161 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That doesn't make the complaint less valid, though. Roleplaying should not be limited for those who don't bother to work the system.

I agree, and thank you for saying this.

[Lumikki]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Jack v Miranda fight is one of most difficult to solve as paragon, easyer as renegade.

You really need full scale paragon to get this fight solved. When I played first times ME2 I could not solve it at all. Mostly because I wasn't paragon enough to do it. Meaning I wasn't famous enough my diplomatic skill and I was doing it way too early.  How ever, last time I was able to do it, because I saved the Jack v Miranda confilct as last possible moment, just before doing IFF mission. I had done all other loyal missions allready, when I did Jacks. I got enough paragon that time to break the fight.

Also what you say here is not restricting roleplaying, it's restricting players wrongly roleplay they character agaist what they character are, defined by player it self. You as player want sertain outcome, but you character isn't ready for it, yet. You may not like it as player, but that is your characters reality. That is actualy good roleplaying, not to allow you do actions agaist your characters abilities.

That's a lie. I've never not cleared the Charm check for Miranda and Jack and I do their Loyalty missions whenever I want (usually pretty early because I love Squad Warp Ammo and Slam). And even if you can't make that check, I believe you can agree with Jack...then she leaves the room and there's an easier Charm check to get Miranda back to being loyal.

Same with Tali and Legion except you choose Tali and then she walks out and you Charm Legion back into Loyalty.

What was a lie?

You mean that I did not say that you can solve the loyalty situations later too?

[Raphael diSanto]

Collider wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Collider wrote...

Either way, I shouldn't be disallowed to use charm and intimidate. They should just make charm and intimidate dependant on your persuade skill and nothing else.

Uh. Aren't those two statements somewhat contradictory?

Charm and intimidate -are- dependant upon your persuade skill. In ME2, your persuade skill is split into two called Paragon points and Renegade points and you get better at it by using it.

Persuade skill as in Dragon Age.

Paragon/Renegade is just persuade under a different name.

If you don't put points into that, doesn't that then disallow you from using charm and intimidate? Well, it means you don't always succeed anyway.. I like that about the ME system - Out of all the things it does wrong, I like the fact that if I would fail at the persuade it doesn't even let me both choosing it.

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 26 mai 2010 - 01:24 .

[Lumikki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
You really need full scale paragon to get this fight solved.

No you don't. You get the Paragon option enabled easily if you do this early, for instance after Horizon, do Miranda's loyalty mission, then a few sidequests to get Jack's activated, then Jack's loyalty mission. It's like this with almost all persuasion situations. If you time things right, you can pass all important persuasion situations with an equal amount of Paragon/Renegade points and both Paragon and Renegade options enabled. It's a bit tricky, but it can be done.

That doesn't make the complaint less valid, though. Roleplaying should not be limited for those who don't bother to work the system.

So, it's more like relative situation based how far you are with game and how much paragon you have collected that time. You could be right. It's still tricky like you self sayed.

PS: What you last comment means? Do You say that people who don't care what dialog choises they make, should have all paragon and renegade options to roleplay anyway? Even if they did not roleplay they dialog choises? That doesn't sound right.  Because you characters reality is based the dialog choises what you make. Or are you saying that player who makes both choise and is more like neutral should also have they own options?

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 mai 2010 - 01:39 .

[AntiChri5]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Collider wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Collider wrote...

Either way, I shouldn't be disallowed to use charm and intimidate. They should just make charm and intimidate dependant on your persuade skill and nothing else.

Uh. Aren't those two statements somewhat contradictory?

Charm and intimidate -are- dependant upon your persuade skill. In ME2, your persuade skill is split into two called Paragon points and Renegade points and you get better at it by using it.

Persuade skill as in Dragon Age.

Paragon/Renegade is just persuade under a different name.

If you don't put points into that, doesn't that then disallow you from using charm and intimidate? Well, it means you don't always succeed anyway.. I like that about the ME system - Out of all the things it does wrong, I like the fact that if I would fail at the persuade it doesn't even let me both choosing it.

And we end up making decisions based on where we want to put points, not what we think is right for the character.

[Nightwriter]

I guess morally diluted characters are less emphatic and persuasive.

Go figure. I know plenty of ethically ambiguous people who are great talkers.

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...

I guess morally diluted characters are less emphatic and persuasive.

Go figure. I know plenty of ethically ambiguous people who are great talkers.

Yea. God forbid we have morally complex characters. Apparently all Bioware wanted for ME2 was Goody-two-shoes or jerk face.

[AntiChri5]

Nightwriter wrote...

I guess morally diluted characters are less emphatic and persuasive.

Go figure. I know plenty of ethically ambiguous people who are great talkers.

Like......say......any politician.

[Ecael]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I guess morally diluted characters are less emphatic and persuasive.

Go figure. I know plenty of ethically ambiguous people who are great talkers.

Like......say......any politician.

Politicians know how to work the system and act Paragon/Renegade not because they believe it, but because that's what gets them the most votes.

As a result, politicians become good at persuasion as people believe what they say, even if the politician doesn't believe in what they're saying.

[MrNose]

Collider wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...
Ecael, I believe my "complaining" is still justifed. As I said, I don't want to be forced to be straight up paragon or straight up renegade. But I am. I was paragade with full persuasion and wasn't able to solve the Miranda v. Jack fight. I am basically saying that our paragon and renegade score should not factor in to my ability to use charm or intimidate. The way they're doing it right now restricts roleplaying.

Just for curiosity's sake: when did you finish the loyalty mission where the Miranda/Jack conflict followed? And can it be that your Paragons score was only 99.5% instead of 100%?

I did Miranda and Jack's loyalty missions side by side. Probably ~11 hours in. Wasn't able to use charm or intimidate, had to side with one or the other which was out of character for my Shepard.

I personally did not have 100% paragon, but I've heard of at least a few people who had 100% paragon and was unable to resolve the fight with charm.

Collider, I can personally attest to "labbing" both the Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack confrontations on the PC, and late in the game you do need 100% of your potential filled.  I approached Tali's with 99.6% renegade, and it wasn't enough, so I boosted my score to 100% and it was.  The opposite was true with Miranda's if you only have 99.6% paragon.  On PC, if you have 100%, you will pass every time.

While there are things about the system that bug me, as I definitely would like to be able to play less wholly Paragon or Renegade, the system is a little forgiving. 
A few things:
If you get the 100% paragon/renegade skill,
do things that award "free points" (talk to the shopkeepers on the citadel, for example),
import a game from ME1,

All of these things make it fairly easy to max out one bar or the other.

I agree that the system could use some tweaking.

I for one would like more neutral options without paragon/renegade options.  Maybe make them a different colour.  Yellow perhaps.

[AntiChri5]

Purple.



Right between red and blue.

[Collider]

Thank you for your input MrNose. I think having to have 100% paragon and renegade is beyond ridiculous. I think the best course of action is to make a persuasion skill, ala DA.

[snfonseka]

Collider wrote...

Some time ago, a developer revealed that players MUST act consistently ONLY paragon or ONLY renegade in order to use charm and intimidate. I played Mass Effect in the first place because I wanted to roleplay Shepard as how I want.

In the fight involving two human squad mates, I was unable to use either charm or intimidate, and therefore had to side with one or the other. For my Shepard, this was out of character. He had full persuasion skill, yet was unable to use charm and intimidate.

The system in ME1 was a million times better.

I don't want the game to tell me that I have to either be Paragon or I have to be Renegade.

I thought the main draw of the game was choice. I don't want to be forced to either be Space Paladin or Antisocial Jerk. Please fix the system Bioware in ME3, let us roleplay our Shepards. 

If you want more information, please visit this thread:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/2723147

The best way to do the choices in ME3 would be like Dragon Age: your ability to use charm or intimidate depends on a persuade skill and nothing else.

EDIT: The system in ME1 wasn't as good as I imagined. But something is wrong when you have full paragon yet are unable to use charm. Please make paragon and renegade not a requirement for charm or intimidate, Bioware. Just make a persuasion skill.

Completly agree with U... In ME2 they are forcing us to make the same type of decitions....

Modifié par snfonseka, 26 mai 2010 - 02:07 .

[snfonseka]

sonofalich wrote...

i had no idea ME 2 was an rpg.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

Thank you for your input MrNose. I think having to have 100% paragon and renegade is beyond ridiculous. I think the best course of action is to make a persuasion skill, ala DA.

Omg, but then how would the scars know to get better or worse?!!?!! The horror!!!

[Milady495a]

This is something that also bugged me!



And, for the record, I don't think we're discussing here neutrality either. One might choose to go Renegade most of the time, but wouldn't agree to some actions that would provide way too many renegade points (such as abandoning the workers to their deaths on Zaeed's loyalty mission). I just cannot let that happen, even if I'm a renegade, because my character wouldn't take such a harsh and careless route. There, it's not about a third "neutral" option, it's about choosing Paragon for a certain segment of the game and being punished in the way of not being able to reconcile Jack and Miranda... wuh? That seems unfair. For me, renegade-ing is not going bad and unforgiving but taking a direct approach to conflict - why should we stick to such decisions, when they're against your character? Because you want to have every crew member loyal? It's o.k. if Zaeed doesn't, but the penalty (-40 points on Renegade in favour of Paragon) makes very difficult to achieve 100% on this alignment. And this applies to some other choices as well (what about if you want to be nice to some squad members (paragon choices) but don't care about strangers and act harsh on them? Somebody said before that people are not as straightforward and categorized as either X or Y, so this seems the most likely probability to me).



Some of us wanted to play our character based on circumstances. Maybe there's somebody that is 100% Paragon, an angel on earth/space, or 100% Renegade/Bad, but for plausibility's sake, we'd like to actually choose without restraint. Moral options are hard enough to choose without having to apply numbers to scores, so you can pass every check (because they matter! it's such a pity that you have to turn down some squad members because you at some point decided to act according to your roleplaying sense).

[Ieldra]

Lumikki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
You really need full scale paragon to get this fight solved.

No you don't. You get the Paragon option enabled easily if you do this early, for instance after Horizon, do Miranda's loyalty mission, then a few sidequests to get Jack's activated, then Jack's loyalty mission. It's like this with almost all persuasion situations. If you time things right, you can pass all important persuasion situations with an equal amount of Paragon/Renegade points and both Paragon and Renegade options enabled. It's a bit tricky, but it can be done.

That doesn't make the complaint less valid, though. Roleplaying should not be limited for those who don't bother to work the system.

So, it's more like relative situation based how far you are with game and how much paragon you have collected that time. You could be right. It's still tricky like you self sayed.

PS: What you last comment means? Do You say that people who don't care what dialog choises they make, should have all paragon and renegade options to roleplay anyway? Even if they did not roleplay they dialog choises? That doesn't sound right.  Because you characters reality is based the dialog choises what you make. Or are you saying that player who makes both choise and is more like neutral should also have they own options?

I think that an attempt to persuade should be possible at any time. That's roleplaying. You should also be able to learn persuasion as a skill if it's important enough for you to get all options. And I think that the P/R meter should mainly reflect your decisions instead of limiting them with no way to counteract that.

Your Paragon and Renegade scores represent a mix of reputation, force of personality and skill. Reputation is gained by your decisions, force of personality you have by definition, and skills you can learn. The ME1 system reflected that rather well. Remove the restriction on placing skill points but keep the boni from your existing P/R score and it would be perfect.

[snfonseka]

Now you can vote for your opinion regarding this matter....



http://social.biowar...933/polls/6113/

[scorptatious]

Actually, I remember playing as Paragade FemShep who was mostly renegade and I was able to use a charm option to convince Tali and Legion to comprimise. I was unable to use an intimidate option even though my Renegade bar was slightly higher than my Paragon. So in my case, the requirement to use certain persuasion options is lenient for a Paragade Shepard.



Although I do agree somewhat, I hope they do bring back the Charm and Intimidate system from ME1 in ME3.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Just to throw that out there, I had the glitch happen to me as well. >.> it kind-of sucked, cause I didn't realize there was an option to talk to them after. Of course, it only happened once on one of my play through, resulted in me pigeon back to the beginning and re-doing everything cause I didn't want to lose either of them.

[Lumikki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think that an attempt to persuade should be possible at any time. That's roleplaying. You should also be able to learn persuasion as a skill if it's important enough for you to get all options. And I think that the P/R meter should mainly reflect your decisions instead of limiting them with no way to counteract that.

Your Paragon and Renegade scores represent a mix of reputation, force of personality and skill. Reputation is gained by your decisions, force of personality you have by definition, and skills you can learn. The ME1 system reflected that rather well. Remove the restriction on placing skill points but keep the boni from your existing P/R score and it would be perfect.

I know what you say, but I don't fully agree. Sure, ability allways do what you want as player is nice, but that's not how it works even in real world, so why game has to be different.

Let make example as this Miranda and Jack fight.

Now can anyone here say any reason why Shepard should be able to find ANY solution to they fight. I mean Miranda and Jack has they own personality and they don't have to listen Shepard even if he had best persuade skills possible. People here make assumption that players has to have able to reach conclusion what player want, beside what Shepard can do. It's like Shapard opinion is only one what matter, but that's not true in real roleplaying.

I hope you got what I sayed. What is why people think only positive outcome from player perspective is only roleplaying possibility. Getting disapoinment that you where not able to break the fight is just what Shepards has to be able to deal with.

So, because people aren't happy, they blame the system and request it to be changed.

Now what I do agree with you, is that game should not be just paragon OR renegade, but have more neutral special dialog options too. How ever, I don't believe where some persuade skill solves all problems and call it good roleplaying. If You also readed my post where I talked why some option is blocked, then you understand why ability allways have option to persuade isn't really good.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 mai 2010 - 03:37 .

[Hyper Cutter]

The system's a lot more lenient than most of you seem to think, at least if you import a save from ME1.



I've routinely been able to get a full Paragon bar and two segments worth of the Renegade bar and still resolve all conflicts successfully. In 7 playthroughs the only Paragon check I ever missed was resisting Morinth, and that only happened once...

[Bigdoser]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

The system's a lot more lenient than most of you seem to think, at least if you import a save from ME1.

I've routinely been able to get a full Paragon bar and two segments worth of the Renegade bar and still resolve all conflicts successfully. In 7 playthroughs the only Paragon check I ever missed was resisting Morinth, and that only happened once...

Same. Personally I think me2 system is better why should I play the game again just to pass a paragon check?

[Chuvvy]

Paragon and Renegade are stupid anyway. It should be more like DAO where you lose party approval.

[badkenbad]

Mass Effect 2 doesn't force you to do jack squat. That developer statement is misleading at best. I swear, people will take anything someone from Bioware says and treat it as literal gospel.

You don't have to game the system to keep your crew loyal. You just have to make smart choices. If you do stuff that would ****** off your crew, well, you're going to end up with some who aren't loyal.

Note that this Shepard is level 30, does not have max Paragon or Renegade, and has significant Paragon and Renegade scores. This Shepard is not an imported character. Also note that she sort of looks like Zoe Saldana.

Here's the proof (I have the save file, if you want it):

Modifié par badkenbad, 26 mai 2010 - 04:44 .