it again, they probably wouldn't have Ashley make that remark. If Ashley truly were racist, she'd by sympathetic with Terra Firma and wouldn't condemn Saraceno and his ilk for being small-minded bigots.

The statement is justifiably criticized, though I don't believe putting your foot in your mouth on one occasion necessarily makes you a racist. She proves herself not to be a racist if you bring her along when Saraceno tries to solicit your support for Terra Firma.

1. The comment wasnt racist due to again her severe lack of social interactions of alien species.
"How many animals wear clothing?" Really thats what your going with?
Ok Mass Effect is so far in  the future its funny and animals STILL DONT HAVE CLOTHING! Dude we ALREADY HAVE clothing for animals! I take it you dont watch the news where they show off animals in little sweaters and cats in turtlenecks.

The basis of your argument where animals dont wear clothing is very weak and should not be considered a valid argument of being racist.

Then your second argument is pretty flawed as well.

So your saying that if you see 1 hanar/elcor on tv that means you KNOW for a fact that they are a civilized species
without even actually meeting one in person?

Sorry but the first reaction of a person never having a real physical contact with an alien species IS going to be labeling them animal....its our programming, because no matter how hard you try to justify that your "Different," Your not when you see an elcor/hanar/volus you ARE going to think their animals due to them not having the human physiology.

Then again I dont see your bleeding heart for the Geth...they are sentient but we cut a swath straight through their ranks like nothing and didnt think anything about it, or say the Collectors they are the same deal but oh no its not racist to kill those PEOPLE or are they the ones considered animals?
Then there is Thane killing humans and he isnt labeled racist....last I checked the reason ashley is considered racist is because she killed wrex an "Alien." Why does Thane get a pass?

The foundation of all ashley hate is nothing more then ignorance....its pretty pathetic to read to be honest.

[Aedan_Cousland]

1. The comment wasnt racist due to again her severe lack of social interactions of alien species.
"How many animals wear clothing?" Really thats what your going with?
Ok Mass Effect is so far in  the future its funny and animals STILL DONT HAVE CLOTHING! Dude we ALREADY HAVE clothing for animals! I take it you dont watch the news where they show off animals in little sweaters and cats in turtlenecks.

The basis of your argument where animals dont wear clothing is very weak and should not be considered a valid argument of being racist.

And those animals have been quite obviously dressed by the owners and are being led around on leashes, not walking around on their own, holding conversations, using computers, policing the Citadel, or buying/selling in the markets. Do you seriously believe that Ashley wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Turian or a Salarian, and someone's pet?

Then your second argument is pretty flawed as well.

So your saying that if you see 1 hanar/elcor on tv that means you KNOW for a fact that they are a civilized species
without even actually meeting one in person?

Yes.

Humans did not just make First Contact. First Contact occurs about 26 years before the events of Mass Effect 1, and Ashley Williams is born after First Contact. She would have been well aware of the civilized species in the galaxy.

Sorry but the first reaction of a person never having a real physical contact with an alien species IS going to be labeling them animal....its our programming, because no matter how hard you try to justify that your "Different," Your not when you see an elcor/hanar/volus you ARE going to think their animals due to them not having the human physiology.

I'm sure many people would have the same reaction, and would utter similarily offensive comments. That doesn't make it right.

Then again I dont see your bleeding heart for the Geth...they are sentient but we cut a swath straight through their ranks like nothing and didnt think anything about it, or say the Collectors they are the same deal but oh no its not racist to kill those PEOPLE or are they the ones considered animals?

What do the Geth or the Collectors have to do with Ashley Williams?

You are going into left field. It wouldn't be 'racist' to kill Geth or Collectors because they were allies of the Reapers, and as such, are your enemies. You weren't killing them just because they looked different than you.

Then there is Thane killing humans and he isnt labeled racist....last I checked the reason ashley is considered racist is because she killed wrex an "Alien." Why does Thane get a pass?

Thane never killed a human because he was human. As far as we know there has never been any racial motivations for Thane killing members of other species, therefore he isn't racist.

I never said anything about Wrex in my post, so I'm not sure why you are going off on that tangent.

The foundation of all ashley hate is nothing more then ignorance....its pretty pathetic to read to be honest.

Your reading skills are pretty pathetic. I prefaced by post by stating that I liked Ashley. I just have little tolerance for fanboyism that prevents a person from recognizing a character's flaws or missteps. You'd be at home amongst the Talimancers.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 29 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[Recon Member]

Gabriel the First wrote...

One thought just came in mind. I don't want any weddings in ME3, but I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea if you could get Ash in a high heels and skirt and take her out to dinner.

Sure, why not.

[Alamar2078]

grifter024 wrote...
1. The comment wasnt racist due to again her severe lack of social interactions of alien species.

So Ash is either stupid / ignorant on a galactic scale or racist???   I'm not sure that you're helping build a positive image of her.

grifter024 wrote...
Sorry but the first reaction of a person never having a real physical contact with an alien species IS going to be labeling them animal....its our programming, because no matter how hard you try to justify that your "Different," Your not when you see an elcor/hanar/volus you ARE going to think their animals due to them not having the human physiology.

Actually I think most people would label something like Elcor/Hanar/Volus as "creatures".  I don't think "animal" would come to any native-english-speaker's mind.


Personally I chalk the line up to a comment that while not necessarily "racist" may be indicative of some bias / prejudice / bigotry / some other potentially negative reaction .....   Also it's perhaps an "opps how did we let that slip through"?

[grifter024]

I was going to reply to both but decided not too.

Its one thing to defend someones actions and then its another to get into a witch hunt and this is being the latter.

You guys want to call someone a racist/xeno because of 1 little comment be my guest, because it just goes to show how shallow the person calling her that really is.

I was actually laughing at the lack of concrete data for the argument though so thanks for that.

[Lord Zeuss]

[Aedan_Cousland]

grifter024 wrote...

I was going to reply to both but decided not too.

Its one thing to defend someones actions and then its another to get into a witch hunt and this is being the latter.

You guys want to call someone a racist/xeno because of 1 little comment be my guest, because it just goes to show how shallow the person calling her that really is.

I was actually laughing at the lack of concrete data for the argument though so thanks for that.

I didn't call Ashley a racist. In fact I made it clear that I didn't think she was a racist, because she's confrontational with Saraceno when he tries to solicit Shepard's support for Terra Firma. If she truly hated aliens, she'd be more sympathetic to their racist political platform.

I also made it clear that I like the character.

I just think that the comment about not being able to tell the difference between aliens & animals is indefensible. When people criticize that comment they aren't taking it out of context. It was a racist comment. That being said, I also don't think you can judge the character based on one example of her putting her foot in her mouth. You have to judge her based on her actions and dialogue throughout the entire game, and taken as a whole, Ashley isn't really a racist.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 29 avril 2011 - 11:43 .

[Brownfinger]

haynoats wrote...

Ok. How about take a human who has seldom been exposed to aliens. Now take them to other worlds where you literally have hundreds of different aliens running around. Could you tell the aliens from the alien animals?

Could you? When you first got the Citadel, could you make the distinction that they were intelligent beings? It certainly wasn't difficult for me. And, the first time I saw a Varren, I was immediately aware that is was a semi domesticated animal.
It's a weak argument, really.
I'd also restrain myself from being verbally hostile towards them, which is more than can be said for Ashley.

I don't have a problem with her flaws, I think they're what make her an interesting character. But I acknowledge the flaws and what they are. For the stubborn die-hard fanboys to bury their heads in the sand and ignore the evidence... well, it's kinda silly.

Modifié par Brownfinger, 29 avril 2011 - 11:50 .

[Lord Zeuss]

Alamar2078 wrote...

Personally I chalk the line up to a comment that while not necessarily "racist" may be indicative of some bias / prejudice / bigotry / some other potentially negative reaction .....   Also it's perhaps an "opps how did we let that slip through"?

Or how about "expressing wonder at the new sights and sounds in way that may not be entirely 100% politically correct"?

"Gosh, there are a lot of strange animals and just as strange aliens here that I've never or rarely seen in-person before. It's hard to differentiate the two!" Is there really racist intent in this line of thinking? Because this is what I got from her comment "I can't tell the aliens from the animals".

As an aside: Are the Keepers aliens or animals? I honestly don't know. Am I racist for asking?

[Cossack72]

Lord Zeuss wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Personally I chalk the line up to a comment that while not necessarily "racist" may be indicative of some bias / prejudice / bigotry / some other potentially negative reaction .....   Also it's perhaps an "opps how did we let that slip through"?

Or how about "expressing wonder at the new sights and sounds in way that may not be entirely 100% politically correct"?

"Gosh, there are a lot of strange animals and just as strange aliens here that I've never or rarely seen in-person before. It's hard to differentiate the two!" Is there really racist intent in this line of thinking? Because this is what I got from her comment "I can't tell the aliens from the animals".

As an aside: Are the Keepers aliens or animals? I honestly don't know. Am I racist for asking?

I think they used to be aliens, but they've since turned into animals because of the high probability the Reapers enslaved, indoctrinated, and genetically modified them.

Modifié par Cossack72, 30 avril 2011 - 01:28 .

[PMC65]

I think Ash does better on the Citadel than I would have. Let's be honest, if you had never really seen these aliens, how "safe" would you feel? I grew up on alien movies ("Aliens", "Independence Day") so I would be a little WTF? Her grandfather was in the war with the Turians (Independence Day) so she has even more reason to not be trusting.

I would be walking behind Shepard the whole time on the Citadel, once he and Kaiden pried my hands from the Normandy. On the Normandy, I would sleep with one eye open. After seeing Liara with the black eyes thingy and hearing "meld" .... No sleep for me! So I cut her some slack.

[V-rex]

Oh god damn Christ.
Here I was honestly thinking this whole 'IS ASHELY RASESIST!' bullsh*t had finally slipped the net and we could finally just relax, guess not. How hopelessly naive of me.

When I first saw the Hanar I thought it was a balloon, and when I saw the Keepers I assumed I would be able to talk to them. After about a good solid forty minutes wandering around the citadel wondering why I couldn't talk to the Keepers I suddenly had it revealed to me that while the little insect creatures with backbacks that were operating control pannels were essentially animals... the big floating jellyfish with no clothes or face of any description was a sentient race capable of space travel.
You know what? I had a similar mindset of Ashley in that respect, because I'd just been mistaking animals for aliens and an alien race for some kind of decoration. It's not unreasonable for someone who has plain never seen any alien races up close before to make that connection.

To this day talking to Hanar makes me uncomfortable, because it doesn't have any kind of discernable face and so doesn't feel 'alive' to me. There's just a floating mass that produces a voice from the ether and I have a hard time associating that, in my mind, as being alive.

Ashley has never worked with aliens before, hell she's barely even had contact with them before. In fact I think when she sees the body of Nihlus her shocked reaction might imply that she's never seen a Turian before. Given her history of groundside assignments, it is doubtful that she's ever made contact or witnessed many aliens in her time.
Hence, when she's walking around and seeing giant Elcor that look like hippo/gorilla creatures or floating Hanar that just look like bright pink floating pot plants and the Keepers which, out of all of them are the ones considered 'animals'. It's a strange new world for her, and it's not surprising that she would respond like that.
Besides, I never got the impression of hatred or condescesion in her voice when she said it. She didn't say it an a contemptuous way as though she was disgusted by them nor did she say it in a mocking tone as though she was gleefully ridiculing them. She just sounded like she was being honest and frank about it.
Anyway given that she says and does a plethora of things that contradict the notion that she's racist over the course of the story... I was prepared to let that one slip.

Also as two final side notes:
Apparently the line is glitched and Ashley was only ever meant to say it exclusively alongside the Keepers. Take from that was you will.

The other side note is that I actually do agree that it's a mistake to have her say that line, as does her writer Chris L'iotile, because given that she was already characterized with a distrust of alien cultures and that it was too easy to interpret that line as an insult towards aliens. And yes in general I think it was a dumb thing for her to say and I think it's a great case of sticking ones foot in ones mouth.

However, I like Ashley for her good traits and love her for her flaws. In a gaming world where every female character is either a sexual fantasy or an idealized nerd girlfriend, Ashley was a daring representation of a character who wasn't totally agreeable, but also not totally hateful either. She's very bold, brave and beautiful and has a noteworthy degree of compassion within all that. But she's also quick to anger, has a capacity to say the wrong thing and can often be quite stubborn.

Ashley was a case of a person actually feeling like a person. Having to come to terms with both the positive qualities and the negative qualities as well. Honestly I'd rather have that then another giggly bubbly exciteable geek girlfriend who is less a character and more a legitimized wishlist of all the qualities nerds want in a girlfriend but without any negativity and of whom's unquestioning adoration of you comes across as more annoying than cute.

[Antivenger]

Just checked out the "Why I think People Hate Ashley Williams" thread. To tell you the truth, termokanden makes a valid argument. He was actually making sense in his reasons for not liking her. Then three posters came along and blew it all away with the usual brand of "I'm a naive douche and I hate Ashley". Just my opinion though.

[V-rex]

Antivenger wrote...

Just checked out the "Why I think People Hate Ashley Williams" thread. To tell you the truth, termokanden makes a valid argument. He was actually making sense in his reasons for not liking her. Then three posters came along and blew it all away with the usual brand of "I'm a naive douche and I hate Ashley". Just my opinion though.

Every now and then someone will come up and say something honest, well thought out and understandable as to why they personally dislike Ashley Williams. These occurances are rare but they do happen and when they do I let them slip by.
But of course that isn't usually the case. More often it's a case of people playing the'Ron the Death Eater' card with angry overstatements, projection and blatant misinterpretations. These ones, I'm less forgiving towards.

[jamesp81]

Lord Zeuss wrote...

I would say "I can't tell the aliens from the animals," in a similar situation if that was my honest reaction.

I might even say it as a sarcastic, if not entirely accurate, remark to illustrate how unfamiliar the place is.  JMO.

[jamesp81]

V-rex wrote...

Oh god damn Christ.
Here I was honestly thinking this whole 'IS ASHELY RASESIST!' bullsh*t had finally slipped the net and we could finally just relax, guess not. How hopelessly naive of me.

When I first saw the Hanar I thought it was a balloon, and when I saw the Keepers I assumed I would be able to talk to them. After about a good solid forty minutes wandering around the citadel wondering why I couldn't talk to the Keepers I suddenly had it revealed to me that while the little insect creatures with backbacks that were operating control pannels were essentially animals... the big floating jellyfish with no clothes or face of any description was a sentient race capable of space travel.
You know what? I had a similar mindset of Ashley in that respect, because I'd just been mistaking animals for aliens and an alien race for some kind of decoration. It's not unreasonable for someone who has plain never seen any alien races up close before to make that connection.

To this day talking to Hanar makes me uncomfortable, because it doesn't have any kind of discernable face and so doesn't feel 'alive' to me. There's just a floating mass that produces a voice from the ether and I have a hard time associating that, in my mind, as being alive.

Ashley has never worked with aliens before, hell she's barely even had contact with them before. In fact I think when she sees the body of Nihlus her shocked reaction might imply that she's never seen a Turian before. Given her history of groundside assignments, it is doubtful that she's ever made contact or witnessed many aliens in her time.
Hence, when she's walking around and seeing giant Elcor that look like hippo/gorilla creatures or floating Hanar that just look like bright pink floating pot plants and the Keepers which, out of all of them are the ones considered 'animals'. It's a strange new world for her, and it's not surprising that she would respond like that.
Besides, I never got the impression of hatred or condescesion in her voice when she said it. She didn't say it an a contemptuous way as though she was disgusted by them nor did she say it in a mocking tone as though she was gleefully ridiculing them. She just sounded like she was being honest and frank about it.
Anyway given that she says and does a plethora of things that contradict the notion that she's racist over the course of the story... I was prepared to let that one slip.

Also as two final side notes:
Apparently the line is glitched and Ashley was only ever meant to say it exclusively alongside the Keepers. Take from that was you will.

The other side note is that I actually do agree that it's a mistake to have her say that line, as does her writer Chris L'iotile, because given that she was already characterized with a distrust of alien cultures and that it was too easy to interpret that line as an insult towards aliens. And yes in general I think it was a dumb thing for her to say and I think it's a great case of sticking ones foot in ones mouth.

However, I like Ashley for her good traits and love her for her flaws. In a gaming world where every female character is either a sexual fantasy or an idealized nerd girlfriend, Ashley was a daring representation of a character who wasn't totally agreeable, but also not totally hateful either. She's very bold, brave and beautiful and has a noteworthy degree of compassion within all that. But she's also quick to anger, has a capacity to say the wrong thing and can often be quite stubborn.

Ashley was a case of a person actually feeling like a person. Having to come to terms with both the positive qualities and the negative qualities as well. Honestly I'd rather have that then another giggly bubbly exciteable geek girlfriend who is less a character and more a legitimized wishlist of all the qualities nerds want in a girlfriend but without any negativity and of whom's unquestioning adoration of you comes across as more annoying than cute.

I agree with this whole post and I also hereby decree that you win +3 internets.

[PMC65]

V-rex wrote...

Oh god damn Christ.
Here I was honestly thinking this whole 'IS ASHELY RASESIST!' bullsh*t had finally slipped the net and we could finally just relax, guess not. How hopelessly naive of me.

When I first saw the Hanar I thought it was a balloon, and when I saw the Keepers I assumed I would be able to talk to them. After about a good solid forty minutes wandering around the citadel wondering why I couldn't talk to the Keepers I suddenly had it revealed to me that while the little insect creatures with backbacks that were operating control pannels were essentially animals... the big floating jellyfish with no clothes or face of any description was a sentient race capable of space travel.
You know what? I had a similar mindset of Ashley in that respect, because I'd just been mistaking animals for aliens and an alien race for some kind of decoration. It's not unreasonable for someone who has plain never seen any alien races up close before to make that connection.

To this day talking to Hanar makes me uncomfortable, because it doesn't have any kind of discernable face and so doesn't feel 'alive' to me. There's just a floating mass that produces a voice from the ether and I have a hard time associating that, in my mind, as being alive.

That was you that I saw talking to them damn backpack ****es? God! Because of you I kept asking the keeper for directions until Ash said "You know they don't talk, right?" And I also avoid those jelly fish. They just seem unnatural.... and squishy!

[Antivenger]

jamesp81 wrote...

Lord Zeuss wrote...

I would say "I can't tell the aliens from the animals," in a similar situation if that was my honest reaction.

I might even say it as a sarcastic, if not entirely accurate, remark to illustrate how unfamiliar the place is.  JMO.

It's not. I thought so too yesterday, even altered her inflections in my memory to convince myself. But after restarting my Fem!Shep, it sounds more like she blurts it out in awe.

On another note, my Shep won't be taking her back in ME3. He didn't move on, the Reaper invasion just comes first on his list of priorities. Not to mention the heavy risk of dying, not gonna put her through that again. (Yes, role-playing here.) Thoughts?

[Northern Sun]

browse.deviantart.com/

Ash fanart.