14023 réponses à ce sujet

[skcih-deraj]

No need to get ornry at peoples, lets keep it friendly and the personal jabs at a min.

[Balsam Beige]

Ok, Sorry, I apologize.

[trobbins777]

by drat-nine on deviantart 

Now if you'll excuse me i need to find a new computer, and some more coffee.

Modifié par trobbins777, 07 mai 2011 - 03:36 .

[Rdubs]

1Minsc1 wrote...

Shep was a marine, because:
"N7 is a vocational code in the Systems Alliance military. The "N" designates special forces and the "7" refers to the highest level of proficiency. It applies to marines who have graduated from an elite training program."

At start of ME1, Shep seems to be the "leader of ground forces ("marines")" onboard the Normandy. But then he became "captian by position", not by rank. So onboard he acts as naval officer ("captain"), during missions he act's as marine.

Shepard had to be a Marine because he led the 3-person ground team?   Seriously?  In that case the Navy SEALs who took out bin Laden must have been Marines because they operated on the ground.  I think it's safe to say that Navy SpecOps personnel know how to operate on the ground.  Also, and this is a general rule, be careful about relying on what someone wrote in a Wiki as the official word / canon as Wiki's by definition are updated by users and users can be wrong, as in this case.  Reading it I can tell you the author isn't too familiar with the military, because it states "It applies to marines who have graduated...".  Anyone familiar with the military knows instinctively to capitalize the word Marine when referring to either the branch or personnel within the branch, not only is it correct English since it is a "specific proper noun" but it is also a matter of great pride within the Corps.  The wiki states about N7: "It applies to marines who have graduated..."  Assuming the Alliance would not have a separate designation for the Marine SpecOps branch (which BTW in the U.S. is called Force Recon), then the entry would be correct if it read "It applies to ALLIANCE PERSONNEL who have graduated" (without the caps). 

Your comment about Shepard being a "Captain by position" is a non sequitur, as the question is about his rank not position, and as previously discussed he can "act" with knowledge of ground tactics without needing to be a Marine.

All of the above is peanuts though compared to the most common-sense reason why Shepard is Navy not a Marine - as previously discussed, Navy personnel are trained in operating ships whereas Marines are not, which is a prerequisite for command.  And as far as acting in another role's capacity, Navy personnel can have SpecOps training to make them proficient ground combat experts but Marines do not have a training program where they teach you to be a ship line officer.

[nickkcin11]

-Tali is confirmed squadmate
"Garrus, Liara, Kaidan, Ashley and (newly confirmed) Tali are all full
time members of your team if they survived the previous games."

Hallelujah!

[lolwut666]

Seems like all of the old crew is back, except for Wrex.

Thing is, I couldn't care less about the others as long as I had Wrex on my team.

Not to say this is bad news, but I would trade any of my favorite characters (Garrus, Ashley, Thane, Jack...) for my *number one* favorite character, Urdnot Wrex.

Oh, well...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

lolwut666 wrote...

Seems like all of the old crew is back, except for Wrex.

Thing is, I couldn't care less about the others as long as I had Wrex on my team.

Not to say this is bad news, but I would trade any of my favorite characters (Garrus, Ashley, Thane, Jack...) for my *number one* favorite character, Urdnot Wrex.

Oh, well...

Well at least he gets to do badass Wrex things while Shep and Co are killing husks in the face......
Besides he'll probably be one of those "Temp squaddies for one mission".... I miss that big lug!!!

[Darius Vir]

^ Wrex not being a perma-squaddie doesn't bother me all that much. I love Wrex and kind of do wish he was on the team, but it probably makes more sense for his character and what he's doing that he's not able to be with your team permanently.

Honestly, even in the first game, of all the squaddies he seemed the most to be Shepard's equal and there on more "associate/ally" terms rather than following Shepard.

Just excited that the original squad will by and large be back in action. I love ME2 and liked just about every character, but the only new squaddie that I thought super highly of on an "ME1 level" was Mordin.

Modifié par Darius Vir, 07 mai 2011 - 06:58 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Darius Vir wrote...

^ Wrex not being a perma-squaddie doesn't bother me all that much. I love Wrex and kind of do wish he was on the team, but it probably makes more sense for his character and what he's doing that he's not able to be with your team permanently.

Honestly, even in the first game, of all the squaddies he seemed the most to be Shepard's equal and there on more "associate/ally" terms rather than following Shepard.

Just excited that the original squad will by and large be back in action. I love ME2 and liked just about every character, but the only new squaddie that I thought super highly of on an "ME1 level" was Mordin.

Well he is the very model of a scientist Salarian.

[nickkcin11]

Wrex seems like a temporary guy. He comes to trust you in ME1 but I really didn't expect him to abandon his people for me. Hell, he will try to kill you if you don't diffuse the situation on Virmire over the same thing.

[Shadow_82]

lolwut666 wrote...

Seems like all of the old crew is back, except for Wrex.

Thing is, I couldn't care less about the others as long as I had Wrex on my team.

Not to say this is bad news, but I would trade any of my favorite characters (Garrus, Ashley, Thane, Jack...) for my *number one* favorite character, Urdnot Wrex.

Oh, well...

You'd trade Ash for Wrex?:crying:

[xelander]

I don't know about you guys, but even my most Paragon Shepards get very primal on Tuchanka, it must be something in the air. I always punch the pyjack, let Urz ravage the pits, headbutt Uvenk, often go very melee-ish in Mordins LM....

The thought of Shep, Wrex and Grunt together for a mission.... goosebumps! The universe might just overdose on badassery.

I agree that he should stay as the krogan leader though, it fits him well, and I like very much the direction of his character (and the krogan culture) development in ME1 and 2..

[Aedan_Cousland]

Rdubs wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Shepard is Navy and N7 is sort of like the SEALS.  Ashley is a Marine which is like, well, the Marines.

Like Ashley, Shepard is a Marine also.

Assuming the Alliance military is structured similar to current ones (at least the U.S.), then with respect, no.

1) Commander is a rank below Captain in the Navy.  The equivalent rank in the Marines is Lieutenant Colonel.  For Lieutenant Commander, the Marine equivalent rank is Major.  Assuming Captain Anderson was a Captain by rank as well as position, then this makes sense that Shepard, as his XO, would be the next lower rank.
2) Navy officers command ships, Marines do not.  Marines command platoons, companies, battalions, brigades, regiments, etc.
3) Admirals give orders to other Navy personnel.  Marine generals give orders to Marine unit commanders.  It was Admiral Hackett and such talking to Shepard, not a General.  Remember General Williams was a Marine, but Shepard is on the Admiral path.
4) The skill sets between Navy officers and Marine officers are very different, and a Marine officer could not serve in a "line" position on a ship.  Navy officers must be familiar with navigation, propulsion, engineering, communications, weapons and fleet operations.  Marine officers need to be familiar with ground unit tactics, logistics, things like that...missing are the skills anyone assigned to operate a ship / starship would need to know.  All Marines can do is ride around on ships...which is the genesis of the joke that Marine stands for "My @ss Rides In Navy Equipment".

Etc.  Again this assumes the Alliance is set up along the lines of how current militaries are structured.  I'm surprised Bioware didn't opt to mimic the Canadian military where all they have is the "Canadian Defense Force."

I'm a former Marine, so I'm familiar with the rank structure of the US military.

But you can't really apply that to Mass Effect, since the Alliance isn't the US military, and is organized differently. Even though Shepard has a Naval rank and commands a ship, he is a Marine.  You are told that in the first game, so Shep being a Marine is canon.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 07 mai 2011 - 09:33 .

[PrinceLionheart]

xelander wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but even my most Paragon Shepards get very primal on Tuchanka, it must be something in the air. I always punch the pyjack, let Urz ravage the pits, headbutt Uvenk, often go very melee-ish in Mordins LM....

The thought of Shep, Wrex and Grunt together for a mission.... goosebumps! The universe might just overdose on badassery.

I agree that he should stay as the krogan leader though, it fits him well, and I like very much the direction of his character (and the krogan culture) development in ME1 and 2..

Yeah, the Tuchanka segments were the most interesting part of ME2 IMO. Wrex always came across as a visonary in the first game, at least when it comes to his people, and I think it's cool how the Korgan develop a political system under his rule.

But yeah, Wrex, Garrus, and Ashley were my 3 favorites in ME1. The more I think about it, the more I find it more fitting that Ashley and Kaidan do end up becoming Spectres. Wrex is ruiling his people, Liara becomes the Shadow Broker, Tali is given more important jobs by the Admiralty Board, and Garrus becomes a Vigilante on Omega. It would be lacking if Kaidan and Ash just popped up again with no new role whatsoever.

[Aedan_Cousland]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

xelander wrote...

I don't know about you guys, but even my most Paragon Shepards get very primal on Tuchanka, it must be something in the air. I always punch the pyjack, let Urz ravage the pits, headbutt Uvenk, often go very melee-ish in Mordins LM....

The thought of Shep, Wrex and Grunt together for a mission.... goosebumps! The universe might just overdose on badassery.

I agree that he should stay as the krogan leader though, it fits him well, and I like very much the direction of his character (and the krogan culture) development in ME1 and 2..

Yeah, the Tuchanka segments were the most interesting part of ME2 IMO. Wrex always came across as a visonary in the first game, at least when it comes to his people, and I think it's cool how the Korgan develop a political system under his rule.

But yeah, Wrex, Garrus, and Ashley were my 3 favorites in ME1. The more I think about it, the more I find it more fitting that Ashley and Kaidan do end up becoming Spectres. Wrex is ruiling his people, Liara becomes the Shadow Broker, Tali is given more important jobs by the Admiralty Board, and Garrus becomes a Vigilante on Omega. It would be lacking if Kaidan and Ash just popped up again with no new role whatsoever.

I'd rather Garrus became a Spectre and Ash/Kaidan became an N7 Marine.

If only because you had the option in ME1 of steering Garrus toward either reapplying for the Spectres, or returning to C-Sec. Sadly, ME2 ignored that conversation and made your choices irrelevant. I was hoping ME3 would rectify that.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 07 mai 2011 - 10:28 .

[1Minsc1]

@ Rdubs

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

...

I'm a former Marine, so I'm familiar with the rank structure of the US military.

But you can't really apply that to Mass Effect, since the Alliance isn't the US military, and is organized differently. Even though Shepard has a Naval rank and commands a ship, he is a Marine.  You are told that in the first game, so Shep being a Marine is canon.

Now, that was what i'm trying so say.
You will also find in game codex: "Fifty marines died on Akuze..." and speaking with Chakwas/Jenkins Shep says "Marines are for fighting, you will fix us..."
To me it seems you were offended by my post, please notice i was only speaking about fictional military.

[lolwut666]

@Shadow_82

Yes.

With a heavy heart, but yes nonetheless.

[DWH1982]

On the whole "marine" vs. "navy" thing for Shepard... Go to the Mass Wiki, and check the codex from the game.

This is under Systems Alliance, Military Ranks:

http://masseffect.wi...ystems_Alliance

The divide between naval personnel and ground forces ("marines") is small. Ground units are a specialized branch of the fleet, just as fighter squadrons are. This unity of command is imposed by the futility of fighting without control of orbit; without the navy, any army is pointless. The marines, as a matter of pride, maintain some of their traditional rank titles; for example, marines have Privates and Corporals instead of Servicemen.

Although it doesn't expressly state it, the way this is phrased would seem to imply that ground forces are marines, and ship based forces are navy. Also, any comparisons to "real world" militaries are moot, because it has been thoroughly established that the Systems Alliance has its own special military structure and rank system. In short: The Systems Alliance military is NOT the U.S. military. Just because something is the case in the U.S. military does NOT mean it's the case with the alliance military.

if you still think I'm wrong, despite the codex entry, I encourage you to go the EA store and look at their own description for Mass Effect 3:

http://eastore.ea.co...uctID=222885600

 As Commander Shepard, an Alliance Marine, your only hope for saving mankind is to rally the civilizations of the galaxy and launch one final mission to take back the Earth.

Thus, EA would seem to confirm that Shepard is a marine. He is put in charge of his own ship only because he's a Spectre, making it unusual circumstances.

However, because the marines are basically just a special branch of the navy, it's easy for individuals to change between being a marine or being navy. That's why Anderson ended up a Captain - he was once a marine, but transferred into being navy. I suspect that, as a specialized branch of the navy, all marines have to undergo training in ship operations.

Given that marines and navy in ME share even most of the same rank structure, changing between the two doesn't seem like it would be very hard.

Modifié par DWH1982, 08 mai 2011 - 12:15 .

[V-rex]

Well in any case it looks like it's going to be a regular family reuinion on the Normandy with Ashley, Garrus, Tali and Liara joining. I would hope Wrex be among them as well, all things considered. Get the whole team back together, have a party. Drink wine and have a Blasto marathon.
But anyway it's good to see so many people back.

I know that I'm totally bringing Ashley and Garrus for the final battle. Can't wait.

[DWH1982]

I'd be totally fine with just having the original crew (at least the ones that survived) in ME3.

I'm "meh" on most of the ME3 crew. Miranda was okay, I guess. But I wouldn't even mind too much if she weren't a squad member.

[jamesp81]

Rdubs wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Shepard is Navy and N7 is sort of like the SEALS.  Ashley is a Marine which is like, well, the Marines.

Like Ashley, Shepard is a Marine also.

Assuming the Alliance military is structured similar to current ones (at least the U.S.), then with respect, no.

1) Commander is a rank below Captain in the Navy.  The equivalent rank in the Marines is Lieutenant Colonel.  For Lieutenant Commander, the Marine equivalent rank is Major.  Assuming Captain Anderson was a Captain by rank as well as position, then this makes sense that Shepard, as his XO, would be the next lower rank.
2) Navy officers command ships, Marines do not.  Marines command platoons, companies, battalions, brigades, regiments, etc.
3) Admirals give orders to other Navy personnel.  Marine generals give orders to Marine unit commanders.  It was Admiral Hackett and such talking to Shepard, not a General.  Remember General Williams was a Marine, but Shepard is on the Admiral path.
4) The skill sets between Navy officers and Marine officers are very different, and a Marine officer could not serve in a "line" position on a ship.  Navy officers must be familiar with navigation, propulsion, engineering, communications, weapons and fleet operations.  Marine officers need to be familiar with ground unit tactics, logistics, things like that...missing are the skills anyone assigned to operate a ship / starship would need to know.  All Marines can do is ride around on ships...which is the genesis of the joke that Marine stands for "My @ss Rides In Navy Equipment".

Etc.  Again this assumes the Alliance is set up along the lines of how current militaries are structured.  I'm surprised Bioware didn't opt to mimic the Canadian military where all they have is the "Canadian Defense Force."

Also, at several points in ME1, Shepard can introduce himself as being in the Alliance Navy.  Ashley also states, directly, that she's a Marine.

Shepard is Navy (specifically, Navy Special Ops), Ashley is Marine Corps.

[DWH1982]

The Marines in ME1 are a division of the Navy.

EDIT: At least that's what the codex entry seems to imply to me.

EDIT2: This also doesn't address why EA itself calls Shepard an "Alliance marine."

Modifié par DWH1982, 08 mai 2011 - 03:13 .

[jamesp81]

1Minsc1 wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Shepard is Navy and N7 is sort of like the SEALS.  Ashley is a Marine which is like, well, the Marines.

Like Ashley, Shepard is a Marine also.

Assuming the Alliance military is structured similar to current ones (at least the U.S.), then with respect, no.
1) Commander is a rank below Captain in the Navy.  The equivalent rank in the Marines is Lieutenant Colonel.  For Lieutenant Commander, the Marine equivalent rank is Major.  Assuming Captain Anderson was a Captain by rank as well as position, then this makes sense that Shepard, as his XO, would be the next lower rank.
2) Navy officers command ships, Marines do not.  Marines command platoons, companies, battalions, brigades, regiments, etc.
3) Admirals give orders to other Navy personnel.  Marine generals give orders to Marine unit commanders.  It was Admiral Hackett and such talking to Shepard, not a General.  Remember General Williams was a Marine, but Shepard is on the Admiral path.
4) The skill sets between Navy officers and Marine officers are very different, and a Marine officer could not serve in a "line" position on a ship.  Navy officers must be familiar with navigation, propulsion, engineering, communications, weapons and fleet operations.  Marine officers need to be familiar with ground unit tactics, logistics, things like that...missing are the skills anyone assigned to operate a ship / starship would need to know.  All Marines can do is ride around on ships...which is the genesis of the joke that Marine stands for "My @ss Rides In Navy Equipment".
Etc.  Again this assumes the Alliance is set up along the lines of how current militaries are structured.  I'm surprised Bioware didn't opt to mimic the Canadian military where all they have is the "Canadian Defense Force."

I don't know if there's an Alliance Army, while Navy and Marines are mixed up:
  "The Alliance Navy is the branch of the Systems Alliance military responsible for naval operations. The Alliance Marines, the ground operations branch of the Alliance military, are a specialized branch of the Navy."

Shep was a marine, because:
"N7 is a vocational code in the Systems Alliance military. The "N" designates special forces and the "7" refers to the highest level of proficiency. It applies to marines who have graduated from an elite training program."

At start of ME1, Shep seems to be the "leader of ground forces ("marines")" onboard the Normandy. But then he became "captian by position", not by rank. So onboard he acts as naval officer ("captain"), during missions he act's as marine.
"The divide between naval personnel and ground forces ("marines") is small. Ground units are a specialized branch of the fleet, just as fighter squadrons are. This unity of command is imposed by the futility of fighting without control of orbit; without the navy, any army is pointless. The marines, as a matter of pride, maintain some of their traditional rank titles; for example, marines have Privates and Corporals instead of Servicemen.
In ascending order of responsibility, the ranks of the Alliance are:
ENLISTED
Serviceman 3rd class/Private 2nd class
Serviceman 2nd class/Private 1st class
Serviceman 1st class/Corporal
NCOs
Service Chief
Gunnery Chief (Ash, ME1)
Operations Chief
OFFICERS
2nd Lieutenant
1st Lieutenant
Staff Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander (Shep, ME1)
Staff Commander
Captain/Major
Rear Admiral/General
Admiral
Fleet Admiral"

All quotes: mass effect wiki

Looks like an Admiral could command both, navy and marine. So getting orders by Hackett does not necessarily mean Shep is navy.

P.S. No, that's not offtopic. Not only "navy" also marines can become heros and save, a least one, galaxy. Go Ash!

There are logical inconsistencies in the lore then.  What is a General?  According to this, there should be no such thing as a general, yet canonically we know there is since Ashley's grandad was a General.

Also, the US Marine Corps is closely linked with the US Navy.  There was a time when the USMC was part of the Navy.  That's not exactly true anymore, but they're still closely linked.  USMC officer candidates still attend the US Naval Academy, Marines answer "Aye aye, sir" instead of "yes, sir", and the USMC is still under the authority of the Secretary of the Navy.

I suspect the line in that states that:

"N7 is a vocational code in the Systems Alliance military. The "N" designates special forces and the "7" refers to the highest level of proficiency. It applies to marines who have graduated from an elite training program."

is simply a continuity mistake on the part of the writers.  The fact that Ashley refers to her grandad as a General, and that "generals" don't command ships in the Alliance Navy, tells me that there is likely a somewhat different rank system between the two.  Shepard is a Lieutenant Commander, which is a naval rank.  Ergo, Shepard is Navy Special Forces, Ashley is Marine Corps infantry.  Normally, it'd be unusual for the XO of a warship to be a Naval Special Forces operator, but the unique nature and mission of the Normandy is such that it would make sense.

Modifié par jamesp81, 08 mai 2011 - 03:19 .

[jamesp81]

DWH1982 wrote...

The Marines in ME1 are a division of the Navy.

EDIT: At least that's what the codex entry seems to imply to me.

EDIT2: This also doesn't address why EA itself calls Shepard an "Alliance marine."

And the USMC in real life used to be a division of the US Navy.  The parallels are striking if you look at it.