115 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

It's not surprising, really - in Stolen Throne he was portrayed as a taciturn man who rarely showed his feeling to anyone. It's not that he doesn't have feelings so much as he doesn't feel comfortable talking to the Warden about them. He's the kind of guy to suck it up and get on with it.

[Avilia]

I saved Loghain for the first time this run through.

I'm surprised at what an interesting character he is. I'm enjoying talking to him and getting some insights I missed.

Oddly - his opinon of Alistair as a king is the same as mine ;-)...(don't hit me, I bruise easily)

Oh  I should say its taken me a long time to do it - mainly due to RP - I decided in the end a Mage would have the least reason to want to kill him.  And what Riordan says makes perfect sense - if you take into account the often repeated "whatever it takes", then making him a GW is sensible.

Modifié par Avilia, 28 mai 2010 - 11:45 .

[Giggles_Manically]

When Loghain told me, "I wish I had seen the strength Duncan had seen earlier", how sorry he was, how willing he was to make amends for his country, and listening to his banter with Dog I litterally went from hating his guts to seeing him as a tragic hero in the end. Also Anora's face when I told her how her father went willing into oblivion was very sad.

I mean Loghain knows full well that slaying the archdemon will blow his soul into oblivion, and he is still soloing an angry wounded Archdemon, but his face showed such resolve in the end that I actually was impressed, How many of us would do the same i wonder. Loghain could have walked right out of a Shakespearen tragedy. In short one of the best written and voiced NPCs in Dragon Age, and a good reason to avoid the DR.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 29 mai 2010 - 01:13 .

[Hyper Cutter]

MistySun wrote...

How can anyone allow Loghain to live. He was a traitor. He was evil. He hired an assassin to kill the grey warden...amongst other things..
You don't allow a person who tries to kill you live...or do you?

You're not really "letting him live" so much as giving him a drawn-out death sentence...

[Cyberfrog81]

You can even tell Anora not to expect him to live much longer. Harsh (to say the least), but she can take it.



Loghain as a Grey Warden even seems appropriate somehow (despite what Alistair thinks). He almost caused their downfall and now he is one himself.

[Addai]

Grace1957 wrote...

I'm on my third play and  I want to keep Loghain alive this time only because I never did before but the thought is turning my stomach.Silly I know,it"s just a game but......


Thoughts.....

(husband)

It's definitely one of the harder role play rationalizations.    While there positive things he brings to the table, there's such a mountain of baggage that in most situations its really just easier to kill him, if not for all the things he's done to you and Allistair, when you add up everybody else......


I just spared him myself a month ago, playing a human noble who was mostly good/philanthropic but had his own self interests in mind when it came to feathering his nest post Blight. (Marrying Anora, becoming Prince Consort).    I wanted to have a different play through then the others.    And I have to say, selling Allistair down the river is really worth it!    You see some stuff that you normally wouldn't and it does add some spice to some game plays that may be getting a little tired after 6-7 months of fairly heavy gaming.



In terms of role playing I did have a case laid out for Ansel where it made sense.


1) Ansel's primary hidden reason for doing this was going out of his way to give Anora a good engagement gift and show he's a team player etc.  to get the partnership off to a good start (He sees the Prince role as a real plum position, as far as life style and social status goes.   He also thinks she's attractive, and itsn't that bothered by her negative personality traits, believeing he's got just enough charisma of his own to deal with her).



2) He believes that the need for the Theirins to continuosly hold the throne in pertituity is a complete Social Myth.   Cailan's breeding and mentoring didn't save him for being a weak and foolish king.   Allistair with his blood line has shown less leadership potential then he has, and even Maric in order to be a "good king" had to be propped up and ride the coat tails of Loghain and Rowan much of the time.    Eamon himself seems to be pushing Allistair irregardless of the other facts citing mostly classical history than that of more recent times to make his case. While Ansel believes him to be a "good man" he also believes "he's got his own dog in the hunt" on this issue.   My character also believes that the Anora / Cousland rule is actually the strongest of all the options based on the resumes both characters bring to the table.



3)Riodan point about the danger of the Blight is convincing.   It literally does threaten the entire world, so an end justifies the means does make sense when facing a danger that is literally overwhelming.  Ansel also has succeeded in persuading Allistair and everybody else in the past to his way of thinking with his Coercion skill.   So Ansel keeps holding out hope up until the last moments that he can get him to back down.    And even when does leave he tends to see that as a temporary set back.   He deserted for the main fight, but when the battle is over "Cooler heads will prevail" and he will be able to negotiate something.    He intends to set up an arrangement where both characters can be gray wardens but they will be assigned to different posts and not have to cross paths.  



4) The game never gives you the option to make a religious argument (Which it should have since Instutional Religion is such a big part of the game) but I was actually going to play the Andraste card.    The gauntlet test shows you that mercy is one of the virtues reverenced by this cult.    And Allistair himself along with the other "good" NPCs do in fact pay lip service to this messianic figure.    So I would have given the chance told him "To put his Faith into practice!"      I might also  point out, that the level of damage inflicted by Loghain seems on par with that of a certain noble lady who he lobbied for who sacrificed most of her kingdom for her son.....  And so on.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 mai 2010 - 05:43 .

[Grace1957]

OK ,Loghain just killed the AD and I just read the whole ending story.....

ALISTAIR TURNS INTO A DRUNK?!?!?!?!?!

I'm going to go cry in the shower now.

[sylvanaerie]

Grace1957 wrote...

OK ,Loghain just killed the AD and I just read the whole ending story.....

ALISTAIR TURNS INTO A DRUNK?!?!?!?!?!

I'm going to go cry in the shower now.

yea sorry sweetie, I didn't want to spoiler you.  Congrats on the Achievement though. 

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 30 mai 2010 - 04:47 .

[Grace1957]

A hot shower and a BIG glass of wine and I'm better.Talk about a shock.I thought he'd be standing around pouting.

[sylvanaerie]

Grace1957 wrote...

A hot shower and a BIG glass of wine and I'm better.Talk about a shock.I thought he'd be standing around pouting.

nope sorry that only happens if you marry him to Anora.  Otherwise he's gone.  I like to think (and D Gaider has confirmed it on the boards) that Alistair comes to regret what happened. Maybe your PC and he could actually meet up sometime in the future and reconcile. 

[Grace1957]

Well, I've played all 3 classes and I like the rogue the best so I think #4 will be a city elf rogue.I read that origin is one of the best.The human (and the chance to marry Al) will have to wait.Off I go.

[sylvanaerie]

Grace1957 wrote...

Well, I've played all 3 classes and I like the rogue the best so I think #4 will be a city elf rogue.I read that origin is one of the best.The human (and the chance to marry Al) will have to wait.Off I go.

hehe OMG CEF is AWESOME FUN!!!  Thats my second favorite Origin!  (HN edges out to #1 for me because of the sheer warm magnificence of the Cousland family).
Have fun!

[Cyberfrog81]

City Elf origin is very good. But nasty too.



Hardened Alistair marrying Anora with Loghain alive (at least until you possibly allow him - NOT order him - to sacrifice himself) is not so bad for Alistair. I actually recommend everyone spare Loghain at least in one playthrough, as you might actually change your opinion of him somewhat.

[Finiffa]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...
Hardened Alistair marrying Anora with Loghain alive (at least until you possibly allow him - NOT order him - to sacrifice himself) is not so bad for Alistair. I actually recommend everyone spare Loghain at least in one playthrough, as you might actually change your opinion of him somewhat.

I did this one playthrough and it didnt change my mind on him...he dies in every other playthrough. I did not find him very interesting at all, and I did not feel the regret that some seem to feel....

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain is better than Alister for me, Ali is just a whiny little nob who cant stand when things go his way, and his whole rant when you make him king later is priceless but immature

[sylvanaerie]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain is better than Alister for me, Ali is just a whiny little nob who cant stand when things go his way, and his whole rant when you make him king later is priceless but immature

To each his own. I actually find Loghain to be incredibly whiny as well (its not my fault, you are all traitors) and pitches a fit when he loses.  NO one is on their best behavior at the Landsmeet.

[Herr Uhl]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain is better than Alister for me, Ali is just a whiny little nob who cant stand when things go his way, and his whole rant when you make him king later is priceless but immature

To each his own. I actually find Loghain to be incredibly whiny as well (its not my fault, you are all traitors) and pitches a fit when he loses.  NO one is on their best behavior at the Landsmeet.

You're both right. It doesn't have to be one of them that is an idiot, both of them are.

[Costin_Razvan]

"I wish I had seen the strength Duncan had seen earlier"

When does he say this, if I might ask?

[jpdipity]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jpdipity wrote...
I also do not find that Logahin has any kind of true remorse through his dialogue if you spare him; so, why bother sparing him and redeming him - it is not a true redemption unless Loghain repents.

Loghain: "Please, I've done so much wrong. Allow me to do one thing right", when he asks you to allow him to kill the archdemon.

Loghain is not the kind of person to get on his knees and beg for forgiveness, but he clearly regrets some of what he did. What he did at Ostagar? He probably doesn't regret (especially after he finds out what Cailan was up to). But the rest, you can easily see in the cutscenes that it's taking a heavy toll on him, both physically and psycologically.

I've never played it, but I've read the dialogue in the toolset and watched the videos on youtube - sorry, I just don't agree that Loghain has any regret and therefore, IMO, he is not worthy of redemption.

I don't expect him to get on knees to beg for forgiveness - he is a proud, stubborn man.  I would expect him to feel some sort of regret for what he did and how he did it.  He should wish that he proceeded differently, but he does not regret any of it nor does he offer to change as a result.  IMO of course, I don't feel as if a person has earned forgiveness or redemption if they are unable to express their regret and repent. 

Here are the instances that come to mind that formed my opinion as well as responses to a few of your points:
-- Before slaying the archdemon, he states as you have quoted, but it is after saying that he will not be remembered a hero and he should take the final blow.  He is not seeking redemption for his wrongs - he is seeking to redeem his reputation.  He may know that he has done things wrong, yet he still does not admit that he should have done things differently.  He sees being added to the ranks of the Grey Wardens as a death sentence not as an opportunity to repent for his wrongs and change his ways.
-- At the Landmeet, after losing the battle, he states that he was wrong.  He is stating that he was wrong about the PC - not what he has done because he goes on to state that he has not seen anyone like the PC since Maric.  So, again, he fails to show that he regrets anything that he has done.  I don't see that he wants to change his ways.  Left of his own devices, Loghain would like do everything the same in the future.  That is not seeking redemption.
-- In RTO, he flat out states that he feels no regret and would do it all over again just as before.  He calls it a "fool's" battle - one in which he planned and agreed should work at the war council. 
-- As far as physcially taking a heavy toll on him - he looks no worse than he did before the battle at Ostagar to me.

Some of my PCs would offer redemption to Loghain because he/she has done it for others if it weren't for two things.  First and foremost, they all see Loghain as a serious threat still due to his popularity and reputation.  My PC certainly can't trust him given his actions against the PC.  Secondly, none of my PCs would betray one of their friends and that is exactly what they would be doing by allowing Loghain's survival given Alistair's strong opinion on the event.  Most of my PCs also heed the advice of their team; so, if my PC had any doubt, Alistair's rant really pushes the PC to believe that redemption is not an option for Loghain.

Whether Loghain deserves redemption or not usually is not really a concern to my PCs anyway.  The main concern for all of them is the first point - he is threat and he cannot be trusted due to his actions against the PC; so, he dies.  Just like Anora will kill Alistair if he does not relenquish his rights to the throne.

Modifié par jpdipity, 30 mai 2010 - 06:40 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't feel as if a person has earned forgiveness or redemption if they are unable to express their regret and repent

You mean the man who sold elves into slavery so he can get an army three times the size he has now?



Or perhaps the one who saved his army at Ostagar from Cailan's madness.



Please.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

"I wish I had seen the strength Duncan had seen earlier"

When does he say this, if I might ask?

Get his approval pretty high and before the big descion he tells you this. One of the most powerdul gaming moments for me. The sky was blood red and the clouds were blowing, the archdemon was down, and then Loghain practically begs you to let him kill the archdemon. He says this line and then "please I have done so much wrong, let me do one thing right.' Just awed me. Alister was probably off somewhere crying and going waggh Duncan, while this happened.

LINK to dialouge below

minus the quoted line, have to follow a different path to see it.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 30 mai 2010 - 09:26 .

[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

"I wish I had seen the strength Duncan had seen earlier"

When does he say this, if I might ask?

Maybe this is the line:
Loghain: I salute you. The Grey Wardens could not have chosen finer. Would that I had been wise enough to realize that sooner. I do my duty now as I always have: with all my heart.

[Ymladdych]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Grace1957 wrote...

A hot shower and a BIG glass of wine and I'm better.Talk about a shock.I thought he'd be standing around pouting.

nope sorry that only happens if you marry him to Anora.  Otherwise he's gone.  I like to think (and D Gaider has confirmed it on the boards) that Alistair comes to regret what happened. Maybe your PC and he could actually meet up sometime in the future and reconcile. 

Then again, it might not be Alistair.  The slide refers to "a haggard drunk," but it doesn't describe the man or make any claim of resemblence.  It only mentions that the guy bitterly rants about having been a prince and a Grey Warden.  (If I remember correctly, I believe that it also states that these types of drunks were not uncommon.)  As far as I'm concerned, it might be Alistair, but it could just as easily NOT be Alistair...which puts the odds at 50/50, one way or the other.

Who knows?  If the "exiled Alistair" ending is supported in future installments, maybe flipping everyone the bird and taking off is ultimately the best thing for him.  I like to think that he might eventually see it as the first opportunity of his life to decide for himself who he is and who he wants to become without the influence of his blood, Arl Eamon, the Nobles, the Chantry, and/or a dominant best friend/lover constantly telling him who he *should* be.  Of course, the downside is that there's still a 50% chance that his regret would lead him to becoming a ranting drunk at the local pub.  But being very much in the "No OGB for Me" camp and feeling uncertain that the US ending will be supported, there aren't a lot of options.  (Other than marrying him to Anora, of course.)

And gratz on getting the achievement!  (Even if it was a downer one.)

Modifié par Ymladdych, 31 mai 2010 - 08:46 .

[Kanner]

Grouping with Loghain was the most fun I have had playing this game. Really, really good lines and a lot of background. Well worth the trade. =)