161 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
I still do not understand the whole problem. If people want to play fiftyfifty renegade/paragon they actually want to play an indifferent person.

That is incorrect. If I play 50% of each, I am not indifferent, I care about situation X another way than I can about situation Y. For instance, I always intimidate merchants to give me discounts, but I would never treat my squadmates the same way.

No one would be 90% Saint and then turn into being a jerk at a few decisions. That is what consistency is about. People don't do an one-eighty if they feel like it. Human psyche doesn't work that way.

Yes, it does. This is *exactly* how the human mind works. People act differently to different people. Actually, the 100% saint is extremely rare, as is the 100% jerk.

[Collider]

I've heard of at least a few people who have had problems with the loyalty fights. They had 100% paragon or renegade legitimately but was not able to use them.



Either way, the ME2 system is flawed. It forces me to play as a straight-up paragon or renegade instead of the paragade I prefer. I had full persuasion (class skill) at the time of the Miranda and Jack fight but was not able to use charm and intimidate. This is wrong.



Paragon and renegade should not have anything to do with the availability of charm and intimidate in the first place. It makes little sense. Just make it a persuasion skill. Scale it so early in the game 1 or 2 persuasion points may do the job, and that increases as time goes on. Don't make it based upon some arbitrary, imaginary meter.

[Ieldra]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Collider wrote...

Neofelis, people do not have paragon and renegade meters in real life. I can be just as likely to be nice to my friends that I am to be ruthless to someone who wronged me.

Yes, but you won't shove a gun into his face if you've been a generally friendly person before. Just take the bottom right option then. In most cases this is just a not so much jerky answer than if you went full renegade.

Actually, if someone threatened someone I care for, yes, I would shove a gun in his face, even though I'm a generally friendly guy.

[Foolsfolly]

LPPrince wrote...

Like I said, make persuasion a power(hell, tack it on to the class specific skill) so that both paragon and renegade are taken care of, and I can choose what I want, when I want.

You can. Whenever you want.

You can choose to shoot Grunt when he wakes up instead of Charm or Intimidate him.

What you all fail to realize is that the Charm and Intimidate isn't the only way you can answer things. And the new system is actually funner and god forbid easier! It also has a great bit of brilliance to it when you realize that these are built upon your past actions....which means your charm and intimidate works because of your reputation.

You want to be an 'in the middle' kind of person then you're not going to have a strong reputation either way, this doesn't make you a rogue gun or loose cannon it makes you a flip-flop or wishy-washy. If you want to just do Renegade or Paragon choices at will the new Interupt system seems built with you in mind.

Really, guys. You're complaining that a new and easier system is not as tiresome as the old one that had you play 3 complete playthroughs before you got to do what you wanted. What you wanted was never the point of either system.

Games have rules and restirctions. They only have the illusion of freedom. You roleplay within the bounds of the game. In this manner the game's rules act like a Dungon Master focusing your roleplaying and telling you that you cannot be a god capable of all things.

....there's a lot of Fan Dumb on this site. Mass Effect is a brilliant game series. You're not entitled to demand things from Bioware and many arguements can be summed up with 'They changed it now it sucks.'

[Ecael]

Collider wrote...

I've heard of at least a few people who have had problems with the loyalty fights. They had 100% paragon or renegade legitimately but was not able to use them.

Either way, the ME2 system is flawed. It forces me to play as a straight-up paragon or renegade instead of the paragade I prefer. I had full persuasion (class skill) at the time of the Miranda and Jack fight but was not able to use charm and intimidate. This is wrong.

Paragon and renegade should not have anything to do with the availability of charm and intimidate in the first place. It makes little sense. Just make it a persuasion skill. Scale it so early in the game 1 or 2 persuasion points may do the job, and that increases as time goes on. Don't make it based upon some arbitrary, imaginary meter.

Any videos or pictures of this actually happening?

Remember, the loyalty fights and the Samara/Morinth fight have Shepard in their casual appearance, so the negotiation bonus from armor is not added to the persuasion check - even if the squad screen says otherwise.

[Ieldra]

Ecael wrote...
Remember, the loyalty fights and the Samara/Morinth fight have Shepard in their casual appearance, so the negotiation bonus from armor is not added to the persuasion check - even if the squad screen says otherwise.

[Joker mode]
Sh*t! sh*t! sh*t!
[/Joker mode]
So much for my planned replay of the Miranda/Jack conflict....

[Collider]

Ecael wrote...
Any videos or pictures of this actually happening?

No, but I think the testimony of several people would be enough. I don't think they thought of taking screenshots anyway.

Remember, the loyalty fights and the Samara/Morinth fight have Shepard in their casual appearance, so the negotiation bonus from armor is not added to the persuasion check - even if the squad screen says otherwise.

Are you sure that armor adds to the paragon and renegade score?

If they don't, not much of an ecuse. Obviously the developers should know that Shepard isn't going to be in armor, and thus scale the requirements easier.

[Ecael]

Collider wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Any videos or pictures of this actually happening?

No, but I think the testimony of several people would be enough. I don't think they thought of taking screenshots anyway.

Remember, the loyalty fights and the Samara/Morinth fight have Shepard in their casual appearance, so the negotiation bonus from armor is not added to the persuasion check - even if the squad screen says otherwise.

Are you sure that armor adds to the paragon and renegade score?

If they don't, not much of an ecuse. Obviously the developers should know that Shepard isn't going to be in armor, and thus scale the requirements easier.

Death Mask - Ratch's Wares - 10% Paragon/Renegade bonus
Inferno Armor - Pre-order Bonus - 10% Paragon/Renegade bonus

You're still relying on hearsay rather than actual playtesting, Collider. If people provided screenshots or videos, then the complaining might be justified.

Some people say that Insanity difficulty is impossible for them. That doesn't mean Insanity is glitched.

[Lumikki]

Actually OP is wrong.

In ME1 we had points to put persuades and intimidates. How ever, that doesn't really give us much better choises,
because how many point you can put is still based paragon and renegade actions, choises in dialogs. Meaning only real choise here is, do you want to put points there or not. What is same as do you want extra dialog option or not. Now, what it means?

It means that those options only offer one thing, not wanting more dialog options to solve situation and putting points to somewhere else. Is that really good thing as choise? It's like saying I don't care what the choises are, just give me my gun.

Now as paragon and renegade, when you have more dialog option, you don't really need both of them just one. Example if You are paragon, then you need persuade option. If you are renegade you need intimidate option. So, it's actually paragon and renegade what defines the options. Also paragon and renegade is define by player dialog options, so the choise is allready there.

Now the idea about  allowing to been more neutral. What seem resonable as getting sometimes neutral special cinema dialog option.

Meaning if you have equal amount of paragon and renegade, should it open extra neutral dialog cimema option? Short of if paragon or renegade doesn't open option, then they sum of them could sometimes do it? How ever, that leaves one more question, why we then need paragon and renegade extra dialog options at all, if you can allways use neutral dialog option to solve situation. Maybe it's just allow players to play sertain role? Point of those extra option was that if you are too middle you don't neccassary get any extra option. How ever, should we?

So, in the end, I think what they did in ME2 is actually right. It's simple and allows players to them self deside do they want to be neutral, paragon or renegade. I don't think we actualy need the points in persuades and intimidates as paradon/renegade is doing it automaticly based our own actions and choises. Short of keeping track of our choises. Of course that requires that we know what our charcater is actualy trying to say?

Those paragon and renegade special dialog option are blocked there because character can't do successful action with his/her current fame. So, it's like player wanting to do successful persuade action, but you character can't persuade npc in this situation. So, the option is blocked, because it would fail. So, it's there more like don't waste players time to do dialog with npcs, if it doesn't have any affect. It would actually spoil the games atmosphere to see succesful persuade/intimidate dialog cinema without the actual result.

So, if they would open those action to players, then we all would do alot of those extra dialog actions for nothing. Meaning, it doesn't do anything, like alot of cienema talking and nothing happen. Now that they are blocked, we know when we have special possibility to affect npcs. Is it really better to allow players do dialog choises what does nothing or allow them to do dialog choises only when it actually does something?

Player does have those three normal option to go forward in dialogs, paragon (persuade), neutral (reason) and renegade (intimidate), see if they works to npc. Just those special dialog option open when character see opportunity and it does something..

So what OP asked here is that player can do successful renegade dialog special action, even when players characters doesn't have enough renegade image for it.  That's not good roleplaying is it?

Game did not tell what to choose from dialog option, it was players own choises what affected what kind of  character player has. What is how player should roleplayed they character, so act like that too. So, basicly what OP is askign is allow me to have regenade and paragon choise all the time, even if my charcater doesn't have enough paragon or renegade to handle situation. While ME2 made it that players own actions on dialogs defines the character fame.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 mai 2010 - 12:24 .

[Collider]

Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

[Raphael diSanto]

Foolsfolly wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Like I said, make persuasion a power(hell, tack it on to the class specific skill) so that both paragon and renegade are taken care of, and I can choose what I want, when I want.

You can. Whenever you want.

You can choose to shoot Grunt when he wakes up instead of Charm or Intimidate him.

What you all fail to realize is that the Charm and Intimidate isn't the only way you can answer things. And the new system is actually funner and god forbid easier! It also has a great bit of brilliance to it when you realize that these are built upon your past actions....which means your charm and intimidate works because of your reputation.

You want to be an 'in the middle' kind of person then you're not going to have a strong reputation either way, this doesn't make you a rogue gun or loose cannon it makes you a flip-flop or wishy-washy. If you want to just do Renegade or Paragon choices at will the new Interupt system seems built with you in mind.

Really, guys. You're complaining that a new and easier system is not as tiresome as the old one that had you play 3 complete playthroughs before you got to do what you wanted. What you wanted was never the point of either system.

Games have rules and restirctions. They only have the illusion of freedom. You roleplay within the bounds of the game. In this manner the game's rules act like a Dungon Master focusing your roleplaying and telling you that you cannot be a god capable of all things.

....there's a lot of Fan Dumb on this site. Mass Effect is a brilliant game series. You're not entitled to demand things from Bioware and many arguements can be summed up with 'They changed it now it sucks.'

While I agree with the 2nd half of your statement here, the 1st part is flawed.

The problem, here, is that people equate blue/red dialogue options as "success". A better system would be to provide us with a set of dialogue options to choose from and not have any of them be the 'success' or 'failure' options, but let the success or failure be dependent upon the P/R values.

(Site note: Really guys, there is no difference between ME1 and ME2, except that in ME1 you had to spend points in it and the number of points you could spend was limited by your P/R score.)

Because there's actually -two- issues here, and people are getting them mixed up.

Issue 1: Can your Shepard solve a incident using his (or her) diplomatic skills alone? I can understand the point of view of those who say they Shepard shouldn't be able to do all things all the time. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can understand it.

Issue 2: Why can't my Shepard say the lines I want him or her to say? That's a different issue, and one I completely agree with.

I'm just glad I play on PC and not xbox.

[Foolsfolly]

Lumikki wrote...

Actually OP is wrong.

In ME1 we had points to put persuades and intimidates. How ever, that doesn't really give us much better choises,
because how many point you can put is still based paragon and renegade actions, choises in dialogs. Meaning only real choise here is, do you want to put points there or not. What is same as do you want extra dialog option or not. Now, what it means?

It means that those options only offer one thing, not wanting more dialog options to solve situation and putting points to somewhere else. Is that really good thing as choise? It's like saying I don't care what the choises are, just give me my gun.

Now as paragon and renegade, when you have more dialog option, you don't really need both of them just one. Example if You are paragon, then you need persuade option. If you are renegade you need intimidate option. So, it's actually paragon and renegade what defines the options. Also paragon and renegade is define by player dialog options, so the choise is allready there.

Now the idea about  allowing to been more neutral. What seem resonable as getting sometimes neutral special cinema dialog option.

Meaning if you have equal amount of paragon and renegade, should it open extra neutral dialog cimema option? Short of if paragon or renegade doesn't open option, then they sum of them could sometimes do it? How ever, that leaves one more question, why we then need paragon and renegade extra dialog options at all, if you can allways use neutral dialog option to solve situation. Maybe it's just allow players to play sertain role? Point of those extra option was that if you are too middle you don't neccassary get any extra option. How ever, should we?

So, in the end, I think what they did in ME2 is actually right. It's simple and allows players to them self deside do they want to be neutral, paragon or renegade. I don't think we actualy need the points in persuades and intimidates as paradon/renegade is doing it automaticly based our own actions and choises. Short of keeping track of our choises. Of course that requires that we know what our charcater is actualy trying to say?

Those paragon and renegade special dialog option are blocked there because character can't do successful action with his/her current fame. So, it's like player wanting to do successful persuade action, but you character can't persuade npc in this situation. So, the option is blocked, because it would fail. So, it's there more like don't waste players time to do dialog with npcs, if it doesn't have any affect. It would actually spoil the games atmosphere to see succesful persuade/intimidate dialog cinema without the actual result.

So, if they would open those action to players, then we all would do alot of those extra dialog actions for nothing. Meaning, it doesn't do anything, like alot of cienema talking and nothing happen. Now that they are blocked, we know when we have special possibility to affect npcs. Is it really better to allow players do dialog choises what does nothing or allow them to do dialog choises only when it actually does something?

Player does have those three normal option to go forward in dialogs, paragon (persuade), neutral (reason) and renegade (intimidate), see if they works to npc. Just those special dialog option open when character see opportunity and it does something..

So what OP asked here is that player can do successful renegade dialog special action, even when players characters doesn't have enough renegade image for it.  That's not good roleplaying is it?

Game did not tell what to choose from dialog option, it was players own choises what affected what kind of  character player has. What is how player should roleplayed they character, so act like that too. So, basicly what OP is askign is allow me to have regenade and paragon choise all the time, even if my charcater doesn't have enough paragon or renegade to handle situation. While ME2 made it that players own actions on dialogs defines the character fame.

Quoted for Truth.

[Sidney]

Collider wrote...

Either way, the ME2 system is flawed. It forces me to play as a straight-up paragon or renegade instead of the paragade I prefer. I had full persuasion (class skill) at the time of the Miranda and Jack fight but was not able to use charm and intimidate. This is wrong.

Paragon and renegade should not have anything to do with the availability of charm and intimidate in the first place. It makes little sense. Just make it a persuasion skill. Scale it so early in the game 1 or 2 persuasion points may do the job, and that increases as time goes on. Don't make it based upon some arbitrary, imaginary meter.

I'm not wholy comfortable with the paragon and renegade system because, like the light side/dark side thing in KoTOR, it does encourage min/maxing.   There are a lot more benefits at the margins than in the middle.

I guess maybe the "Renegade" stuff matters, as an example, because your threats have to be backed up by your history that says you'll act on your threats and you will do bad things. It feels like they're trying to keep that BG2 mechanism where people react differently to you based on your past except they handle it y your available reactions not by their mandatory reactions and that is a better step.

[Ecael]

Collider wrote...

Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Technically speaking, the way they're doing it now as well as the way they did it before (points in Charm and Intimidate) both restrict roleplaying. Either way, you're forced to put points to pass checks or play through the game multiple times to get the points necessary to persuade.

In ME1, it's skill points from progression. In ME2, it's Paragon/Renegade points from dialogue.

Either way seems fairly flawed to me. However, if you're really not passing these checks with full persuasion while playing Paragade (which seems to be a fairly difficult feat to accomplish - I would appreciate if you took a screenshot of this), then it's either a glitch, or having too many points in one bar will start canceling out points in the other.

[Lumikki]

Collider wrote...

Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Jack v Miranda fight is one of most difficult to solve as paragon, easyer as renegade.

You really need full scale paragon to get this fight solved. When I played first times ME2 I could not solve it at all. Mostly because I wasn't paragon enough to do it. Meaning I wasn't famous enough my diplomatic skill and I was doing it way too early.  How ever, last time I was able to do it, because I saved the Jack v Miranda confilct as last possible moment, just before doing IFF mission. I had done all other loyal missions allready, when I did Jacks. I got enough paragon that time to break the fight.

Also what you say here is not restricting roleplaying, it's restricting players wrongly roleplay they character agaist what they character are, defined by player it self. You as player want sertain outcome, but you character isn't ready for it, yet. You may not like it as player, but that is your characters reality. That is actualy good roleplaying, not to allow you do actions agaist your characters abilities.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 mai 2010 - 12:56 .

[Collider]

Ecael wrote...
Either way seems fairly flawed to me.

I agree.

However, if you're really not passing these checks with full persuasion while playing Paragade (which seems to be a fairly difficult feat to accomplish - I would appreciate if you took a screenshot of this), then it's either a glitch, or having too many points in one bar will start canceling out points in the other.

I play on the 360. But I have no reason to lie to you. I loaded up a save closest to the fight, so I am to give an approximation. The save is about 12 hours in.

2.5 Paragon segments filled in, 1.15 renegade segments filled in.

Either way, I shouldn't be disallowed to use charm and intimidate. They should just make charm and intimidate dependant on your persuade skill and nothing else.

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...
Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Just for curiosity's sake: when did you finish the loyalty mission where the Miranda/Jack conflict followed? And can it be that your Paragons score was only 99.5% instead of 100%?

[Foolsfolly]

Lumikki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Jack v Miranda fight is one of most difficult to solve as paragon, easyer as renegade.

You really need full scale paragon to get this fight solved. When I played first times ME2 I could not solve it at all. Mostly because I wasn't paragon enough to do it. Meaning I wasn't famous enough my diplomatic skill and I was doing it way too early.  How ever, last time I was able to do it, because I saved the Jack v Miranda confilct as last possible moment, just before doing IFF mission. I had done all other loyal missions allready, when I did Jacks. I got enough paragon that time to break the fight.

Also what you say here is not restricting roleplaying, it's restricting players wrongly roleplay they character agaist what they character are, defined by player it self. You as player want sertain outcome, but you character isn't ready for it, yet. You may not like it as player, but that is your characters reality. That is actualy good roleplaying, not to allow you do actions agaist your characters abilities.

That's a lie. I've never not cleared the Charm check for Miranda and Jack and I do their Loyalty missions whenever I want (usually pretty early because I love Squad Warp Ammo and Slam). And even if you can't make that check, I believe you can agree with Jack...then she leaves the room and there's an easier Charm check to get Miranda back to being loyal.

Same with Tali and Legion except you choose Tali and then she walks out and you Charm Legion back into Loyalty.

[Ecael]

Collider wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Either way seems fairly flawed to me.

I agree.

However, if you're really not passing these checks with full persuasion while playing Paragade (which seems to be a fairly difficult feat to accomplish - I would appreciate if you took a screenshot of this), then it's either a glitch, or having too many points in one bar will start canceling out points in the other.

I play on the 360. But I have no reason to lie to you. I loaded up a save closest to the fight, so I am to give an approximation. The save is about 12 hours in.

2.5 Paragon segments filled in, 1.15 renegade segments filled in.

Either way, I shouldn't be disallowed to use charm and intimidate. They should just make charm and intimidate dependent on your persuade skill and nothing else.

2.5 Paragon segments isn't full persuasion, though. And the 1.15 renegade segments suggests you missed a fairly good amount of Paragon opportunities.

People already max out their class passive skill very early, so making it only dependent on persuade would make the whole system trivial.

EDIT: Also, what Foolsfolly said - you have a second chance at persuading them after the argument. Have you tried that?

Modifié par Ecael, 26 mai 2010 - 01:09 .

[Raphael diSanto]

Collider wrote...

Either way, I shouldn't be disallowed to use charm and intimidate. They should just make charm and intimidate dependant on your persuade skill and nothing else.

Uh. Aren't those two statements somewhat contradictory?

Charm and intimidate -are- dependant upon your persuade skill. In ME2, your persuade skill is split into two called Paragon points and Renegade points and you get better at it by using it.

[Collider]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...
Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Just for curiosity's sake: when did you finish the loyalty mission where the Miranda/Jack conflict followed? And can it be that your Paragons score was only 99.5% instead of 100%?

I did Miranda and Jack's loyalty missions side by side. Probably ~11 hours in. Wasn't able to use charm or intimidate, had to side with one or the other which was out of character for my Shepard.

I personally did not have 100% paragon, but I've heard of at least a few people who had 100% paragon and was unable to resolve the fight with charm.

[Collider]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Collider wrote...

Either way, I shouldn't be disallowed to use charm and intimidate. They should just make charm and intimidate dependant on your persuade skill and nothing else.

Uh. Aren't those two statements somewhat contradictory?

Charm and intimidate -are- dependant upon your persuade skill. In ME2, your persuade skill is split into two called Paragon points and Renegade points and you get better at it by using it.

Persuade skill as in Dragon Age.

[Collider]

Ecael wrote...
People already max out their class passive skill very early, so making it only dependent on persuade would make the whole system trivial.

No it wouldn't. I don't need to put in points into the class skill, neither do they.

EDIT: Also, what Foolsfolly said - you have a second chance at persuading them after the argument. Have you tried that?

Yes, I was unable to use charm and intimidate with both of them.

[Ieldra]

Lumikki wrote...
You really need full scale paragon to get this fight solved.

No you don't. You get the Paragon option enabled easily if you do this early, for instance after Horizon, do Miranda's loyalty mission, then a few sidequests to get Jack's activated, then Jack's loyalty mission. It's like this with almost all persuasion situations. If you time things right, you can pass all important persuasion situations with an equal amount of Paragon/Renegade points and both Paragon and Renegade options enabled. It's a bit tricky, but it can be done.

That doesn't make the complaint less valid, though. Roleplaying should not be limited for those who don't bother to work the system.

[Ieldra]

Ecael wrote...
EDIT: Also, what Foolsfolly said - you have a second chance at persuading them after the argument. Have you tried that?

That will get their loyalty back, but the romance stays disabled....