161 réponses à ce sujet

[MPaBkaTa123]

LPPrince wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Actually I like the new system. That essentially enables to play five different playthroughs:

One Full Renegade (always choosing the bottom right answer/Intimidation and Renegade Action)

One Full Paragon (always choosing the top right answer/Charming and Paragon Action)

One indifferent playthrough (always choosing the middle answer and never use Intimidation/Charming or the respective actions)

One Mixed Renegade (Choosing between bottom right and middle answer aswell as taking the renegade actions only and ignore Intimidation/Charming)

One Mixed Paragon (Choosing between top right and middle answer aswell as taking the paragon actions only and ignore Intimidation/Charming)

That way you are going to enjoy to various different approaches and results, aswell as having several different playthroughs to choose from in both Mass Effect 2 and 3 to get the maximum out of the games.

Except people like me who want their characters to be Paragon AND Renegade(with varying amounts of the two) are screwed.

So ME1's system is better, since you can choose everything from your list AND mine.

Sorry for the double post, but that is untrue unless as I mentioned above you replay the game with the same character. Trying to be both in the first game will not end up with you having enough points to charm/intimidate Saren ( The Hardest Check) and possibly a few others in the beggining. Whereas in ME2 if you do the same you will fail at Samara's quest (Hardest Check) and again a few others. The systems are the same unless counting repeated playthroughs, though the ME2 one was more flawed in that it ruined the whole "be both with mixed success" thing by subtracting from your scores depending on your other one.

[KitsuneRommel]

DK_DOOM wrote...

They should let you use Charm or Intimidate options regardless of how many points you have and just give more for the respective alignment for using them.

This.

ME2 forced you to stick to one side. That sucked.

How exactly? You mean unless you had enough paragon/renegade you couldn't do certain things? How was that different from ME1. Without 10 Intimidate or 12 Charm you couldn't persuade the Exogeni rep. Without 80%(?) paragon or renegade points you wouldn't get additional quests, etc.

[Collider]

Neofelis, making the system based upon forcing the player to replay the game is a horrible idea. First of all, they are going to need to replay the game regardless to get different outcomes. I've heard of people who had 12 different Shepards in ME1. Mass Effect did not need more replay value. But they still gave us a crappy system in which I cannot roleplay my Shepard as I see fit. I must be Space Paladin or Antisocial Jerk. The reason I played Mass Effect in the first place is because I wanted to get away from games that forced you into one of two morality types like this.

[Massadonious1]

Forces? More like encourages. The fact that people were ADD with their characters doesn't mean I'll find some magical reason to play again, especially if I could do or say everything I wanted in my first playthrough.

[LPPrince]

And one main reason I liked ME's system better is because I have the option to go Paragon or Renegade at any time. Any and every choice is available, so I can role play my character perfectly.



In ME2, that's all out the window. Now I run into times where I want to say one thing but am forced to choose the other.

[Spartas Husky]

As already said before, bring back the charm intimidate system or something of the sort. So that after multiple playthroughs, we can have both maxed out, and play the game according to what we personally would do, not to what the game is allowing us.



This game is about mostly choice right? so?

[LPPrince]

Spartas Husky wrote...

As already said before, bring back the charm intimidate system or something of the sort. So that after multiple playthroughs, we can have both maxed out, and play the game according to what we personally would do, not to what the game is allowing us.

This game is about mostly choice right? so?

I agree. It sucks that we have to start from scratch every time.

And that importing an ME2 character gets rid of the bonus from the ME1 import.

[KitsuneRommel]

LPPrince wrote...

And one main reason I liked ME's system better is because I have the option to go Paragon or Renegade at any time. Any and every choice is available, so I can role play my character perfectly.

The biggest problem with it was that lot of the times even if the choices were

• I'll have to honorably disagree, sir.
• No.
• THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

Shepard would still say the same thing and in no way express the feeling conveyed in the choice. Did you even get Paragon/Renegade points from those unless you got that +2 PARAGON/RENEGADE after the conversation?

And no, you won't have every choice available unless you maximize your Charm and Initimidate and even then you might not get to select one of them.

[Collider]

You guys do a have a point - ME1's system meant that the paragon and renegade system requirements were not scaled. I forgot that part.



But something is wrong when people have full paragon yet are unable to use charm. And that is what some people have experienced in ME2. ME's system wasn't perfect, but I never had a situation like that with it.



Both are flawed - and I would like a system in which I can roleplay my Shepard without him randomly being unable to use charm because he doesn't have enough paragon points or or unable to use intimidate because he doesn't have enough renegade points. Just make a persuasion skill and let us roleplay our Shepards to our hearts content. The roleplay aspect is the reason why many of us play Bioware games in the first place.

[LorDC]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Really? Huh. I just imported a level 60 Shep from ME1, made both renegade and paragon decisions in ME2, and was able to pass all of the checks for the arguments etc.

When you import character from ME1 you got up to 190 Paragon/Renegade points transfered. This just makes persuation checks irrelevant.

I think Bioware should choose one of following:
1) Make all persuation unneccesary. Persuation fail makes your game harder or incurs some money/resource penalty. That's the bad way. It's almost the same as if you remove the whole system.
2) Make system assymetric. Now both charm and intimidate always appear together(all exceptions like Thane or Zaeed loyalty are not really exceptions because you can choose your path before actual check). Make it so that you can not possibly charm or intimidate everyone in game. In some places you can only charm, in other only intimidate. And if you don't play pure Paragon/Renegade you can persuade someone or charm someone but not everyone.

[KitsuneRommel]

Collider wrote...

But something is wrong when people have full paragon yet are unable to use charm. And that is what some people have experienced in ME2. ME's system wasn't perfect, but I never had a situation like that with it.

That sounds like a bug though.

[Collider]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Collider wrote...

But something is wrong when people have full paragon yet are unable to use charm. And that is what some people have experienced in ME2. ME's system wasn't perfect, but I never had a situation like that with it.

That sounds like a bug though.

Not a bug. This is what a developer had to say:

To simplify: The game keeps track of
all of your missed opportunities in getting Paragon or Renegade in
every single area. If you start falling behind, you will most likely
never catch up. You HAVE to continuously act Paragon OR Renegade. This
becomes much easier if you start out with a Paragon/Renegade import
bonus from ME1, specialize in your class skill that gives +100%
Paragon/Renegade instead of +70%, or wear Negotiation bonus armor (only
in missions where you're not in casual attire).

[KitsuneRommel]

Collider wrote...

Not a bug. This is what a developer had to say:

Oh you meant a maximum he could have at that point. Not THE maximum. Yeah you could say you are screwed if you do things in the wrong order or if you don't spend points on your class skill.

Edit: My first Paragon Vanguard in ME1 couldn't have 12 in Charm at that time in Feros so I failed to save the colony. I just hope they really rethink how Paragon/Renegade works for ME3.

Modifié par KitsuneRommel, 26 mai 2010 - 09:00 .

[LPPrince]

Like I said, make persuasion a power(hell, tack it on to the class specific skill) so that both paragon and renegade are taken care of, and I can choose what I want, when I want.

[Collider]

LPPrince wrote...

Like I said, make persuasion a power(hell, tack it on to the class specific skill) so that both paragon and renegade are taken care of, and I can choose what I want, when I want.

Thank you. These are my thoughts exactly.

[LPPrince]

Collider wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Like I said, make persuasion a power(hell, tack it on to the class specific skill) so that both paragon and renegade are taken care of, and I can choose what I want, when I want.

Thank you. These are my thoughts exactly.

You are welcome. You're not the only one.

[Collider]

Neofelis, people do not have paragon and renegade meters in real life. I can be just as likely to be nice to my friends that I am to be ruthless to someone who wronged me.

[Dethateer]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

No one would be 90% Saint and then turn into being a jerk at a few decisions. That is what consistency is about. People don't do an one-eighty if they feel like it. Human psyche doesn't work that way.

Jesus would like a word with you.

Yeah, right. Those who roleplay neutral characters don't do things as they would irl.

[LPPrince]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Collider wrote...

Neofelis, people do not have paragon and renegade meters in real life. I can be just as likely to be nice to my friends that I am to be ruthless to someone who wronged me.

Yes, but you won't shove a gun into his face if you've been a generally friendly person before. Just take the bottom right option then. In most cases this is just a not so much jerky answer than if you went full renegade.

I completely agree that the system is not perfect and sometimes I really wished the choices would reflect the actual following speech more accurately or some more choices, but that is doomed to stay a mere dream. After all it is a programmed game and will never achieve the variability the real life offers. But as for now, the system resembles common human psyche more than any other system (though I really wished the Renegade choices were less jerky and more mean badass ...).

Personal opinion of course.

THAT'S EXACTLY HOW MY SHEPARD IS.

He got fed up with all the BS and is not afraid to get rough with those he has problems with.

But he's still the same Paragon he was in ME. He's a good guy with a dark side.

The way you want it, he would never get anything done.

Neutral choices pail in comparison to paragon and renegade options, and he should be able to choose both since he's equally as capable to save someone's life as to rip that same person apart.

[Ecael]

Collider wrote...

It actually helped in ME2 because there were several mission options given to you to choose from at any one time, and the player shouldn't be penalized for doing them in the wrong order.

Uh, they were.

They were penalized for not always selecting the Paragon/Renegade option.

If the system didn't scale like it did, people would have to plan out which missions to do first and last in order to pass all the persuasion checks.

[Collider]

Ecael wrote...

Collider wrote...

It actually helped in ME2 because there were several mission options given to you to choose from at any one time, and the player shouldn't be penalized for doing them in the wrong order.

Uh, they were.

They were penalized for not always selecting the Paragon/Renegade option.

If the system didn't scale like it did, people would have to plan out which missions to do first and last in order to pass all the persuasion checks.

That's the same thing some people have to do with ME2. It's not incredibly different. The fact that if you wait too long, you can't use charm or intimidate even with 100% paragon/renegade, says as much. This is wrong.

[Ecael]

Collider wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Collider wrote...

It actually helped in ME2 because there were several mission options given to you to choose from at any one time, and the player shouldn't be penalized for doing them in the wrong order.

Uh, they were.

They were penalized for not always selecting the Paragon/Renegade option.

If the system didn't scale like it did, people would have to plan out which missions to do first and last in order to pass all the persuasion checks.

That's the same thing some people have to do with ME2. It's not incredibly different. The fact that if you wait too long, you can't use charm or intimidate even with 100% paragon/renegade, says as much. This is wrong.

If that's occurring at 100% Paragon/Renegade, that sounds more like a glitch to me. It would be similar to not passing a check with 12/12 Charm/Intimidate or 4/4 Persuade skill.

Which mission exactly is doing this?