14023 réponses à ce sujet

[Kacynski]

Sorry for making a double post, but I want to say something on a different topic, and I think its more clear to have it seperated ..

I'm going through ME2 again, this time as FemShep for the first time, and I really hate the conversation at Horizon now. As MShep you will get that nice e-mail afterwards, which takes away the harsh tone from Ashley's words, but as aFemshep you don't get it, so you are stuck with the angry hiss you get from Ash.

As pointed out above, I think it is bad writing what the devs gave us on Horizon. Shepard has no chance at all not acting like a total jerk. I mean, you can convince Tali so easy that you're not working for Cerberus, you can convince Garrus easily, that it is still like old times, but you don't get any chance with Ash. The worst part is the end of the conversation, when Ash refuses to join your squad, by mentioning "I still know where my friends/responsibilites are" and Shepard gives her a blank stare and tells Joker to pick him up. C'mon - that's awful. There is not even a chance to persuade her (not to persuade her to join, but at least persuade her that Shepard is still in line with his believes).

And I think Ash is totally OOC at Horizon. Come on, she is not even close as cold, as she's portrayed there. She seems like she doesn't want to listen to Shepard at all. That's not Ash. Shepard tells her, he was in medical treatment for f***cking two years and she doesn't even ask if he's doing well now? Any irreversable damage to his health? No empathy, like "I can see you have been through a lot"?  She acts like she doesn't give a sh*t for Shepard and that's for sure not Ash - like! We know she cares for people she loves/likes and she would never, ever turn her back on Shepard like the cameo-doppelganger-Ashley Shepard met on Horizon.

I agree shou would never join Shepards squad at that point, because that would mean her abandoning her mission she believes in, but the parting words would be "I don't fell comfortable at all Shepard, seeing you with Cerberus, but it's good to know you still know right from wrong. You tell me you're using them as a tool for your cause, just don't become used by them. I wish I could come with you, to make sure you're not doing something stupid, but I can't. Take care Shepard. *gives him/her a hug*"
but well, we did get the angry hiss by Ash-doppelganger ...

E: spelling

Modifié par Kacynski, 25 juin 2010 - 12:55 .

[SilverRose208]

@ Kacynski - I've gotta say, I love the thought you put into your posts.  It's great to see so many new faces around here. 

As for Wrex, I don't object to her shooting him - I object to her being the only option. Why not Kaidan? Why not Tali or Garrus? As I posted earlier, I think that a) Wrex dying is not an essential point and having Ash as the only one to do it is like putting a checkmark in the "stupid racist ho" box for tha hatez. It's totally unncessary, and, as you mentioned, it should be put back on Shepard. As it stands, there's actually a dialogue option to say, "ASH, WHAT DID YOU DO?!" after she shoots him. Talk about bad writing, IMO ...

As for Horizon, I'm really shocked that the devs let it go with FemShep like that. I can understand some of Ash's reaction, and, frankly, I'd go all angry-woman on Shep too if I were confronted after a two year gap with, "Hey, how you doin'? So... two years ... Wassup?" But it is largely OOC for her, especially if it wasn't a romance situation - certainly not what I would've expected - and it's absolutely amazing to me that we only get the apology letter if you romanced her. I do find it to be a rather infuriating plot device designed to make us cut ties with the ME1 crew - Liara's cameo also.

It really makes me worry about her upcoming role for ME3 - how can they reconcile things with a non-LI Shep, and I doubt they'll put in whole story arcs for an LI-only scenario. I really hope they don't pick up the story with everything's-hunky-dory now. It's important to see how that anger subsides and things are reconciled, IMO.

Edited for da spacing.

Modifié par SilverRose208, 25 juin 2010 - 01:31 .

[Clone 071]

Kacynski wrote...

Reading all the posts about Ash shooting Wrex on Virmire makes me want to play ME1 again to this point, just to see this scene once and make a better judgement on this. Persuasion is the very first thing I max out on my Shepards because in the end ME is still a RPG and I hate not having all dialogue options because my scores are too low, so I can allways convince Wrex, even without doing his armor quest.
Is there even a possibility for Ash shooting at Wrex if you made the armor quest before?
So, admiting I never did see the scene happen ingame, I still don't get why Ash is blamed for shooting Wrex ... it's all Shepards fault in my book. It's him not caring about a crew memeber (by not making the quest) or him not being a good leader (by lacking commanding skills he could have developed at this point) making Wrex go havoc at him. What should Ash do in this case?
Allthough I admit its kind of poor writing, that the player doesn't get it nailed to the face that it's his own fault. There should be the wheel with just two options at that point, like "all other options failed" which results in Ash shooting Wrex and "let it play out" with Wrex killing Shepard, resulting in a critical mission failure.
That's pretty much it - Ash saves Shepard from a critical mission failure, which he could have easily avoided by either paying attention to his crew or by developing his leadership skills. And Ash gets the blame for it

There is not a possibility of Ash killing Wrex if you choose to get Wrex's armor before Virmire. (Just make sure that either Wrex is present during his assignment or you give the armor to him aboard the Normandy) If that happens, Wrex admits that you've done more for him than his family ever did and accepts your leadership, ending the confrontation on Virmire. No paragon points are rewarded though.

And I do think she's in character at that point. After Shepards ask "should I go talk with him?" She say's "Couldn't hurt, ...... well, actually it might hurt" and Shepard says: "Be ready". He doesn't say: "Whatever goes wrong, don't do anything foolish" he says "Be ready". So, what do you expect from a soldier which has been told by his commanding officer to be ready, and then the officer is attacked by an individual that is known for being: a) very skilled in combat, able to regenerate health in seconds, c) has multiple organ backups, d) can fall into a battle bloodrage and on top of it is in its worst mood ever? Do you really think a shot in Wrex feet would have solved the matters?
I'm sure Ash was thinking about her options from the second Shepard tells her to be ready. And she (as I assume any other soldier) came to the conclusion, that if Wrex is going to attack Shepard she will have to kill him. She then chooses the most safe method to kill Wrex quick, before he can do too much harm to Shepard.
Again, don't blame her for that - she did exactly what was expected from a good soldier and she did it exceptionally well.
Final line: The reason Wrex dies is not because Ash shot him, its because Shepard failed as a commander!

Well said. I don't blame her either; it comes with being a Marine. If only most of the Ash-haters had that viewpoint.

[KendallX23]

Clone 071 wrote...

Kacynski wrote...

Reading all the posts about Ash shooting Wrex on Virmire makes me want to play ME1 again to this point, just to see this scene once and make a better judgement on this. Persuasion is the very first thing I max out on my Shepards because in the end ME is still a RPG and I hate not having all dialogue options because my scores are too low, so I can allways convince Wrex, even without doing his armor quest.
Is there even a possibility for Ash shooting at Wrex if you made the armor quest before?
So, admiting I never did see the scene happen ingame, I still don't get why Ash is blamed for shooting Wrex ... it's all Shepards fault in my book. It's him not caring about a crew memeber (by not making the quest) or him not being a good leader (by lacking commanding skills he could have developed at this point) making Wrex go havoc at him. What should Ash do in this case?
Allthough I admit its kind of poor writing, that the player doesn't get it nailed to the face that it's his own fault. There should be the wheel with just two options at that point, like "all other options failed" which results in Ash shooting Wrex and "let it play out" with Wrex killing Shepard, resulting in a critical mission failure.
That's pretty much it - Ash saves Shepard from a critical mission failure, which he could have easily avoided by either paying attention to his crew or by developing his leadership skills. And Ash gets the blame for it

There is not a possibility of Ash killing Wrex if you choose to get Wrex's armor before Virmire. (Just make sure that either Wrex is present during his assignment or you give the armor to him aboard the Normandy) If that happens, Wrex admits that you've done more for him than his family ever did and accepts your leadership, ending the confrontation on Virmire. No paragon points are rewarded though.

And I do think she's in character at that point. After Shepards ask "should I go talk with him?" She say's "Couldn't hurt, ...... well, actually it might hurt" and Shepard says: "Be ready". He doesn't say: "Whatever goes wrong, don't do anything foolish" he says "Be ready". So, what do you expect from a soldier which has been told by his commanding officer to be ready, and then the officer is attacked by an individual that is known for being: a) very skilled in combat, able to regenerate health in seconds, c) has multiple organ backups, d) can fall into a battle bloodrage and on top of it is in its worst mood ever? Do you really think a shot in Wrex feet would have solved the matters?
I'm sure Ash was thinking about her options from the second Shepard tells her to be ready. And she (as I assume any other soldier) came to the conclusion, that if Wrex is going to attack Shepard she will have to kill him. She then chooses the most safe method to kill Wrex quick, before he can do too much harm to Shepard.
Again, don't blame her for that - she did exactly what was expected from a good soldier and she did it exceptionally well.
Final line: The reason Wrex dies is not because Ash shot him, its because Shepard failed as a commander!

Well said. I don't blame her either; it comes with being a Marine. If only most of the Ash-haters had that viewpoint.

so soldiers are all executioners now ?..sorry no matter what u say...i do not like killing someone from behind...never will...no matter the reason...

  i am not an Ash hater and yet i do not have that viewpoint

[Clone 071]

I'm not accusing anyone of hating Ash. I just say that because that's one of the reasons they use to dislike her. I'm not trying to justify what she did was the right, but I'm not saying that it is was bad decision either.

All I have to really say is that Ash followed a military leadership principle: Know your subordinates and look out for their welfare. (whether that subordinate is your CO or one of lower rank) And if Wrex gets killed by Ash, then the player failed to follow that principle. (the subordinate being Wrex himself)

Edit: Unless the player wants Wrex to die or just doesn't have a problem with Wrex dying.

Modifié par Clone 071, 25 juin 2010 - 02:01 .

[drunken pyromaniac]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have no problem with Ashley killing Wrex on Virmire. He's a 800 pound mountain of muscle armed with an armory's worth of weaponry. What is she supposed to do? Let Wrex kill Shepard? From that distance Shepard stands little chance against a krogan.

[KendallX23]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have no problem with Ashley killing Wrex on Virmire. He's a 800 pound mountain of muscle armed with an armory's worth of weaponry. What is she supposed to do? Let Wrex kill Shepard? From that distance Shepard stands little chance against a krogan.

Zaeed too down a krogan one on one.....u tell me SHepard is weaker then Zaeed....i think Shep could have handled Wrex ..Well in the end really is up tp the player...Ash is not shooting nobody if SHep is smart...

[Clone 071]

KendallX23 wrote...

Well in the end really is up tp the player...Ash is not shooting nobody if SHep is smart...

Exactly.

[Kacynski]

KendallX23 wrote...

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have no problem with Ashley killing Wrex on Virmire. He's a 800 pound mountain of muscle armed with an armory's worth of weaponry. What is she supposed to do? Let Wrex kill Shepard? From that distance Shepard stands little chance against a krogan.

Zaeed too down a krogan one on one.....u tell me SHepard is weaker then Zaeed....i think Shep could have handled Wrex ..Well in the end really is up tp the player...Ash is not shooting nobody if SHep is smart...

Well, Zaeed downed a generic Krogan, which Shep can deal with singlehandedly, but then Wrex is not your average Krogan - he's a battle stained, centuries old Krogan Warlord . Maybe that's the reason behind the Ash - hate coming from some of the Wrex - lovers. But as you point out - that's hate she doesn't deserve, because her actions come from poor Shepard decisions and bad writing (she being the only one able to interfere with that scene).

[drunken pyromaniac]

I don't have the DLC so I have no idea what you're talking about. The fact remains that a being that can rip your arm off and beat you to death with it is standing about five feet away from Shepard. Why take a chance you don't have to?

Modifié par drunken pyromaniac, 25 juin 2010 - 04:05 .

[V-rex]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I don't have the DLC so I have no idea what you're talking about. The fact remains that a being that can rip your arm off and beat you to death with it is standing about five feet away from Shepard. Why take a chance you don't have to?

Exactly, her response was logical. Admittedly I am still a huge fan of Wrex so I made sure that didn't happen but still I do think Ashley was right to be cautious about the Wrex/Shepard confrontation.
As others have said, it's not Ashley's fault that it happens the way it does, it's the players fault.

[Kacynski]

To bump our thread back on top, I'd like to go back to Horizon (and moreso because I still feel bad for the way it was implemented).

I think all of us Ashley lovers agree, that the way Horizon plays out and especially the dialogue choices we got for Shepard are kind of a downer. What would you like to have said to her?

..........

I just deleted my attempt to make up a good dialogue between Ash and Shepard, just couldn't doo it. Actually I think she is kind of right with her accusations. Given a choice my Shepard wouldn't work with Cerberus neither, but that's not in the game unfortunately, at least not until the very end.

But at least, I would like to have had the option of one last line before the departing, after she says, that she won't come with him:

"I'm sorry Ash and I understand your feelings. I have no words right now I could give you for explanation, it just feels like I have to go down that path. But whereever I go and whatever will happen, I will allways love you. Take care of yourself, good bye (or maybe even God bless you, if you told her you also believe in god in ME1).

Anyway, its so good to get that e-mail after horizon ....

[V-rex]

Kacynski wrote...

To bump our thread back on top, I'd like to go back to Horizon (and moreso because I still feel bad for the way it was implemented).

I think all of us Ashley lovers agree, that the way Horizon plays out and especially the dialogue choices we got for Shepard are kind of a downer. What would you like to have said to her?

..........

I just deleted my attempt to make up a good dialogue between Ash and Shepard, just couldn't doo it. Actually I think she is kind of right with her accusations. Given a choice my Shepard wouldn't work with Cerberus neither, but that's not in the game unfortunately, at least not until the very end.

But at least, I would like to have had the option of one last line before the departing, after she says, that she won't come with him:

"I'm sorry Ash and I understand your feelings. I have no words right now I could give you for explanation, it just feels like I have to go down that path. But whereever I go and whatever will happen, I will allways love you. Take care of yourself, good bye (or maybe even God bless you, if you told her you also believe in god in ME1).

Anyway, its so good to get that e-mail after horizon ....

Yeah I agree, I too wish we could have given a better explanation to Ashley on Horizon as well as show more emotion, I also agree that it was good to recieve the email as I found it quite well written and fitting with her character somewhat.
Still here's hoping Shepard has something with more emotional merit to say to Ash in Mass Effect 3.

[Lord Zeuss]

Kacynski wrote...

To bump our thread back on top, I'd like to go back to Horizon (and moreso because I still feel bad for the way it was implemented).

I think all of us Ashley lovers agree, that the way Horizon plays out and especially the dialogue choices we got for Shepard are kind of a downer. What would you like to have said to her?

..........

I just deleted my attempt to make up a good dialogue between Ash and Shepard, just couldn't doo it. Actually I think she is kind of right with her accusations. Given a choice my Shepard wouldn't work with Cerberus neither, but that's not in the game unfortunately, at least not until the very end.

But at least, I would like to have had the option of one last line before the departing, after she says, that she won't come with him:

"I'm sorry Ash and I understand your feelings. I have no words right now I could give you for explanation, it just feels like I have to go down that path. But whereever I go and whatever will happen, I will allways love you. Take care of yourself, good bye (or maybe even God bless you, if you told her you also believe in god in ME1).

Anyway, its so good to get that e-mail after horizon ....

Kacy, I love how you take the time to write such comprehensive posts. It's refreshing.:happy:

As far as dialogue choices for Shepard, he should have been less concerned about pushing the Cerberus agenda and more concerned about Ashley.  He does this with Tali and Garrus, so we know he's not bad at convincing people he used to know closely.

"Ash, you're letting how you feel about Cerberus get in the way of the facts." WTF?! (what-the-fruitbasket) That is no way to talk to someone like Ashley expecting her to see your side of things. Whatever happened to "If I'm going through hell, I want someone I trust at my side."? If it weren't for the shiny new love interests I'd say this was just incompetent writing, but I suspect it was malignant writing, purposefully designed to widen the gap and push us away from the ME1 crew. It may be Bioware's prerogative as the developer to do so, but it is our prerogative as the fans and consumers (their paycheck comes from us) to like or dislike what they do with our dollar.

Shepard didn't do enough--anything, in fact--to lay Ashley's Cerberus fears about him to rest. He'll say to Tali that he "fully expects them to betray us later on", but he tells Ash that they're not all that bad. In-ex-cusable!

"Ash, I hate Cerberus as much as you do, but even more I hate that it seems they're the only ones willing to do something about our missing colonies. You know me, you know I wouldn't do this for Cerberus; I'm not. I'm doing this because I know I have to, and I believe it's the right thing. If the Collectors aren't stopped, the human race vanishes from the galaxy with no one having done anything to prevent it. Ash, I can't ask you to forgive me for doing this, or to trust Cerberus, but I need you to trust in me."

That makes wayyyyyy too much sense.<_<

[SilverRose208]

Lord Zeuss wrote...
"Ash, I hate Cerberus as much as you do, but even more I hate that it seems they're the only ones willing to do something about our missing colonies. You know me, you know I wouldn't do this for Cerberus; I'm not. I'm doing this because I know I have to, and I believe it's the right thing. If the Collectors aren't stopped, the human race vanishes from the galaxy with no one having done anything to prevent it. Ash, I can't ask you to forgive me for doing this, or to trust Cerberus, but I need you to trust in me."

LZ - I love this.  Very well said - and infinitely better than what we actually got a chance to say.  If only, eh? 

[Raanz]

I've played through ME2 quite a few times, and I am starting to form the opinion that the devs wanted to give you every reason to explore a new LI. All LI from the first one are treated in this manner. Very vague conversations, with lots of questions attached to them. Not a whole lot of choice for you the player to extend the conversation or get answers. The formula seemed to be: meet old love interest >get blown off by said love interest >give a hint of a possible reconciliation > out of the picture.

It appears to me to be just a very generic way to get the players to move on.

[Errol Dnamyx]

There are no other LI in ME.

[pprrff]

1. I don't think the Virmire with Wrex is an example of bad writing. On the contrary I think its kinda cool. Here is why: In all the other RPG games, what would happen is that Shepard will either get a good ending by calming down Wrex, or a bad ending when you have to kill Wrex. Having Ash be the shooter kinda suprised me, i thought it was a refreshing break of conventional writing. I don't  think it speak's Ash personality or anything, it would have work if it was Kaidan or Garrus who pulled the trigger.

2. Again, for the Horizon part, I'd like to play the devil advocate and defend bioware's way of giving cameo to ME1 squad mate. I thought it work alright as far reminding us that Ash/Kaidan is still around while inventing a reason why they aren't recuited. Its arguable whether more could been done, but I feel Bioware doesn't want the spot light to be on them

Modifié par pprrff, 25 juin 2010 - 07:57 .

[pprrff]

Raanz wrote...

I've played through ME2 quite a few times, and I am starting to form the opinion that the devs wanted to give you every reason to explore a new LI. All LI from the first one are treated in this manner. Very vague conversations, with lots of questions attached to them. Not a whole lot of choice for you the player to extend the conversation or get answers. The formula seemed to be: meet old love interest >get blown off by said love interest >give a hint of a possible reconciliation > out of the picture.
It appears to me to be just a very generic way to get the players to move on.

They wanted the player to get to know the other character they created for the 2nd game, which is a reaonable thing to do. But I posted before that I feel Ash/Kaidan will be the Canon LI for the trilogy. It's a good bet I think to say that unless ME2 save is imported to ME3, the only romance option player will have is Ash/Kaidan/Liara.

[ashlover mark 2]

i belive this is ashley related and topic related,and seeing as a good deal of us actualy like ash shooting wrex here ya go

Modifié par ashlover mark 2, 25 juin 2010 - 08:01 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

rawr nice caption bro

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 25 juin 2010 - 08:05 .

[ashlover mark 2]

thnx errol,i didnt make it though.its something i found on photobucket awhile back lol

heres another one for the topic of moveing on/cheating
moral of the story.....dont cheat on ashley williams or there will be lead, high velocity conscqences

Modifié par ashlover mark 2, 25 juin 2010 - 08:29 .

[Raanz]

LiamN7 wrote...

Raanz wrote...

I've played through ME2 quite a few times, and I am starting to form the opinion that the devs wanted to give you every reason to explore a new LI. All LI from the first one are treated in this manner. Very vague conversations, with lots of questions attached to them. Not a whole lot of choice for you the player to extend the conversation or get answers. The formula seemed to be: meet old love interest >get blown off by said love interest >give a hint of a possible reconciliation > out of the picture.
It appears to me to be just a very generic way to get the players to move on.

I agree with you Raanz. I think they wanted players to give up and move on. Remember ME2 was supposed to be emotionally engaging. No I didn't and wont move on. I still wonder not what bioware did but why. Did leaving the ME LI out make it easier to write? Harder to write a relationship over three whole games I know but did they just take the cheap way out? Or was it those so very important new players? Dont want to confuse them with people they never met. Again this is a cheap way out. But its a suicide misson, you whouldn't want your LI on that mission we are saving them, they are important. So Important we don't want them having any real time in game. So important we didn't want to introduce them to new players. So important that we had to keep them away from the people who play this game and love these characters. We have to save  Ash , Kaidan, and Liara for ME3.   Now what does that say about ME2 characters. Weren't important enough to save from ME2?   Hmmm,...
Understand I love Bioware. They are my favorite game company. So if I every seem harse or mean toward them , I hold them to a high standard. Their  history and their promise. We were told many things about this game and these relationships. I am an Ash fan, I will be an Ash fan even if all I have is ME1.
I guess I am just waiting for the payoff,..... or the punchline,...

I think you make an important point here, one that others have touched on as well.  If you had a LI in ME1, that character be it Ash, Kaidan or Liara, they are untouchable in ME2.  They will be around for ME3.  Any LI that you took in ME2 could have been lost during the mission.  Not saying they were, I'm just pointing out that the possibility was there.  That tells me that the ME1 characters are and play a much more important role in ME3.
Just theories of course.