115 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

I loke the ending where you redeem Loghain, if nothing else it allows me to make Alister grow up and accept the fact that sometimes hard and nasty descions were made. I wished I could have told him um hello you put me a former Carta Thug who murdered people in chrage! Numnuts.



Anywho Loghain Mac Tir, I salute you,

[nos_astra]

Ymladdych wrote...
Who knows?  If the "exiled Alistair" ending is supported in future installments, maybe flipping everyone the bird and taking off is ultimately the best thing for him.  I like to think that he might eventually see it as the first opportunity of his life to decide for himself who he is and who he wants to become without the influence of his blood, Arl Eamon, the Nobles, the Chantry, and/or a dominant best friend/lover constantly telling him who he *should* be.  Of course, the downside is that there's still a 50% chance that his regret would lead him to becoming a ranting drunk at the local pub.

The perfect description why this is one of my favourite endings. So many options, even though I don't expect it to be supported and resolved in the future.

Anora gets her beloved throne, Loghain gets to die a hero (even if I think he doesn't deserve it), my Warden can go and cry her heart out about how Ferelden is happy and she can't even enjoy it because it cost her too much. And Alistair, yeah, maybe he's free.

[Giggles_Manically]

klarabella wrote...

Ymladdych wrote...
Who knows?  If the "exiled Alistair" ending is supported in future installments, maybe flipping everyone the bird and taking off is ultimately the best thing for him.  I like to think that he might eventually see it as the first opportunity of his life to decide for himself who he is and who he wants to become without the influence of his blood, Arl Eamon, the Nobles, the Chantry, and/or a dominant best friend/lover constantly telling him who he *should* be.  Of course, the downside is that there's still a 50% chance that his regret would lead him to becoming a ranting drunk at the local pub.

The perfect description why this is one of my favourite endings. So many options, even though I don't expect it to be supported and resolved in the future.

Anora gets her beloved throne, Loghain gets to die a hero (even if I think he doesn't deserve it), my Warden can go and cry her heart out about how Ferelden is happy and she can't even enjoy it because it cost her too much. And Alistair, yeah, maybe he's free.

What would be funny in the next game or expansion if while being greeted as the hero, Alister crashes the party and blubers while Drunk I WAS A HERO ONCE! Then wakes up in his loves arms and they make up about the whole Landsmeet and losing each other  Oh God I lost 500 manly points, excuse me while I go pop so bandits in Red Dead.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 31 mai 2010 - 06:05 .

[Cenwyn]

Hanz54321 wrote...

"Who is dis un-happy Alistair mahn, Teagaaahn?"

 Eeek gats!, I hear that hag of a harpy that belongs to Eamon opening her whiny mouth again.  Dang nabbit where the hell is Morrigan so we can shut her up then toss her over the cliff!


Back to subject at hand, I refuse to keep him alive. For many different reasons which already exists on another post and that Hanz54321 knows about.  Depending on my mood  at the time I take the throne with Alistair or I let Anora have it and we can go off killing darkspawn together. At least on this game I can follow my own bliss to a certain extent. I can redeem most of my companions but Loghain pushed the line way to far with me.

My biggest beef with him is he was to chicken**** to come take us out himself. Fricking coward! Nooooooo he had to send people to do his dirty work including the Crows who failed miserably. Then at the Landsmeet he tries to justify his actions behind a curtain of paranoia and dishonor and he still slanders us! I did not go through all that adventuring crap before hand just to let him live and redeem himself. My greatest pleasure is dueling him then letting Alistair chop his head off.

And that is my $5.00 worth on the subject of Loghain.

[Dileos]

Honestly I have a lot of respect for Loghain, I see a man who seriously loves his country, his freedom and his daughter. His last few words to Anora before his death is what made me decide to spare him in almost all of my games afterward.

I would compare him to somebody along the lines of Erwin Rommel, a man who wasn't necessarily on the "right" side, he wasn't a "good guy" he was however, a good man worthy of respect. Loghain did all the wrong things for all the right reasons, and even when the entire landsmeet was against him he still stood true to his values.

Now Alistair is somebody I have no respect for anymore.


....and being able to bang Morrigan, Leliana, the girls at the Pearl, Bella, the girls from a few mods, a desire demon and eventually Anora in one play-through is awesome.

Modifié par Dileos, 02 juin 2010 - 08:16 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Alister fans will forever hate Loghain, even though Alister is so blinded by revenge he flees his home, like a child and abandons it to the Blight. While Loghain goes and does what is right in the end. So in short Alister loses a lot of respect for me.

[Kenshen]

jpdipity wrote...

MistySun wrote...

How can anyone allow Loghain to live. He was a traitor. He was evil. He hired an assassin to kill the grey warden...amongst other things..
You don't allow a person who tries to kill you live...or do you?

He's absolutely NOT evil - read the books.  It's much more complicated than that... 

On the surface, I see many reasons to spare Loghain, the hero.  I am not a Loghain fan, I admit.

My PCs whether "evil" or "good" can not betray Alistair nor can they bear the potential risk of a Loghain betrayal; so, he dies every single time. 

I also do not find that Loghain has any kind of true remorse through his dialogue if you spare him; so, why bother sparing him and redeming him - it is not a true redemption unless Loghain repents.

There is more too consider than if he is really sorry for what he did to the GW.  The country was/is on the verge of civil war, yes Loghain caused that too but most of the common folk are not aware of all that has happened and still view him as a great general and leader.  By allowing him to reedem himself you are taking a great step foward for the country as a whole.  Once everything is over many places will need to be rebuilt I would rather have everyone focus on that rather than endless debates about Loghain which most likely would lead to war as well.  Of course it is your game and you are free to play it as you wish.  The great thing about roleplaying.

[jpdipity]

aryon69 wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

MistySun wrote...

How can anyone allow Loghain to live. He was a traitor. He was evil. He hired an assassin to kill the grey warden...amongst other things..
You don't allow a person who tries to kill you live...or do you?

He's absolutely NOT evil - read the books.  It's much more complicated than that... 

On the surface, I see many reasons to spare Loghain, the hero.  I am not a Loghain fan, I admit.

My PCs whether "evil" or "good" can not betray Alistair nor can they bear the potential risk of a Loghain betrayal; so, he dies every single time. 

I also do not find that Loghain has any kind of true remorse through his dialogue if you spare him; so, why bother sparing him and redeming him - it is not a true redemption unless Loghain repents.

There is more too consider than if he is really sorry for what he did to the GW.  The country was/is on the verge of civil war, yes Loghain caused that too but most of the common folk are not aware of all that has happened and still view him as a great general and leader.  By allowing him to reedem himself you are taking a great step foward for the country as a whole.  Once everything is over many places will need to be rebuilt I would rather have everyone focus on that rather than endless debates about Loghain which most likely would lead to war as well.  Of course it is your game and you are free to play it as you wish.  The great thing about roleplaying.

I agree that there is a lot more to consider when deciding to keep him alive or not.  I thought that was what I said - sorry, it may not have been clear because I stated it much earlier in the post - oops.

There are a ton of reasons to spare Loghain.  

My PC's decision to not spare him has nothing to do with whether he deserves redemption, but because he cannot be trusted by the PC and poses too big a threat if left alive.   I personnally feel that Loghain does not deserve redemption because he does not repent.

Hopefully, that makes more sense. 

As far as taking the country forward by keeping him alive - I disagree with that.  I think an alive Loghain is much more confusing for the country than a dead one.  Although stripped of his former role, he may still be looked to by many for leadership and could pose a threat to the real authority of the Fereldan.

Modifié par jpdipity, 02 juin 2010 - 09:37 .

[nos_astra]

jsr24 wrote...
My duty as a Grey Warden is to end the Blight we need Grey Wardens to end it even if you do not know the details of why you know they are needed and only having 3 Grey Wardens is not good odds, so it is logical to get another Warden possibly and in the process give Loghain a chance to redeem himself if he survives if he dies he can no longer be a harm to you,...

Why Loghain? Why not someone else? I don't see any reason to recruit Loghain. Things are dire and it's mostly Loghain's fault that Ferelden is almost consumed by the Blight and that we are only 3 Wardens. So, unless I signed a contract that says I'm obliged to recruit every self-important ass Riordan suggests, I prefer doing my duty with only three Wardens. Three or four doesn't make that much of a difference and Alistair is very vocal about leaving, so it would be ridiculous to trade a loyal friend for an old man I can't trust and who might not even survive the Joining.

I would be a crappy GW if my ego is more important then a reasonable choice at this point.

Edit: That's actually not entirely true, I do play characters that recruit Loghain. I just can't bring myself to play this decision as something else than an unnecessarily high risk my Warden accepts because of her character flaws. My Wardens always kind of regret this decision and will probably always wonder what would have happened if they'd been able to step back and listen to Alistair.

Modifié par klarabella, 02 juin 2010 - 11:23 .

[maxernst]

I'd honestly recruit Howe before I'd recruit Loghain. I can predict and manipulate the behavior of someone who is venal and self-serving. Delusional and self-righteous is something I really don't want anywhere near me.

Modifié par maxernst, 02 juin 2010 - 11:02 .

[Dileos]

klarabella wrote...

jsr24 wrote...
My duty as a Grey Warden is to end the Blight we need Grey Wardens to end it even if you do not know the details of why you know they are needed and only having 3 Grey Wardens is not good odds, so it is logical to get another Warden possibly and in the process give Loghain a chance to redeem himself if he survives if he dies he can no longer be a harm to you,...

Why Loghain? Why not someone else? I don't see any reason to recruit Loghain. Things are dire and it's mostly Loghain's fault that Ferelden is almost consumed by the light and that we are only 3 Wardens. So, unless I signed a contract that says I'm obliged to recruit every self-important ass Riordan suggests, I prefer doing my duty with only three Wardens. Three or four doesn#t make that much of a difference and Alistair is very vocal aout leaving, so it would be ridiculous to trade a loyal friend for an old man I can't trust and who might not even survive the Joining.

I would be a crappy GW if my ego is more important then a reasonable choice at this point.

That old man is also the hero of the River Dane, father to the queen of Ferelden and one of the best tacticians in Thedas.  Keeping him alive is vital for both the stratagy of the battle/battles to come and for the morale of the human soldiers from Denirim and the Bannorn. It was said multiple times throughout the game that Loghain is seen as a war hero and an icon in Ferelden.

Besides, Alistair lets his emotions get in the way of his job, who you are makes no difference to the Wardens, something that both Duncan and Riordan understand. Alistair throws a temper tantrum and then stomps out of the landsmeet like a child. He turns his back on everything it means to be a Grey Warden and abandons Ferelden and possibly the world to the blight just because he doesn't get his way.

Modifié par Dileos, 02 juin 2010 - 11:06 .

[sylvanaerie]

this thread amuses the hell outta me. It started off someone asked a question about how to do it, not why. And it degenerates into Loghain Vs Alistair thread number 256. There is only one reason to spare (or execute) Loghain. I said it up thread and I repeat it.

Entertainment. Your money, your game, play however you like. If you think the old fart is fun to have in your group, go for it. If you prefer to stick with Alistair go that route. Neither side is going to change their minds.

Even if I didn't lose Alistair I would still kill Loghain because ultimately, that's what entertains me. My money, my game, no excuses cause thats the only reason you really need.

[Dileos]

sylvanaerie wrote...

this thread amuses the hell outta me. It started off someone asked a question about how to do it

You've been here since page 1, so you should know (I would hope atleast) that he didn't ask how to do it. He asked for thoughts on the matter, and people are giving thoughts on the matter. Not really seeing your point.

[Addai]

aryon69 wrote...

There is more too consider than if he is really sorry for what he did to the GW.  The country was/is on the verge of civil war, yes Loghain caused that too but most of the common folk are not aware of all that has happened and still view him as a great general and leader. 

Not really the case if you listen to the gossips in the Frostbacks and Denerim.  They talk about the uprisings in the Bannorn, and riots in Highever and Gwaren.

[Kenshen]

Addai67 wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

There is more too consider than if he is really sorry for what he did to the GW.  The country was/is on the verge of civil war, yes Loghain caused that too but most of the common folk are not aware of all that has happened and still view him as a great general and leader. 

Not really the case if you listen to the gossips in the Frostbacks and Denerim.  They talk about the uprisings in the Bannorn, and riots in Highever and Gwaren.

Gossip yeah but I can't think ever hearing any of the peasants calling for Loghain's head.   Just because there are problems who to blame for them isn't well known.

@ jpdipity -  Yeah you did I quoted the wrong post that is my bad.  And I do agree with the other guy that it all comes down too what you as the player wish to do.  I only stated my opinion to share what my personal thought process would be.  Trust me for as much as I have played this game there have been plenty of times Loghain never left the Landsmeet.

[sylvanaerie]

Never Mind

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 03 juin 2010 - 12:10 .

[Dileos]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Dileos wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

this thread amuses the hell outta me. It started off someone asked a question about how to do it

You've been here since page 1, so you should know (I would hope atleast) that he didn't ask how to do it. He asked for thoughts on the matter, and people are giving thoughts on the matter. Not really seeing your point.

Actually been here since page 1 and he/she DID ask how it was done, not why or even what other people thought of the matter.  The OP had never done it and wanted to know how to keep Loghain alive at the Landsmeet and didn't realize the mechanics of how it was done.  OP knew they wanted to do it, and knew why they wanted to do it.  My point is that this question raised has led to another Loghain vs Alistair debate. 
I just find it amusing is all. 

Ah my mistake. I only read the first post, after wading through the thread a little bit, you're right.

Modifié par Dileos, 03 juin 2010 - 12:10 .

[jpdipity]

aryon69 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

There is more too consider than if he is really sorry for what he did to the GW.  The country was/is on the verge of civil war, yes Loghain caused that too but most of the common folk are not aware of all that has happened and still view him as a great general and leader. 

Not really the case if you listen to the gossips in the Frostbacks and Denerim.  They talk about the uprisings in the Bannorn, and riots in Highever and Gwaren.

Gossip yeah but I can't think ever hearing any of the peasants calling for Loghain's head.   Just because there are problems who to blame for them isn't well known.

@ jpdipity -  Yeah you did I quoted the wrong post that is my bad.  And I do agree with the other guy that it all comes down too what you as the player wish to do.  I only stated my opinion to share what my personal thought process would be.  Trust me for as much as I have played this game there have been plenty of times Loghain never left the Landsmeet.

I agree with you - there are so many reasons to go either way, it is simply the player's preference.  That ambiguity adds significantly to the game play in my opinion.

As for the gossip:
The gossip points to both support and opposition for Loghain - the commoners seem divided very divided about the issue.  Certainly calling for Loghain's head wouldn't be wise for any commoner to state lest it be heard by the wrong person and they end up dead for treason.

One piece of gossip specifically mentions that Loghain wrongly abandonned the King.  There is another one that mentions that he has taken over the regency illegally (not in those words).  I thought that there was also one that states Loghain planned his betrayal of the King because of Anora for some reason. 

There are also other pieces of gossip that show significant support for him. 

So, it very much seems like a country divided in my opinion.  Which is one of the reasons why I see keeping Loghain alive as a potential threat to the throne and a risk for the PC.  His death eliminates all that mess.

[Addai]

aryon69 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

There is more too consider than if he is really sorry for what he did to the GW.  The country was/is on the verge of civil war, yes Loghain caused that too but most of the common folk are not aware of all that has happened and still view him as a great general and leader. 

Not really the case if you listen to the gossips in the Frostbacks and Denerim.  They talk about the uprisings in the Bannorn, and riots in Highever and Gwaren.

Gossip yeah but I can't think ever hearing any of the peasants calling for Loghain's head.   Just because there are problems who to blame for them isn't well known.

The gossips in the Frostbacks do talk about such a plot, and the riots are attributed to Loghain's unpopularity.   Anora herself says that Denerim is in an uproar about Ostagar.  Some gossip chatter also repeats Loghain's charges against the Grey Wardens, though I think you hear that more in the early part of the game.  I was responding to the idea that the common people are indifferent.  Clearly they are not.

[nos_astra]

jpdipity wrote...
I thought that there was also one that states Loghain planned his betrayal of the King because of Anora for some reason.

Which would almost make sense. Maybe he did know about the letters (or Eamon's plans) from RtO and was planning to get rid off Cailan (and secure the throne for Anora), happily seizing the opportunity at Ostagar.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2010 - 04:36 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Given his reaction in RtO, I somehow doubt he did know...he suspected, I believe.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 04:41 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Given his reaction in RtO, I somehow doubt he did know...he suspected, I believe.

Is there a possibility he's just pretending that he didn't know?

It wouldn't really matter because if I chose to roleplay it this way as my PC wouldn't know what Loghain has to say anyway, but does it interfere with what we do know or is it something that might be possible? It would still be "for the good of Ferelden" because Cailan was incompetent and without Anora probably a danger in Loghain's eyes. Guilty of treason but still doing something for the greater good in his mind ... and it would make sense as to why he would refuse to salvage Cailan's corpse in RtO.

Edit:
Thinking about it, it would even explain why Anora and Cauthrien would say he's gone mad. They don't know what he knows. Does this make sense?

Modifié par klarabella, 04 juin 2010 - 04:53 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Is there a possibility he's just pretending that he didn't know?

I doubt it, but given the fact Cailan was about to invite four bloody legions in Fereldan, then it would matter little in his eyes. Certainly he knew, without reading the letters, that Celene was using Cailan's own foolishness against him.

Cauthrien and Anora simply don't know the Orlesians the way he does....I doubt anyone who was born after the occupation ended could understand.

If I had been in Loghain's place....well let's just say Cailan would have tragically disappeared one night in camp. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juin 2010 - 05:10 .