115 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

His reaction is too strong to be a lie. Take him there and you'll see.

[Astranagant]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Alister fans will forever hate Loghain, even though Alister is so blinded by revenge he flees his home, like a child and abandons it to the Blight. While Loghain goes and does what is right in the end. So in short Alister loses a lot of respect for me.

And Loghain is the better for leaving his supposed best friend's only legitimate son and heir to the founding royal line of Ferelden to die because he's so obsessed with Orlais that he'd let the Blight consume all of Ferelden rather than accept Orlesian support?

When sparing him I've found myself softening the line on Loghain, but when I took him to Return to Ostagar I got a great reminder on why I didn't like him in the first place. It's pretty clear from what he says there that he probably would have killed Cailan himself if the Darkspawn hadn't beaten him to it.

Modifié par Astranagant, 05 juin 2010 - 04:18 .

[Xandurpein]

Astranagant wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Alister fans will forever hate Loghain, even though Alister is so blinded by revenge he flees his home, like a child and abandons it to the Blight. While Loghain goes and does what is right in the end. So in short Alister loses a lot of respect for me.

And Loghain is the better for leaving his supposed best friend's only legitimate son and heir to the founding royal line of Ferelden to die because he's so obsessed with Orlais that he'd let the Blight consume all of Ferelden rather than accept Orlesian support?

When sparing him I've found myself softening the line on Loghain, but when I took him to Return to Ostagar I got a great reminder on why I didn't like him in the first place. It's pretty clear from what he says there that he probably would have killed Cailan himself if the Darkspawn hadn't beaten him to it.

You really have to read "The Stolen Throne" to appreciate what happens in the game. The relationship between Loghain and Maric is quite complicated. Maric had a tendency to forget he was king and go off on little personal  quests, leaving Loghain to pick up the pieces and win the war. That is also how Loghain won the Battle of River Dane.

Maric made Loghain swear an oath that he would never put any man above the well being of Ferelden. I assume that Maric by this meant that he wanted Loghain not to put his loyalty to him before the well being of Ferelden, but it equally applies to Cailan. I think that in Loghain's mind he is honoring his oath to Maric by stopping Cailan.

To me Maric made a big mistake in relying soo much on Loghain. Loghain simply isn't a politician, unlike his daughter, and making him swear an oath that would force him to rely on his own political understanding to decide if he should follow the King or not, was not Maric's brightest move.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 05 juin 2010 - 08:33 .

[Cenwyn]

Hanz54321 wrote...

YeeeeeeeeAAARRRRRGGGHhhhhhhh!

I know new forum members join every week, and this is why this topic has been BEATEN TO DEATH in this and several hundred threads like it.

So I thought I'd humorously scream and jump to my death.

Carry on.

You got a laugh out of me!

[Giggles_Manically]

Astranagant wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Alister fans will forever hate Loghain, even though Alister is so blinded by revenge he flees his home, like a child and abandons it to the Blight. While Loghain goes and does what is right in the end. So in short Alister loses a lot of respect for me.

And Loghain is the better for leaving his supposed best friend's only legitimate son and heir to the founding royal line of Ferelden to die because he's so obsessed with Orlais that he'd let the Blight consume all of Ferelden rather than accept Orlesian support?

When sparing him I've found myself softening the line on Loghain, but when I took him to Return to Ostagar I got a great reminder on why I didn't like him in the first place. It's pretty clear from what he says there that he probably would have killed Cailan himself if the Darkspawn hadn't beaten him to it.

I am not saying that Loghain is any better, but Alistair response is just plain childish. When he dosent get his way he abandons Ferelden to the Blight, and flees. WHile Yes Loghain did do terrible things, Alistair did a very stupid thing in my last playthrough.

[Asdara]

What I'm always curious about with this is what it is an even an option in the first place.



1) Riordan tells you that the archdemon blood supply is missing so you can't do Joinings when you rescue him from jail



Ok, assuming that Loghain had taken it and kept it in tact, it isn't as though he produces it at any time to give to Riordan for him to suddenly suggest a Joining. What is it? The missing cutscene?!



Furthermore - if we have the material, why aren't all my companions passing around the oversized cup before I recruit a traitor to the crown?



That's why I don't "spare" Loghain - because even having the option doesn't make any sense in the game as far as I can tell.

[gruedragon]

My first playthru, I spared Loghain. I felt like I didn't have any choice. In preparing for the Landsmeet, I thought I'd be able to chat up each noble in their estate in Denerim, and possibly do a quest to get their support. I didn't realize that they'd all be at The Gnawed Noble Tavern.



So I had virtually no support at the Landsmeet, and I felt that the best option to get and keep Ferelden's support against the Blight was to spare Loghain.



Subsequent playthrus, I haven't spared him.



While Loghain isn't directly responsible for Callain's death, he did leave his king to die at Ostagar, and made an immediately play for the throne upon returning to Denerim. That's treason in my book.



In fact, I'm convinced that Loghain, with Howe's help, conducted a coup against Callain in an effort to gain the throne. Letting the darkspawn kill Callain. Poisoning Arl Eamon. Howe massacring the Couslands. Hiring the Crows to kill the GW and Alistair.



Loghain let the king die and moved to eliminate the other nobles (and royal bastards) who had a claim to the throne, all to set himself up as king.



The bastard is guilty of high treason and deserves to die.



(I have yet to read The Stolen Throne, and admit my opinion of Loghain may change when I finally do read it.)

[Finiffa]

gruedragon wrote...
(I have yet to read The Stolen Throne, and admit my opinion of Loghain may change when I finally do read it.)

My opinion didn't change .

[Giggles_Manically]

While Loghain isn't directly responsible for Callain's death, he did leave his king to die at Ostagar, and made an immediately play for the throne upon returning to Denerim. That's treason in my book.



-Well yes it looks like that Loghain only did it if asked because he thought he had to do it to protect Ferelden not to gain the throne. Also in the Stolen throne Maric makes Logain swear to do whatever it takes to secure Ferelden, sadly the events in DA:O is the result.



In fact, I'm convinced that Loghain, with Howe's help, conducted a coup against Callain in an effort to gain the throne. Letting the darkspawn kill Callain. Poisoning Arl Eamon. Howe massacring the Couslands. Hiring the Crows to kill the GW and Alistair.



-Once again Loghain is not in it for the throne, totally OOC for him, David Gaider confirmed that Loghain did not have a hand in killing the Couslands. the poison was only supposed to make Eamon sick, not kill him, as told by D. Gaider, and Howe is the one if you watch the cutscene who hired the Crows. Loghain only allowed for the Crows =, he did not plan that out.



Loghain let the king die and moved to eliminate the other nobles (and royal bastards) who had a claim to the throne, all to set himself up as king.The bastard is guilty of high treason and deserves to die.

-Loghain let an blonde bimbo prancing about as the king die, and saved as much of his army as possible Ostagar was lost and he knew (told by Gaider again). To close Loghain was never in it for the Crown, if you talk to him he tells you this. He wanted Anora to still rule and save Ferelden. He sees the light in the end, trust me. Allowing him to redeem himself is the best ending.

[Nero280]

Very interesting thread. It's a pity Loghain didn't know about Cailan and Celene BEFORE Ostagar. Cailan's involvement with Celene would have given Loghain some justification for betraying him. I always let Alister kill Loghain, but I might spare him this time.

[jpdipity]

@gruedragon: Giggles_Manically is correct about Gaider stating that Howe killed the Couslands on his own. He did further state that Loghain was already "in bed" with Howe and "he is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad."



I've read the Stolen Throne and it actually caused me to believe that Loghain cannot be trusted - he is a very dangerous man. He is definately not the patriot that I thought before reading the book (I read both books after 1 playthrough of the game). I liked his character in the book, but in the game he is an adversary not a friend.



@Giggles_Manically - Gaider did not state that the battle was lost. Where did you see that?



Per Gaider "In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself."

[Addai]

Ok, assuming that Loghain had taken it and kept it in tact, it isn't as though he produces it at any time to give to Riordan for him to suddenly suggest a Joining. What is it? The missing cutscene?!

 .

(husband posting)

Its one of those plot holes that they forgot to fix.  


My personal explanation/ hand wave -  Riodan found a Warden "Emergency Conscription Starter Kit" hidden inside the Denerim Warden Cache after you last talked to him.  

Modifié par Addai67, 08 juin 2010 - 03:37 .

[Addai]

Finiffa wrote...

gruedragon wrote...
(I have yet to read The Stolen Throne, and admit my opinion of Loghain may change when I finally do read it.)

My opinion didn't change .

(Husband posting)

I gained a little more sympathy for Loghain by reading it.  The biggest impact it had on me was in down grading the importance of the Therin blood line in relationship to Arl Eamon's claims in the game.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 juin 2010 - 03:39 .

[old book]

Logain always thinks he's doing the right thing. That doesn't excuse him from responsibility for the choices he makes, and it doesn't make his choices right; it just means what it says. He thinks he's doing his duty, and doing what's best.



I read The Stolen Throne and The Calling before I played DA:O, and I liked Loghain as a character more than Maric (and Rowan and Fiona far more than anyone else in the books, with Katriel just ahead of Loghain). That said, the Loghain in the book made some calls based on what he thought was "best" that caused great pain to the woman he loved, and to his only real friend. I don't think they were the right calls, but he did, and I think David Gaider did as well (which doesn't make them right, of course, but makes them The Will of the Author).



I've played characters that killed him and characters that spared him; it's all down to how you want to look at it. You can make a case your character would believe that he was wrong and deserves nothing but death, that he was wrong but deserves a chance to redeem himself, or that he was absolutely right about everything and only made a minor error in thinking that this wasn't a real blight and that even if it was the Circle could handle it.



Personally I think Loghain made a series of profoundly bad choices in good faith, and refused to admit he was wrong even to himself. David Gaider has said that Loghain realized it really was a Blight about halfway through the game.



His choice to sell the Elves into slavery is the one that crosses the line for me. Deciding to risk soldiers in battle is part of war, and every soldier knows this. Enslaving civilians and selling them for quick cash? No. Just no. There is such a thing as making "hard choices", but there are morally unjustifiable choices.



Thinking you're in the right does not equal being in the right.